Can you please point out where God so indicated? Can you please point out the significance of Jesus' claimed words when He is supposed to have said that 'not a jot or tittle' of the "letter" would be changed until the heavens pass away?
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Study finds moral equality between religious and nonreligious
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Can you please point out where God so indicated? Can you please point out the significance of Jesus' claimed words when He is supposed to have said that 'not a jot or tittle' of the "letter" would be changed until the heavens pass away?
No, the results of this study were exactly opposite what you just said.
When confronted with a "new issue", it was found that there was NOT a great deal of difference between the religious and the secular.
Despite what you might WANT to believe.
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Hetta
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I am not surprised. I see evidence of this finding on this forum every day.
I wish I could read the full study. I will check if it is available yet on JSTOR because I have access to that.
I wish I could read the full study. I will check if it is available yet on JSTOR because I have access to that.
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stevevw
inquisitive
As I said I am not sure a survey of 1,200 people can be a good indication of how the majority think and behave. But some of the questions are not very specific to the difference in morals between religion and non religion. Like Both groups are very concerned about issues such as harm/care, fairness/unfairness, authority/subversion and honesty/dishonesty, she said. Those things are what everyone would think anyway regardless of religion. But if you asked a Christian how do you think that harm comes about the answer will be different from non religious people. Christians may say a lot of harm is caused by not living a good moral life according to God. The non religious person will say its because of other reasons that are man made and wont include any spiritual reasons. So we will al feel that harm is not good but that doesn't tell us anything about why or the causes that define our morals.
The surveys I have linked are much larger with some taking whole states into consideration. Though they dont break things down into thought patterns for that particular day or the last hour they do take into consideration behavior over a longer period. If that behavior show different results then something has caused them to think about things different to produce those results. Maybe we all think similar and religious people have more reason to do something about it. I am not sure but there is a difference that shows better outcomes for people who are associated with religion for physical, mental, emotional and financial aspects of life.
Why what do you think this survey is showing. Besides saying that there is not much difference in how non religious and religious people think about morals. What do you think this is saying.
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Why not? Do you have a reason to suspect the study lacked statistical power?
Yes. And?
So what? That's not the aim of this study.
More reason? Such as?
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Really? What do you know about statistical significance as it relates to sample size?
Be careful - there are people on this site who actually know what they're talking about with regard to statistical analysis.
Bingo! You've just agreed with the findings of the survey!
Who cares? The telling point is that people share a common moral consensus, regardless of whether they arrive at that point from a religious or secular background.
Again, you are demonstrating your very limited understanding of what it is that makes a study reliable - hint: size DOESN'T matter so much here, big boy.
Ummmmm - maybe that religious and non-religious people think about morals in much the same way?
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Jesus came to fulfill the true purpose of the law, not to abolish it. This was a sea-change in the way the law was to be understood. He actually expanded the letter of the law; hate =murder, lust=adultery, while at the same time introducing the true intent of it. This new understanding was given to his disciples, not to the multitudes.
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Ummmmm - maybe that religious and non-religious people think about morals in much the same way?
Woodpecker covered that in post #59.
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I didn't say they did. I said if you poll a group if Christians vs a group of atheists you will get different percentages who think abortion or gay marriage is immoral.
You're arguing against a point I didn't make.
Like when I say 'studies have shown atheists to be smarter than the religious', it doesn't mean all atheists are smart or all religious people are stupid.
You just have to understand how statistics work a little bit.
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Only if the question at hand can be specifically covered by that particular religion or religious text. If you move into neutral situations they cover morality not specified in the religion then morality of religious vs none is the same.
Example: imagine a train is rushing down the tracks and there are 5 men working on tracks around a corner who will get killed. You can divert the train to save the men, but in doing so the train will go off a cliff and the one person on board, the driver, will die.
Do you divert the train?
Religion doesn't cover questions like this, so there are no differences in answers.
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I was responding to your first statement,
"Religious people have shown to be different from non-religious on issues specifically judged by their religion ie abortion, gay marriage."
