Discussion of Submission- Trial Thread

Sure, let's get the ball rolling. My wife and I have an egalitarian marriage. We share decisions making so we must compromise on issues where we disagree. I believe a compromise only works when the parties discuss from positions of similar authority. Where there is a power imbalance, it seems more like an appeal (like asking a judge) than a discussion to me.

So my questions are these: When practicing female submission where decision making authority resides with the husband, is it possible to legitimately compromise? How is it different from an appealing to an authority? Or, if it isn't different, do you see this as a positive or negative?

The Bible teaches that wives are supposed to submit to their husbands. Peter illustrates this by pointing out that wives are to be in subjection (Greek word for submit), even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord. So the word for obedience is used in reference to submission as well.

I mention that because I've seen egalitarians who don't know Greek trying to redefine hypotasso to be non-hierarchical. It's hard to argue when the Greek word for obedience is used.

Wives are also told to reverence/respect/fear their husbands, depending on how you translate it.

My wife and I usually make decisions together. She's always theoretically believed in wives submitting to husbands since we got married, but it didn't come natural to her. There are times we'd disagree and she'd nag or insist, which is basically a way to be the one in control. I remember throwing away a desk a few years back to get some peace which I still which I had because she wanted room for a crib, but we ended up moving to a new place and we probably should have kept it. (We were on a month to month lease.) That was when she was pregnant.

She was pretty moody during the pregnancy. For a while, every night there was an argument. Once I said something that shouldn't have made anyone angry. It wasn't insulting and I just couldn't figure out how it could make her get upset. It was weird. She disappeared. That was the first time she'd done something like that. But she was with an older friend from church who just listened and wasn't going to encourage anything bad. She called and told me and we agreed that she sleep out the night.

So I prayed a prayer request without about 7 detailed things, asking God to speak to my wife. My wife gets prophecies and words of knowledge, and she'd just told me how God had told her something about someone, and how that person confirmed that it was true in a conversation. So I thought, if God speaks to her about other people, He can certainly speak to her about herself. So I prayed about my prayer requests, detailed things, some of which I hadn't talked to her about. Conversations on similar topics weren't going anywhere. One of them was for her to see how interactions between her dad and step-mom gave her some wrong ideas about marriage, something I'd wanted to discuss with her during arguments, but the conversation never went that far. That's how detailed it was.

I wrote up the testimony way back when in detail on this forum.

So she went to this 'Life Change' program at church which is supposed to help people overcome past hurts, bad habits, bad thinking, etc. A few weeks before, my wife had dissed me while I was doing dishes, saying I was putting them into the dishwasher wrong, and bumped me to the side while grumbling. I thought that was so disrespectful. It occurred to me that I hadn't offered her much accountability on the issue except to try to bring it up during arguments when she was being disrespectful. I also realized I hadn't prayed for her enough about it.

So in her Bible study, they asked who had a problem with anger. She thought 'not me.' The leader of their group said if you get angry with your husband about how he does the dishes, you my have an anger problem.

So a couple of nights after my prayer, she asks me to sit on the couch. I thought uh-oh, she wants to argue. But she seemed to sweet. So she apologized to me and told me I was a good husband. She went through this incredibly long list of things the Lord had spoken to her about, 5 of the seven things I prayed. But I prayed sentences, and she had a page or two worth of things to say about each point.

Within the next few weeks, she said the Lord had spoken to her about the other two points I'd prayed and hadn't told her about.

After that, she went from grumpy pregnant to really sweet pregnant as far as her moods were concerned. She'd be standing around crying at times remembering a harsh word she spoke to me and she'd apologize.

After that, she started to embrace the idea of being submissive, something she'd agreed with in theory before but found difficulty in practice and something that she just wouldn't discuss before. She's been getting better in this area since.

My point here is that both in the Bible and in mine and my wife's personal experience with God and with the Holy Spirit, we see that God is in favor of wives submitting to their husbands.

As my wife explained it, she had such peace after she embraced submission. For me as a husband, we discuss most issues, but there is something about her having a submissive attitude that makes the marriage operate better and makes it more enjoyable for both of us.

Hypotasso is placing (of your own volition) yourself under someone else. Yes, women should do this with their husband. But the husband is not absolved from doing this with his wife. After all, there are verses to support hypotasso of men to their wives - one is the way they love their wife like Jesus loves the church by placing her ahead of himself (Eph. 5).

