Introduction to 2P2P

Interplanner said:

B2,
I don't know where the quote came from above at 118 about the exception stones of the temple. I believe you have mis-pasted. You mention #112 but it is not the #112 here.

I don't do that whole business that way. You are imposing your mindless literalism on me about the stones of the temple that stayed in place. Misses the whole point of what Mt24 is about.

I don't believe Mt24 skips off to the future and ignores the major disaster that took place shortly. Not a chance.

Please make a post acknowledging that you have totally mucked this quote and myself up.

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B2 quoted correctly inter.

The entire part said from me was-

No. What is said, 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Till all these things G fulfilled- meaning all verses minimum between 1-33. When analyzed and attempting to understand one will grasp that the generation in question is the one who will see all those events transpire. This does not mean that the prophecy can not start early but finish later-I.e majority of the temple has it's stones not laying upon another- but if a few remain the clock has not truly started. However I've yet to ever read or see all of that prophecy being fulfilled as exactly outlined.

KrAZeD said:

B2 quoted correctly inter.

The entire part said from me was-

No. What is said, 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Till all these things G fulfilled- meaning all verses minimum between 1-33. When analyzed and attempting to understand one will grasp that the generation in question is the one who will see all those events transpire. This does not mean that the prophecy can not start early but finish later-I.e majority of the temple has it's stones not laying upon another- but if a few remain the clock has not truly started. However I've yet to ever read or see all of that prophecy being fulfilled as exactly outlined.

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How do you know that they were not fulfilled in the generation of Christ, Krazed? The book of Matthew was the book of the generation of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1.)


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Rev20 said:

How do you know that they were not fulfilled in the generation of Christ, Doug? The book of Matthew was the book of the generation of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1.)


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Okay, you got me mixed up with another poster. I will answer just the same.

"How do you know that they were not fulfilled in the generation of Christ, Doug?"

Because we are sitting here arguing about. When those things are fulfilled, Jesus will be here on earth reigning and ruling from Jerusalem, and no one is going to be arguing over those prophecies have been fulfilled or not.

Douggg said:

Okay, you got me mixed up with another poster. I will answer just the same.

"How do you know that they were not fulfilled in the generation of Christ, Doug?"

Because we are sitting here arguing about. When those things are fulfilled, Jesus will be here on earth reigning and ruling from Jerusalem, and no one is going to be arguing over those prophecies have been fulfilled or not.

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Sorry, Doug. I fixed it.

We are debating this subject because futurists refuse to believe the plain words of Christ. Many refuse to even believe the gospel was preached in all the world before Paul wrote the book of Colossians, even though Paul said it was literally fulfilled, in several different ways.

It is about agenda, Doug. Old habits die hard.


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I'm only going to touch on 2 parts of your response since those are all that really matters.

Rev20 said:

Everyone thinks their doctrine is the best, Krazed. I personally think your doctrine hasn't a leg to stand on.

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Regardless what you feel about anyone's doctrine- if you purposely forgo just one word of scripture, your view and understanding will always lack. I will point out for food for thought, when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and attacked with scripture- it was the clever guise of misusing-adding and taking away from scripture that He was presented with (same with Eve)- every word from God is important- regardless if you feel it's not interpreted easily, NEVER DISCARD HIS WORD.

So frankly until you can utilize all 100% of canon in your personal view, you will never have "that leg to stand on".

You are confusing the Words of Jesus Christ, which I quoted or paraphrased, with mine, which I did not quote or paraphrase. These are the words of Christ that you do not like:

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Fine I'll refute you with only scripture (verse 27) which is the other view of Matt 15:24--
mark 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.


Again- children first- the rest later. Jesus came for just more than the Lost sheep- which you define as the remnant tribes of Israel.

Though majority of believers understand lost sheep as a generalization of those without God.

Yet scripture here is contradicting your view. Though before I read to much into something that might G wrong- do you feel Jesus ONLY came for the remnant of Israel, or He came for all mankind. Your Isaiah 61:1-3 is extremely lacking for an answer.

Interplanner said:

Sorry but the quote sounds like B2. I would have said that the clock started in 457 BC and kept running. It is so obvious that the events of Dan 9 are found in the DofJ; they have the feel, the grit, the coherence.

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And kept running, why? If a generation is not to pass until all was fulfilled then rationally their are only 2 solutions keeping accordance with God not lying or confusing.
1) someone from that generation is still alive today
2) something has not happened in fulfillment regarding that prophecy, negating the clock of "that generation" not passing.

