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concretecamper
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Last time it was 3rd grade.....I wonder why it is so hard to keep his facts straight?
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Targaryen
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He's not interested in facts so much as in attempting to poke holes in every type of Roman doctine or dogma he can. The facts only interest him when it's a piece of old roman doctrine that isn't exactly followed by any roman church follower anymore, then he's all over it. It's thinking straight out of the troubles in northern Ireland or the 30 years war.
I'd like to think we as Christians have gotten past that work of Satan.
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Haven't you heard, it's a "mystery"
Colo 1:
26 The Mystery having been Hid from the ages and from the generations, now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him.
27 To-whom wills, the God, to make known any the riches of the glory of this, the Mystery, in the Nations,
which is Christ in ye, the hope of glory.
[Revelation 10:7]
http://www.christianforums.com/t7179509/#post47087799
Consubstantiation vs Transsubstantiation
Originally Posted by BigNorsk
The Lutheran View is probably best called the sacramental union.
We believe that Christ's body and blood are really present, not just spiritually present since scripture calls them the body and blood.
We also believe that the bread and wine are still present because scripture still refers to them after the institution.
.
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Albion
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If it were presented as a mystery you might have a point. But Transubstantiation isn't that.Haven't you heard, it's a "mystery"
It's a claim that this, which is a mystery only because it takes God to do it, can and must be understood by church members almost scientifically, and it comes with an elaborate, step by step, explanation.
If you think the official church position is "It changes. It's a mystery. Believe it. Period," you don't understand what the doctrine of Transubstantiation that was made official in the 13th century is all about.
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~Anastasia~
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I don't know when the last time I read a novel was, but you must admit that novels are usually more of the "light reading" category and a catechism ought to be read carefully to make sure one understands exactly what is being said, if one is taking the time to read it. It takes time for me to read a Baptist or Anglican catechism.
Of course, reading it less carefully MIGHT be the cause of some of these problems that crop up endlessly. Then again, it might be simple prejudice against the affiliation on the cover of the book.
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I suppose I have never really studied much on the difference between the EOC's and RCC's concerning the Eucharist
http://www.christianforums.com/t737371-3/
The Orthodox view on Transubstantiation
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MoreCoffee
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The reason for believing in the real presence is not hard to understand; it is because Jesus said it. But believing what Jesus said is very hard indeed.
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Albion
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Understood. The difference is basically just this--the RCC has defined how a priest can, by using the right words, change bread and wine into flesh and blood sort of like a magician might change lead into gold. You can see how this doctrine is cut right out of the age of chivalry. You can also appreciate why Luther complained that it wasn't mysticism that was driving the RCC in the late Middle Ages but magic, and that the two are not the same.
When it comes to the EO, we could say that the same change happens but they don't explain the mechanics by which it supposedly is accomplished.
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MoreCoffee
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It is incorrect to state, as you do Albion, that transubstantiation is not presented as a mystery. The glossary at the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
TRANSUBSTANTIATION: The scholastic term used to designate the unique change of the Eucharistic bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. “Transubstantiation” indicates that through the consecration of the bread and the wine there occurs the change of the entire substance of the bread into the substance of the Body of Christ, and of the entire substance of the wine into the Blood of Christ—even though the appearances or “species” of bread and wine remain.
The presence of Christ by the power of his word and the Holy Spirit
1373 “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church’s prayer, “where two or three are gathered in my name,” in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned, in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But “he is present... most especially in the Eucharistic species.”
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’—by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”
1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent, outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.
1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us “to the end,” even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us, and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:
, St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.’”
1373 “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church’s prayer, “where two or three are gathered in my name,” in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned, in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But “he is present... most especially in the Eucharistic species.”
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’—by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed.... Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”
1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent, outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.
1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us “to the end,” even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us, and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:
The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease.
1381 “That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that ‘cannot be apprehended by the senses,’ says St. Thomas, ‘but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.’ For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 (‘This is my body which is given for you.’, St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.’”Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore
Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
See, Lord, at thy service low lies here a heart
Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.
Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived;
How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
Truth himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true.
Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
See, Lord, at thy service low lies here a heart
Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.
Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived;
How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
Truth himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true.
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MoreCoffee
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When the question is about what the Catholic Church teaches then the proper answer is to let the Catholic Church speak for herself about what she teaches and believes.
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Originally Posted by By Faith Alone
Sheesh. Would be nice if everybody stuck to the INSPIRED writings.
Makes sense to me
.
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My point was that the agents of satan that claimed to turn their staffs into snakes were practicing deception.
You point out that God did a number of things in the Bible and that is true.
But making bread "bleed" and making statues cry, bleed, or produce oil is not on that list of things God does.
For that sort of thing you need to go to the magicians in Egypt.
in Christ,
Bob
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There is a "Greek influence" in that "The NT is written in Greek" but that is not the same thing as the "Greek influence" in favor of pagan gods.
The initial question in that thread was days of the week associated with Saturn, and the Sun.
So then we can all see the 7th day of the week made holy in Gen 2:1-3 -- where is the first day "of the WEEK" as a weekly holy day, weekly day of worship first (or ever) mentioned in the Bible?
If that too is a late post-NT development well then what is the origin seems to have been the thing that was questioned.
in Christ,
Bob
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