More importantly, our primary relationship with our spouse is brother and sister in Christ. So every principle in the Bible about how we should treat others, we need to start with our spouse. My favourite is in Philippians 2 (NASB, from Bible Gateway):
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [a]affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete [b]by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing [c]from [d]selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Verse 3 says to place others above yourselves. That applies in marriage as well as with our children, parents, friends, community. For men, it starts with your wife. For women, it starts with your husband. This is mutual submission. And submission is always, always, always voluntary. It is up to me to submit to my husband; it is not up to him to tell me that I need to submit - nor should it be his expectation. Our responsibility is hypotasso for ourselves, not making sure others hypotasso us, since that would mean we are not placing others over us; rather, we expect them to place us over them. Wrong. That is not God's intent.

Current research that supports this godly mutual submission is Dr. John Gottman's research, where he found that shared power between husband and wife is one of the principles that keeps marriages together and happy.

vincenticus said:

So my questions are these: When practicing female submission where decision making authority resides with the husband, is it possible to legitimately compromise? How is it different from an appealing to an authority? Or, if it isn't different, do you see this as a positive or negative?

Click to expand...

I can't tell.....did Link answer these questions?

mehhh.

That's all I've gotta say on the whole subject.

vincenticus said:

Sure, let's get the ball rolling. My wife and I have an egalitarian marriage. We share decisions making so we must compromise on issues where we disagree. I believe a compromise only works when the parties discuss from positions of similar authority. Where there is a power imbalance, it seems more like an appeal (like asking a judge) than a discussion to me.

So my questions are these: When practicing female submission where decision making authority resides with the husband, is it possible to legitimately compromise? How is it different from an appealing to an authority? Or, if it isn't different, do you see this as a positive or negative?

Click to expand...

We tend to think more along the lines of you and your spouse. The H seems to feel the authority/submission equation tend to be a cultural norm more than anything. The 'old' fashion way of doing things as he says. Which is kind of funny, because he tends to be 'old fashion' when it comes to most things.

Yet, he tends to feel that people place their own spin on what submission or authority means. When authority is described in such a way that you could erase it, and replace it with the world 'power over' or just plain 'da boss'? Human's have a way of abusing that privilege, and when in that type of dynamic there really isn't any true way of appealing anything.

I personally find compromising and a more egalitarian level more work, but very fulfilling personally.

vincenticus said:

So my questions are these: When practicing female submission where decision making authority resides with the husband, is it possible to legitimately compromise? How is it different from an appealing to an authority? Or, if it isn't different, do you see this as a positive or negative?

Click to expand...

A married man seeks to please his wife. That's one of the advantages of celibacy, but if a man marries, it is a good and normal thing for him to seek to please his wife.

If a man loves his wife, he is concerned with her well-being. So even in a complementarian marriage, if the husband loves his wife and seeks to please her, then there is likely to be some compromise, negotiation, or whatever you call it. If there is no agreement or if the wife wants something the husband who loves his wife doesn't consider to be good for her, the family, etc., then he may make a decision for the family and exercise his headship role in the relationship that way. This is a time when the woman has an opportunity to submit to her husband.

I suppose some husbands are more authoritative and proactive in making decisions, etc. In some cases, I don't think that's bad. Some couples are couple than that. Every couple is different and every individual's personality is different.

mehhh x 2

ValleyGal said:

And submission is always, always, always voluntary. It is up to me to submit to my husband; it is not up to him to tell me that I need to submit - nor should it be his expectation. Our responsibility is hypotasso for ourselves, not making sure others hypotasso us, since that would mean we are not placing others over us; rather, we expect them to place us over them. Wrong. That is not God's intent.

Click to expand...

Would you turn that around and say that a woman should never remind her husband to love her as Christ loves the church?

Leviticus 19 teaches the people to love their neighbors. It says to rebuke your neighbor frankly lest you share in his sin. (The latter half of Ephesians 4 appears to be commentary on Leviticus 19.)

The Bible teaches children to obey their parents. They should choose to do so. That doesn't mean that parents can't remind them of their responsibility. Servants are to obey their masters. In modern times, preachers often apply this principle to employees in the workplace. Is it wrong for a Christian manager to remind his employees of their duties?

The general teaching of the New Testament is that believers are supposed to admonish, encourage, and exhort one another to do what's right. Why should a wife submitting to her husband be exempt from this general principle?

The disciples were to choose from their own hearts to obey Jesus. But Jesus told them if they loved Him, they would keep His commandments. He said they were His friends if they did what He commanded Him. If Jesus was allowed to tell His disciples to obey Him and fulfill their responsibility, why would it be wrong for a husband to remind his wife of her responsibility in the marriage?