While I suppose you could claim an option 3 of it all transpired and the world were currently living in is Jesus kingdom and he is ruling with a rod of iron. Though my belief in God being righteous and truly just prevents me from even fathoming that notion. If God threw satan out for disobedience, how can he in turn let us live the current way society is in this "kingdom".

KrAZeD said:

Fine I'll refute you with only scripture (verse 27) which is the other view of Matt 15:24--
mark 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

Again- children first- the rest later. Jesus came for just more than the Lost sheep- which you define as the remnant tribes of Israel.

Though majority of believers understand lost sheep as a generalization of those without God.

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Krazed, those are not my words. They belong to Jesus Christ. He said this:


And when he sent his disciples out, he specifically instructed them to avoid the Gentiles and Samaritans:


It was not until Acts 10 that Jesus turned his disciples loose to go after the Gentiles. Therefore your notion that the term "lost sheep" is a generalization is not biblical.
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KrAZeD said:

Yet scripture here is contradicting your view. Though before I read to much into something that might G wrong- do you feel Jesus ONLY came for the remnant of Israel, or He came for all mankind.

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John said that he was sent to save the world, and he was not sent to condemn it. But it appears that, to save the world, he first had to gather the lost sheep, because he (Christ) said those were the only ones he was sent to during his ministry; and he sent his disciples only to the lost sheep for the first part of their ministries.
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KrAZeD said:

Your Isaiah 61:1-3 is extremely lacking for an answer.

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Well, Jesus thought it was important enough to read it in the synagogue to the people of Nazareth where he was raised:


And what does the passage say? The Lord has anointed me to do these things. That sounds like a mission statement to me. The list in Isaiah is more detailed, and that is why I presented it, rather than the Luke version.

What do you think his mission was?


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BABerean2 said in post 120:

Literal or Spiritual?

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Note that Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 can't be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

Is Satan an actual reptile or is the term "dragon" a symbol for Satan?

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Satan is a literal, 7-headed, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), who could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, he will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future war in heaven at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"YHWH said that he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.

"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

Is Satan bound with a chain made of steel or is it a spiritual chain made of Christ's sweat, blood, and pain?

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The binding of Satan by an angel in Revelation 20:1-3, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), will involve Satan being bound with a literal, spiritual chain, just as the bottomless pit, which at that time Satan will be cast down into and locked within, is a literal, spiritual place.

In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

If Christ destroys death at his Second Coming, will some people continue to die during the millennium?

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Note that Christ won't destroy death at his 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 15:26 refers only to when the first death will be cast into the 2nd death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will be after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24), and it will include everyone who won't be part of the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which will be before the future millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

If Christ destroys sin at his Second Coming, how will there be an uprising against him at the end of the millennium?

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Note that Christ won't destroy sin at his 2nd coming. For Luke 17:27,29 and Matthew 24:39, for example, don't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Regarding the final judgment of the unsaved, when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

If Christ is ruling and reigning on Earth, why would he allow Satan to be released, since he was already defeated at the Cross?

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Note that Satan wasn't bound at the Cross, and Christ could allow him to be released after the future millennium to show how rebellious unsaved mankind can be, even after 1,000 years of divine, physical rule.

Are you thinking of, for example, Matthew 12:25-29? If so, note that the "strong man" isn't Satan himself, but refers to "strong man" individual demons/unclean spirits which possess individual people. Compare the strength of the individual demon in the individual man in Acts 19:13-16, who had the strength to overpower 7 men. Satan himself remains unbound, walking about freely on the earth (1 Peter 5:8). He won't be bound and locked down in the bottomless pit, by an angel, until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

Similarly, John 12:31b means that because of what Jesus did at his first coming (Hebrews 2:14), Satan "shall", in our future, first be cast out of heaven permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-17). Then, later, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), Satan will be bound and cast down beneath the earth's surface, locked within the literal bottomless pit, for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2-3). Then, after the 1,000 years and the subsequent defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-9), Satan will be cast into the lake of fire to remain there forever (Revelation 20:10). The lake of fire will be outside New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Similarly, in Colossians 2:15, the original Greek word (apekduomai: G0554) translated as "spoiled" doesn't mean that Satan has been "disarmed", or "bound". For he still employs weapons (Ephesians 6:16), and he is still walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Colossians 2:15, like the similar Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8b, makes no reference to the "binding" of Satan with a chain and his being "shut up", i.e. enclosed within, the literal bottomless pit by an angel (Revelation 20:1-3). For this won't occur until Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

In Hebrews 2:14, the original Greek word (katargeo: G2673) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to make of none effect" (Romans 4:14b). Hebrews 2:14 means that Jesus' death made Satan's power of none effect spiritually over obedient Christians. Similarly, in 1 John 3:8, the original Greek word (luo: G3089) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to break" (Ephesians 2:14). 1 John 3:8 means that Jesus came to break Satan's workings from having any spiritual effect over obedient Christians.

Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict that Satan can still wield his power physically over even obedient Christians, even to the point of killing them (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Similarly, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict that Satan can still wield his deceiving spiritual power over both disobedient Christians and non-Christians (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10), while during the future millennium, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:3).

BABerean2 said in post 120:

Does Christ's rule stop at the end of the 1,000 years so that Satan can make war again against the Saints?

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No, for the unsaved will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10).

Rev20 said:

Krazed, those are not my words. They belong to Jesus Christ.

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Yet we find ourselves viewing what would appear a contradiction of His purpose.

Forgive me for I am horrible at grammatical breakdowns.

In the kjv the question is - what is but? An adjective,conjecture, proposition, or an ADVERB? Modern translations show the usage of the word "only" which would vindicate "but" being used as an adverb (*a little more later).

-24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Whom was Jesus talking to? His disciples - vs 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Which is important because verse 24 is not a rebuke to the woman, but for his disciples. He is telling his disciples He is NOT only here for the house of Israel's lost sheep; As in He was here for all sheep, to pay the ultimate sacrifice for all humanity; which contradicts none of scripture.

Remember ye not Him praying unto the father for anything other than becoming crucified? Luke 22:42, regardless what you attempt to cite, Jesus knew prior to coming to earth He was going to do the Fathers will and pay humanities sacrifice of sin atonement- He came not only for the house of Israel, but For you, me, and those of Israel descendants - that is what I am standing on.

Vs 25 she approaches and worships, proceeds to ask for Help vs 26 Jesus comments towards her, in a nutshell, informing her it is not time for the Gentiles yet; which restates Gentiles were part of those He'd come to save.

Now-Unto being archaic for "to" and "but" being an adverb (defined usage as only) we wind up with a verse reading.....I am not sent "only" (adverb) "to"(unto) the lost sheep......

To view anything other than Jesus being sent for 100% of all mankind is a scriptural contradiction of John 3:16 gen 3:15. I don't and have not disagreed He was sent to Israel first, however Israel was not the only ones He came for- He came for all sinners, all those who were no more righteous than the scribes or Pharisees.

*Now as for other current versions and their translations- it becomes a contradiction to the concept Jesus came to pay for all man kinds sins. If He was only here for the remnant tribes of Israel, then He did not have to die on the cross for that was not his mission- He could allow those "lost sheep" remain lost like the Gentiles then, all He needed to do was gather those willing to believe on Him and just forgive their sins- mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; Matt 9:2; Luke 17:19 John 8:11.

Though modern translations are removing the "not" and "but" and swapping/combing placements to create an easier to read rendition.

However as I was told, it depends on which transcript they pull from and how one chooses to interpret the double mantras in the passage. Supposedly it is not one of the easier ones to break down-15:24 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ or if they include the accent marks on corresponding words.

Though I will presume I'll stick with "but" being an adverb, and the passage staying in tune with the entirety of Jesus' mission of redeeming all man, while you will remain stuck to Jesus coming only for Israel and not for Gentiles as well.

Krazed, you've taken Ebedmelechs, Rev20s, BABs, and Interplaners, reading into things to a whole other level. I doubt I've seen a distortion of Matt. 15:24 like yours in some time...

But the principle is the same as there's induct a premise too soon and then deduce from the passages whatever will make said erroneous premise's case...

Danoh said:

Krazed, you've taken Ebedmelechs, Rev20s, BABs, and Interplaners, reading into things to a whole other level. I doubt I've seen a distortion of Matt. 15:24 like yours in some time...

But the principle is the same as there's induct a premise too soon and then deduce from the passages whatever will make said erroneous premise's case...

Click to expand...

Then explain- either He came only for Israel or for all mankind. If He came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel then what about the Gentiles- were they to get ignored? The passage must not contradict any of scripture- coming only for Israel contradicts the purpose of Christ. If you think you can explain otherwise go for it- I listen wether I agree or not.

KrAZeD said:

Yet we find ourselves viewing what would appear a contradiction of His purpose.

Forgive me for I am horrible at grammatical breakdowns.

In the kjv the question is - what is but? An adjective,conjecture, proposition, or an ADVERB? Modern translations show the usage of the word "only" which would vindicate "but" being used as an adverb (*a little more later).