My point is that many Christians have very worldly attitudes about a variety of 'moral' subjects regardless of the position formally held by the church.
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Rhamiel
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what does this study count as "religious"?
believing that there is a god and maybe going to a church service 3 or 4 times a year, does that count as "religious"
we can talk about nonreligious being just as moral as Christians
but I do not remember any leper colonies being set up by atheists
or if "leper colony" is too medieval for you
we can look at the early days of the AIDs epidemic, when we were not really sure how it was spread
I know a priest who worked in the early 1980's as hospice for AIDs victims
or the guys who were in the news for getting Ebola, they were doctors, but they were also Christian missionaries
nominal Christians and atheists are both capable of being decent people
both are capable of being worthless slime balls
but at the end of the bell curve, we tend to see religious people as the heroic people
materialists lack the meta narrative
believing that there is a god and maybe going to a church service 3 or 4 times a year, does that count as "religious"
we can talk about nonreligious being just as moral as Christians
but I do not remember any leper colonies being set up by atheists
or if "leper colony" is too medieval for you
we can look at the early days of the AIDs epidemic, when we were not really sure how it was spread
I know a priest who worked in the early 1980's as hospice for AIDs victims
or the guys who were in the news for getting Ebola, they were doctors, but they were also Christian missionaries
nominal Christians and atheists are both capable of being decent people
both are capable of being worthless slime balls
but at the end of the bell curve, we tend to see religious people as the heroic people
materialists lack the meta narrative
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This thread is brilliant.
"What? That can't be right. You are an atheist, I am a Christian. Surely, I must be holier than thou." "Those Christians aren't real Christians. They are Christian in all the wrong ways. Surely, I am holier than they."
Love it.
"What? That can't be right. You are an atheist, I am a Christian. Surely, I must be holier than thou." "Those Christians aren't real Christians. They are Christian in all the wrong ways. Surely, I am holier than they."
Love it.
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Rhamiel
Member of the Round Table
I did not say they were not real Christians
I pointed out that nominal Christians would probably mess up this study
we are talking about statistics
lets take into account that less then 20% of Christians attend church services regularly
I am not trying to play the "no true Scotsman" game
but we CAN take that into account when looking at these numbers, right?
I pointed out that nominal Christians would probably mess up this study
we are talking about statistics
lets take into account that less then 20% of Christians attend church services regularly
I am not trying to play the "no true Scotsman" game
but we CAN take that into account when looking at these numbers, right?
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Right. Sorry m'Lord. Would you mind ducking down m'Lord? The rest of us can't see the sunlight with you looking down at us like that.
Actually, I had only arrived at page 5 or 6 when I posted. But, fine, fine. You are a better, nobler, holier, more humble Christian than all the rest. Is that better?
Is it indeed your contention that because you go to church, you are more moral than everyone else?
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Rhamiel
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I not saying that I am better then anyone else
I am saying that the large number of nominal Christians skews this study
neither the nominal Christian nor the nonreligious have Christianity as the center of their moral compass
the main agents of socialization would be the same
even more devout Christian have these agents of socialization in their lives so the effects of the shared culture would still be present there as well
I am saying that the large number of nominal Christians skews this study
neither the nominal Christian nor the nonreligious have Christianity as the center of their moral compass
the main agents of socialization would be the same
even more devout Christian have these agents of socialization in their lives so the effects of the shared culture would still be present there as well
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M'apologies m'Lord. but I believe you just did. I admit, as an atheist, I am a decent person. But you! As a church-going Christian, you're a hero!
Try making your point without contrasting to point out how you're better than everyone else.
Oh! So people who have Christianity as the center of their moral compass are better than everyone else. My mistake...wait isn't that the same thing?
Explain that to me again. What are the "effects of shared culture"? What is that third "agent of socialization?" I think that's the point you're going for, as it is your contention that we do not have all the same agents of socialization.
Again, it is your contention that people who go to church are better than people who don't?
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So you are fine with comparing "your" top 20% to "our" top 20%?
Or is your idea to compare your top 20% to our average joe?
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