HannahT said:

We tend to think more along the lines of you and your spouse. The H seems to feel the authority/submission equation tend to be a cultural norm more than anything. The 'old' fashion way of doing things as he says. Which is kind of funny, because he tends to be 'old fashion' when it comes to most things.

Yet, he tends to feel that people place their own spin on what submission or authority means. When authority is described in such a way that you could erase it, and replace it with the world 'power over' or just plain 'da boss'? Human's have a way of abusing that privilege, and when in that type of dynamic there really isn't any true way of appealing anything.

I personally find compromising and a more egalitarian level more work, but very fulfilling personally.

Click to expand...

I personally believe that is why it is such a touchy subject. I believe that when submission and authority are discussed we typically put a cultural understanding on the word. It is my belief that typically the word is translated to our understanding in a finite way however we miss the spirituality. For example when I speak of leadership I am not really speaking of "I'm the boss." I think we get that from a capitalistic system where the boss or the leader is the one with all the power. However we need to remember what a great leader looks like. Leadership to me is not a position of elitism. It's placing yourself at a spiritual position as a man to be willing to sacrifice one's life in service of one's family, it's killing personal desires for the betterment of those you lead, it's living by an example and it's cultivating and building up those around you for greatness in the spiritual sense. Being a leader is really a position of service and sacrifice and denying yourself for those you lead. It is never and I mean never the king telling the peasants what to do. God gave us freedom I think it's absurd to believe that man should have the right to take that away.

I believe that submission is a beautiful thing. Submission is not bring a person a plate, it's not cleaning the house, it's not staying home when you really want to work. I think submission is honoring the position of leadership, it's accepting that the leadership has your best interest and only wants the best for you. I think that type of realization comes with an attitude change. To me submission is all about you attitude not about what you decide. I think submissions might just be allowing something the leadership said to make you think even if you decide it's wrong. Man is not God

Originally Posted by ValleyGal
And submission is always, always, always voluntary. It is up to me to submit to my husband; it is not up to him to tell me that I need to submit - nor should it be his expectation. Our responsibility is hypotasso for ourselves, not making sure others hypotasso us, since that would mean we are not placing others over us; rather, we expect them to place us over them. Wrong. That is not God's intent.


By Link
Would you turn that around and say that a woman should never remind her husband to love her as Christ loves the church?

Leviticus 19 teaches the people to love their neighbors. It says to rebuke your neighbor frankly lest you share in his sin. (The latter half of Ephesians 4 appears to be commentary on Leviticus 19.)

The Bible teaches children to obey their parents. They should choose to do so. That doesn't mean that parents can't remind them of their responsibility. Servants are to obey their masters. In modern times, preachers often apply this principle to employees in the workplace. Is it wrong for a Christian manager to remind his employees of their duties?

The general teaching of the New Testament is that believers are supposed to admonish, encourage, and exhort one another to do what's right. Why should a wife submitting to her husband be exempt from this general principle?

The disciples were to choose from their own hearts to obey Jesus. But Jesus told them if they loved Him, they would keep His commandments. He said they were His friends if they did what He commanded Him. If Jesus was allowed to tell His disciples to obey Him and fulfill their responsibility, why would it be wrong for a husband to remind his wife of her responsibility in the marriage?

Click to expand...

I think that it would be rare that a wife telling her husband that scriptures tell him to love her as Christ loves the church would produce the spirit that Christ is looking for. By the same token it would be rare that a woman would respond in the spirit that Christ wanted if the husband told her that scriptures tell her to submit to him.

Most of the time I see this scripture quoting going on it is predicated within a somewhat combative mood. When that is present then the quoting of scripture is going to be taken in a defensive posture and not as Christ intended.

“The general teaching of the New Testament is that believers are supposed to admonish, encourage, and exhort one another to do what's right. Why should a wife submitting to her husband be exempt from this general principle?”

Click to expand...

I do not think that it should be exempt for him or her but the admonishing, encouraging, and exhortation should be in the right spirit and in the right time with discernment. This is absolutely critical and rare; IMO.

If a committed Christian husband or wife, that is familiar with scriptures, does not make the decision in the right spirit to strive to please God and their spouse based upon the word of God, then the word of mankind is probably not going to do much except inflame the situation.