-24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Whom was Jesus talking to? His disciples - vs 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Which is important because verse 24 is not a rebuke to the woman, but for his disciples. He is telling his disciples He is NOT only here for the house of Israel's lost sheep; As in He was here for all sheep, to pay the ultimate sacrifice for all humanity; which contradicts none of scripture.

Remember ye not Him praying unto the father for anything other than becoming crucified? Luke 22:42, regardless what you attempt to cite, Jesus knew prior to coming to earth He was going to do the Fathers will and pay humanities sacrifice of sin atonement- He came not only for the house of Israel, but For you, me, and those of Israel descendants - that is what I am standing on.

Vs 25 she approaches and worships, proceeds to ask for Help vs 26 Jesus comments towards her, in a nutshell, informing her it is not time for the Gentiles yet; which restates Gentiles were part of those He'd come to save.

Now-Unto being archaic for "to" and "but" being an adverb (defined usage as only) we wind up with a verse reading.....I am not sent "only" (adverb) "to"(unto) the lost sheep......

To view anything other than Jesus being sent for 100% of all mankind is a scriptural contradiction of John 3:16 gen 3:15. I don't and have not disagreed He was sent to Israel first, however Israel was not the only ones He came for- He came for all sinners, all those who were no more righteous than the scribes or Pharisees.

*Now as for other current versions and their translations- it becomes a contradiction to the concept Jesus came to pay for all man kinds sins. If He was only here for the remnant tribes of Israel, then He did not have to die on the cross for that was not his mission- He could allow those "lost sheep" remain lost like the Gentiles then, all He needed to do was gather those willing to believe on Him and just forgive their sins- mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; Matt 9:2; Luke 17:19 John 8:11.

Though modern translations are removing the "not" and "but" and swapping/combing placements to create an easier to read rendition.

However as I was told, it depends on which transcript they pull from and how one chooses to interpret the double mantras in the passage. Supposedly it is not one of the easier ones to break down-15:24 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ or if they include the accent marks on corresponding words.

Though I will presume I'll stick with "but" being an adverb, and the passage staying in tune with the entirety of Jesus' mission of redeeming all man, while you will remain stuck to Jesus coming only for Israel and not for Gentiles as well.

Click to expand...

I believe you are trying to condense the eternal mission of our Eternal Father into His 3.5 years of Ministry on earth. Why not simply take Him at his word. That is what I do. The fact that He turned right around and sent his disciples to the exact same people, led me to believe that there was more to it than meets the eye; and I have learned things I have never heard preached, or written, by men, because I did not dwell on whether it was fair, or not; but rather on, why did he say it?

Why would Jesus say such a thing? Because he had to fulfil some prophecy? This refers to the first recovery:


This is the second:


Other prophecies of the recovery:



That still does not answer the question, why? Well, maybe he needed those particular people to help him establish and organize his church, and to serve him in his holy city and temple; or maybe there was an even more important reason.

This is where he first mentioned their destiny, and the fulfillment:



John said he was a member of that royal priesthood:


Those were the chosen generation, the royal priesthood, and are the Saints of the most High. But this, I believe, is the primary reason he was sent only to them: because they could be trusted to spread the Gospel to all the world and to every creature, come hell or high water.

Did Christ get "sidetracked" on occasion because of his compassion? Of course. But I would never assume that his mission was anything other than what he said it was; nor was he sent to anyone other than to whom he said he was.


.

KrAZeD said:

Then explain- either He came only for Israel or for all mankind. If He came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel then what about the Gentiles- were they to get ignored? The passage must not contradict any of scripture- coming only for Israel contradicts the purpose of Christ. If you think you can explain otherwise go for it- I listen wether I agree or not.

Click to expand...

Christ's earthly ministry was to Israel. His death was for everyone!

Interplanner said:

River,
the "earthly" category is a bit too general. The atonement, for ex., had to be an earthly person and yet benefits all. He said so. And he said in Jn 10 that there were sheep from other folds he'd bring in. He was also on earth, resurrected, for the teaching for 40 days. I think what you mean is a segment of his ministry was aimed at getting Israel to do certain things.

Click to expand...

Do a study in Isaiah and Ezekiel on said "sheep." THEIR definition of both, said "lost sheep," and THEIR "shephard," go through Romans 1 to about 2:16. THEN view Ephesians 2, in light of that.

If you're objective, you'll find that said "other sheep" were not and are not the Gentiles, as Genesis through Acts 8, is Ephesians 2:11, 12's "Time PAST," the Gentiles WITHOUT God in the world." In fact, not sheep, but "dogs," Mark 7.