NFL Religious Discrimination

bhsmte

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Police how, and by whom? Do you mean teammates giving him a stern talk in the locker room? Or do you mean opponents taking some liberties when tackling him?

And most leagues do regulate celebrations. Perhaps not to the same degree as the NFL, but a hockey player who makes a throat-slashing gesture after scoring a goal will likely be penalized and/or fined (for example).

Throat slashing gesture is beyond a celebration. Some hockey players have celebrations after scoring goals that would clearly get flagged in the NFL, same with baseball players hitting a homerun.

All sports as the level rises, have unwritten rules in regards to not embarrassing the other team and they always have. If a baseball player hits a home run and acts over the top, the dude is going to get "plunked" the next time he comes to bat for showing the other team up. The hockey player who shows up the other team, will see the other team take advantage of every opportunity to send a message, by hitting the player legally (and sometimes not) whenever possible.

I can understand a flag for a really over the top celebration, but as with other new infractions, the NFL has gone far beyond and taken out the human element of the game.
 
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RDKirk

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How many times does it have to be pointed out.

The act of going to one knee is not a celebration. It is allowed for any player, not just Christians.

Get it?

The very same act is allowed for everyone.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the original objection many years ago to "over the top" celebrations a matter of the "in your face" disrespect being shown in the more blatant cases?

It seems like since then they have attempted to define the issue objectively rather than leaving them to officials who "know it when they see it," and that has caused a "purpose drift."
 
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Skaloop

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Throat slashing gesture is beyond a celebration. Some hockey players have celebrations after scoring goals that would clearly get flagged in the NFL, same with baseball players hitting a homerun.

All sports as the level rises, have unwritten rules in regards to not embarrassing the other team and they always have. If a baseball player hits a home run and acts over the top, the dude is going to get "plunked" the next time he comes to bat for showing the other team up. The hockey player who shows up the other team, will see the other team take advantage of every opportunity to send a message, by hitting the player legally (and sometimes not) whenever possible.

I can understand a flag for a really over the top celebration, but as with other new infractions, the NFL has gone far beyond and taken out the human element of the game.

Hitting a player legally is something they should be doing anyway. "Sending a message" implies going beyond what would normally be expected.

I do agree that the NFL's strict regulations are over the top, but for a league facing image problems related to child and spousal abuse, as well as ongoing issues with concussions, it would not be sending a good message to start condoning (or at least accepting) vigilante justice on the field.

I don't follow football much at all, so I'll have to use a hockey example, but vigilante justice can lead to things like the Todd Bertuzzi/Steve Moore incident. Careers can be ruined over minor grievances if players are left to police themselves.
 
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bhsmte

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Hitting a player legally is something they should be doing anyway. "Sending a message" implies going beyond what would normally be expected.

I do agree that the NFL's strict regulations are over the top, but for a league facing image problems related to child and spousal abuse, as well as ongoing issues with concussions, it would not be sending a good message to start condoning (or at least accepting) vigilante justice on the field.

I don't follow football much at all, so I'll have to use a hockey example, but vigilante justice can lead to things like the Todd Bertuzzi/Steve Moore incident. Careers can be ruined over minor grievances if players are left to police themselves.

You don't think when some players cross the line, the players are motivated to hit them legally, just a little more or maybe just a little harder?

You will never stop the players policing themselves over some issues, no matter what the rules are. Player policing has been involved in all sports for over 100 years and will not go away and I am not referring to Todd Bertuzzi type of policing, which is actually criminal.
 
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Skaloop

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You don't think when some players cross the line, the players are motivated to hit them legally, just a little more or maybe just a little harder?

You will never stop the players policing themselves over some issues, no matter what the rules are. Player policing has been involved in all sports for over 100 years and will not go away and I am not referring to Todd Bertuzzi type of policing, which is actually criminal.

On that I agree. I live in Vancouver, so it was huge news here. And holy geez the Canuckleheads were twisting themselves into knots trying to support him when just a few years earlier they were calling for the head of McSorely over what was basically the same sort of incident (I was at that game, actually).
 
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bhsmte

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On that I agree. I live in Vancouver, so it was huge news here. And holy geez the Canuckleheads were twisting themselves into knots trying to support him when just a few years earlier they were calling for the head of McSorely over what was basically the same sort of incident (I was at that game, actually).