Submission and love has a whole lot to do with self-will, the heart, and spirit of the individual. There is a place for admonishing, encouraging, and exhortation but without the heart, self-will, the right spirit and discernment, mankind’s use of this scripture will probably not produce what Christ intended.



Thank you LilLamb for listening to the members on this forum

Avniel said:

I personally believe that is why it is such a touchy subject. I believe that when submission and authority are discussed we typically put a cultural understanding on the word. It is my belief that typically the word is translated to our understanding in a finite way however we miss the spirituality. For example when I speak of leadership I am not really speaking of "I'm the boss." I think we get that from a capitalistic system where the boss or the leader is the one with all the power. However we need to remember what a great leader looks like. Leadership to me is not a position of elitism. It's placing yourself at a spiritual position as a man to be willing to sacrifice one's life in service of one's family, it's killing personal desires for the betterment of those you lead, it's living by an example and it's cultivating and building up those around you for greatness in the spiritual sense. Being a leader is really a position of service and sacrifice and denying yourself for those you lead. It is never and I mean never the king telling the peasants what to do. God gave us freedom I think it's absurd to believe that man should have the right to take that away.

I believe that submission is a beautiful thing. Submission is not bring a person a plate, it's not cleaning the house, it's not staying home when you really want to work. I think submission is honoring the position of leadership, it's accepting that the leadership has your best interest and only wants the best for you. I think that type of realization comes with an attitude change. To me submission is all about you attitude not about what you decide. I think submissions might just be allowing something the leadership said to make you think even if you decide it's wrong. Man is not God

Click to expand...

Sadly, the power over type of circumstance is what you hear about in one way or another in many circles. To me its quite odd, because in a sense they are making the man (to twist a term form a movie) a 'mini' God (mini me in the movie). When you call them on it? They get defensive, and start labeling people. I've seen to many ministries do this, and its damaging all the way around. I mean then they complain about the response they get. Its mind boggling, because the disconnect is so huge.

When you listen to stories about damage that has been done within the church? Its normally over some huge power struggle, and the 'elites' at the top are telling people to obey them and hush. Hinting that questioning them is questioning God himself. (again the 'mini' God circumstance)

They are mocking about their approach, and respond in silly ways like: Do you don't think obeying authorities in a good thing? Children shouldn't listen to parents, etc? This is used to setup the discussion on how to obey your husband. Don't you dare color outside the lines of this discussion, or you are labeled once again. Tunnel vision is used instead of discernment, and loving discussion. Their approach is like the term you used - the capitalism attitude.

I've seen good and decent leadership, and they aren't worried about someone having a gift that is used to serve others (even a woman). They feel blessed that God sent them a person to use to help his Kingdom.

The polar opposite of that? Feel that person (especially if it is a woman or child) is USURPING their authority (has you mention the capitalism attitude). lol I remember my grandmother's church basically hinting to women (Southern Baptist) to dumb down some gifts, talents, etc so they didn't threaten anyone. Again its all about the those in authority, and they completely bypass that those gifts and talents were to be used for the service our Lord - yet it is perceived as a threat to insecure men. They completely miss the point. God's people want to serve him, and that means everyone. Instead of acting a like grown up, and realizing this? They pander to hurt feelings, and irrational fear. Sadly, they use their position to shut down any discussion.

Thankfully, this type of attitude is not everywhere. Yet, there is far to many of them. People in position of leadership do have a moral obligation to call out that type of behavior, and yet prefer niceties instead. The bible pretty much states that we are to deal with those within the fold of the church, and yet its far more popular to shoot arrows at the culture or world.

I'm just thankful that God has placed people (including many men) in my life that respect me as fellow human, and realize pulling rank is a show of disrespect no matter how well you people wish to sugar coat it. Delivery on these issues is everything, because if it rots? People won't hear you, nor the message that the Lord wishes them to deliver.

Its always more popular to blames the masses, instead of maybe looking at ourselves. lol the church in many cases has that in common with the world. That's why they see them as no different than any other hypocrite! Yet, the church loves the excuse that the bible states we will be hated so no inner reflection is needed.

From what I have experienced in my life? Those that have true leadership gifts don't toot their horns, and they are able to use that gift to persuade - not dictate. They don't always win the debate, and are open minded to the direction.

I find there is a very fine line.

I'm too lazy to read every post and respond to every point, so I'll just say what I think and what applies to my own marriage.

I believe that God created men to be leaders. I believe that God created women to be supporters. I believe that these are general rules that apply in most cases, and that societies work best where this is practiced, and that there can most certainly be exceptions.

I do not believe leaders are better or smarter or more worthwhile than supporters. I do not believe men are "above" women in terms of value as human beings or participants in society. I believe that without support, a leader can't succeed.

I believe that God created men to lead their families. The word "lead" is not synonymous with "dictate" "rule" or "dominate". A leader realizes that without his support, he is nothing and has nothing. Therefore, he needs to conduct himself in a manner that inspires his wife to respect, trust, and follow him.

I am not in the least intimidated by the concept of my husband being the leader of our family. Leading means that he takes on a huge amount of responsibility, he initiates decision-making conversations that include my input, my advice, and oftentimes, my corrections. All major decisions are discussed together, with both parties getting equal input, but he is often the one to execute the decided action. My husband is not smarter than I am or better than I am. I am absolutely confident in who I am and the knowledge that I don't need him to exist, survive, and have purpose. I choose him as my husband and the leader of my home.

I hope this post makes sense.

By Inkachu
I hope this post makes sense.

Click to expand...

It makes a LOT of sense!
What you wrote are some of the reasons that my wife and I have over 40 years of marraige and a very close reltionship with our children.

I think every marriage is going to be different- I think that also every marriage has some definition of submission in it.

For my husband and I, we both agree that my husband is the leader of the family, but that I can pull a what we call a "wife card" on him. Yes- we have a "husband card" and a "wife card" system that we use and respect. (He used his husband card to invite friends over today to play a board game and I used my wife card to have him clean up the house himself (I'm sick right now) and set a time limit of 7pm - we're both happy with how it turned out since we first started with basically yelling at each other about if people can come over )

We also know and use our God-given abilities and skills to make this marriage work. He's really good at calling around to get information and handing stressful situations. I'm really good at fixing things, planning how to do something, making a budget, etc. So each of us does what we can to make the marriage work- he's handling the fixing of my car and I made a budget to figure out how we will pay for it and not have to ask anybody else for money. I have to submit to him deciding how the car will get fixed and he submits to me based on how we will pay for the car getting fixed (he couldn't buy a new board game that he wanted and probably won't be able to for another month or two).

I know there are more traditional Christian viewpoints (and liberal viewpoints) on how wives should submit, but this is what works well in our marriage and I still think follows the guidelines set up in the Bible.

My advice to young husbands would be to skip reading vs. 22-24 of Ephesians 5 when reading your Bible. That part is addressed to wives. You're not a wife. Don't worry about that part. You need to focus on vs. 25 and following. That's more than enough for you to be able to handle.

Don't accuse your wife of being belligerent if she refuses to do what you tell her. She is to submit to the office of husband, not to our own personal egos. More often than not, when my wife defied me, it was because I was doing something that was detrimental to our family. Sometimes, the most "submissive" thing a wife can do is to tell her husband he's wrong.

YMMV, but after 20 years of marriage, this is what has come to work for us.

Its like this see...

Won't I Lose My Voice in the Marriage if I Respect and Submit to My Husband? - YouTube

I listened to most of the video, and to me she describes common courtesy majority of the time. Yes, I realize she threw some Christian language in there, but most of what she said should be applied to most of us.

I would assume most would agree to the below, and there is not gender deal.

Don't freak out, and trust God
Throw out your idols and put your trust in God and not other things
Putting your trust in God, so that you are unshakable no matter what happens.

Others are pretty much something that everyone could work on:

Don't Lecture, and argue
Stop instructing the partner on what to do: How do it, why to do, etc
Blaming the partner, scolding, sigh and rolling your eyes, showing contempt
Watch your angry tone of voice
Stop Controlling others or try changing them
Talking like you are always right, and they are always wrong

How we die to ourselves - not for the spouse, role, etc - but because its God Honoring. We do it for him.

Because gracious to your spouse by thanking them for all they do
Showing them appreciation to them
Listen to them, and appreciate their opinions, views, etc
Discern if your spouse asks something of you - if
Our views are different - not wrong
Accept them for who they are - and how you admire them
Build your partner up by using your words

We all should work on these things, and we need to remember that we will all fail from time to time. We are sinners, and will be while on this earth.

In a nutshell, we are to do the best we can towards our spouse and family - or world in general. Respect and honor others as fellow humans.

The quaint notions of a quiet woman of piety being the way to be have long since been discarded - Autumnleaf

Click to expand...

The above is what makes me giggle about you! I would watch that critical spirit! That long discarded notion you actually found in a video!