I played hockey through high school and baseball through college at the division one level. Hockey is my favorite sport (by far) and has a very unique culture, when compared to other sports and the fans are likely more passionate than any other American sport.
 
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keith99

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Throat slashing gesture is beyond a celebration. Some hockey players have celebrations after scoring goals that would clearly get flagged in the NFL, same with baseball players hitting a homerun.

All sports as the level rises, have unwritten rules in regards to not embarrassing the other team and they always have. If a baseball player hits a home run and acts over the top, the dude is going to get "plunked" the next time he comes to bat for showing the other team up. The hockey player who shows up the other team, will see the other team take advantage of every opportunity to send a message, by hitting the player legally (and sometimes not) whenever possible.

I can understand a flag for a really over the top celebration, but as with other new infractions, the NFL has gone far beyond and taken out the human element of the game.

Just a comment on unwritten rules as they relate to a generally accepted legend:

Have you heard of Babe Ruth's 'called shot'?

The cubs catcher claims that neither he not the pitcher saw any such gesture. That if they had Babe Ruth would not have hit a home run because the next pitch would have been at his head.

I believe him.
Babe Ruth's called shot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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bhsmte

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Just a comment on unwritten rules as they relate to a generally accepted legend:

Have you heard of Babe Ruth's 'called shot'?

The cubs catcher claims that neither he not the pitcher saw any such gesture. That if they had Babe Ruth would not have hit a home run because the next pitch would have been at his head.

I believe him.
Babe Ruth's called shot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I have researched Ruth's "called shot" and they even have film of that at bat if you look for it.

What Ruth was actually doing, was pointing at the Cub's dugout, not center field, because a bunch of guys in the dugout were giving him a hard time. The vast majority of people who have examined this claim, say he didn't point to center field and was only pointing at the guys in the dugout that were harassing him.

And yes, if a hitter pointed to call a home run, the next pitch, would most likely be chin music.
 
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keith99

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You don't think when some players cross the line, the players are motivated to hit them legally, just a little more or maybe just a little harder?

You will never stop the players policing themselves over some issues, no matter what the rules are. Player policing has been involved in all sports for over 100 years and will not go away and I am not referring to Todd Bertuzzi type of policing, which is actually criminal.

I played Rugby for decades. (yes decades played in the 70s, 80s, 90, and 2000s, may have gotten in a game or 2 in the 10s).

I know policing can go on. There was one club that played dirty, intentional taking out of the jumpers legs in the lineout. Today that will get you a red card and if it was as this club did it (an actual call in the lineout) it could lead to lifetime bans.

I suffered through that for one match, the next year I spent 2 weeks getting mentally prepared. I figured one such incident and I'd see how many I could out in the hospital.

Never happened. Next year things were totally changed. I figure they played some very physical side, perhaps islanders, who decided to take no prisoners.
 
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South Bound

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In the NFL, a player may not leave his feet in celebration of a touchdown or a big play. IE no other body part may touch the ground. EXCEPT, if you wish to pray then your knee may touch the ground. However, other celebrations that involve the knee touching the ground are not allowed. Jared Allen of the Vikings was told that his traditional 'calf roping' celebration of a sack was not allowed and he would be penalised 15 yards and received a fine.

However, as an employer, the NFL is required by american law to treat all employees equally with regards to religion.

"Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 ("Title VII") prohibits employers, except religious organizations 3 4 5, from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer. This means that:
  • Employers may not treat employees more or less favorably because of their religion.
  • Employees cannot be required to participate"or to refrain from participating"in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
  • Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
  • Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees.
  • Employers may not retaliate against employees for asserting rights under Title VII."
So in this case it seems clear to me that the NFL is not treating it's employees equally. It is allowing one behaviour for religious people that it is banning (and fining) for others.

Either everyone should be allowed to go on to one knee, or no one should be allowed to go on one knee. You can't discriminate because of religion (or lack thereof).

right?

This is why I prefer the old USFL. Celebrations in the end zone were not only allowed, but encouraged, because the league knew it was fun for the fans.

As a result - and I realize I'm the only one here who ever gave a rip about the USFL - there were group celebrations that had more dancing than an M.C. Hammer video.

((In case you were wondering - and I know you weren't - my team was the Birmingham Stallions led by Cliff Stoudt and Joey Jones...my brother still hasn't forgiven me for rooting for Joey Jones.))
 
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