Why Does It Matter?

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

drstevej said:
It's not a fallacy if Mormonism is Joe-made.

Argumentum ad hominem.

drstevej · Sep 22, 2014

Ran77 said:
Argumentum ad hominem.

Nope, Smith's character and honesty is quite germane. His forgery of the Book of Abraham has been rejected by a number of Egyptologists.

Eight Scholars on Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham Translation

In his 1912 publication of "Joseph Smith, Jr., As a Translator," J.S. Spaulding solicited the views of eight scholars regarding Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham translation. Below are excerpts from their comments:

"It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud."

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford, England

"I have examined the illustrations given in the 'Pearl of Great Price.' In the first place, they are copies (very badly done) of well known Egyptian subjects of which I have dozens of examples. Secondly, they are all many centuries later than Abraham."

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie, London University

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

"The 'Book of Abraham,' it is hardly necessary to say, is a pure fabrication."

Dr. Arthur C. Mace, Assist. Curator, Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY, Dept. of Egyptian Art

"The plates contained in the 'Pearl of Great Price' are rather comical and a very poor imitation of Egyptian originals."

Dr. John Peters, Univ. of Pennsylvania

"...the explanatory notes to his facsimiles cannot be taken seriously by any scholar, as they seem to be undoubtedly the work of pure imagination."

Rev. Prof. C.A.B. Mercer, Ph.D., Western Theological Seminary, Custodian Hibbard Collection, Egyptian Reproductions.

"The Egyptian papyrus which Smith declared to be the 'Book of Abraham,' and 'translated' or explained in his fantastical way, and of which are three specimens are published in the 'Pearl of Great Price' are parts of the well known 'Book of the Dead.' Although the reproductions are very bad, one can easily recognize familiar scenes from this book."

Dr. Edward Meyer, University of Berlin

"A careful study has convinced me that Smith probably believed seriously to have deciphered the ancient hieroglyphics, but that he utterly failed. What he calls the 'Book of Abraham' is a funeral Egyptian text, probably not older than the Greek ages."

The Book of Abraham | Mormonism Research Ministry

Joe-made revelation discredits the Mormon claim of "restoring" Christianity. Mormonism is Joe made.

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

Eight Scholars on Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham Translation

In his 1912 publication of "Joseph Smith, Jr., As a Translator," J.S. Spaulding solicited the views of eight scholars regarding Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham translation. Below are excerpts from their comments:

"It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud."

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford, England

"I have examined the illustrations given in the 'Pearl of Great Price.' In the first place, they are copies (very badly done) of well known Egyptian subjects of which I have dozens of examples. Secondly, they are all many centuries later than Abraham."

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie, London University

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

"The 'Book of Abraham,' it is hardly necessary to say, is a pure fabrication."

Dr. Arthur C. Mace, Assist. Curator, Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY, Dept. of Egyptian Art

"The plates contained in the 'Pearl of Great Price' are rather comical and a very poor imitation of Egyptian originals."

Dr. John Peters, Univ. of Pennsylvania

"...the explanatory notes to his facsimiles cannot be taken seriously by any scholar, as they seem to be undoubtedly the work of pure imagination."

Six of the eight experts drstevej quoted are themselves offering the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. I'm not sure what fallacy is represented when a person relies on a logical fallacy to support their argument. I'm sure one exists though.

drstevej · Sep 22, 2014

Ran, what are your credentials in Semitic languages?

Hammster · Sep 22, 2014

Ran77 said:
If I answered that question I would open myself to being reported for directing comments at a person rather than a topic. I find it in poor taste for anyone officially connected to the forum to repeatedly ask me to do this.

It wouldn't be a violation unless you flamed me. I'm pretty up on the rules.

So, are you concerned about my eternal state?

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

drstevej said:
Ran, what are your credentials in Semitic languages?

This is the logical fallacy known as a Red Herring. It distracts the audience by switching to a seperate argument. The statements you provided and to which I made commentary on were in English. No knowledge of the Semitic languages is necessary to correctly identify that six of your experts quotes consist of Argumentum Ad Hominem.

I don't know if 2ducklow's comment is true for the forum at large, but I am seeing a pattern with your posts that give me cause to wonder if it is true in your case.

:o

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

Hammster said:
It wouldn't be a violation unless you flamed me. I'm pretty up on the rules.

So, are you concerned about my eternal state?

I have given my reason. You have chosen to not respect it. The continued harassment even after I have expressed my concern about responding just further confirms the correctness of my decision to reject whatever doctrines and beliefs that you have to offer.

:o

drstevej · Sep 22, 2014

Ran77 said:
This is the logical fallacy known as a Red Herring. It distracts the audience by switching to a seperate argument. The statements you provided and to which I made commentary on were in English. No knowledge of the Semitic languages is necessary to correctly identify that six of your experts quotes consist of Argumentum Ad Hominem.

I don't know if 2ducklow's comment is true for the forum at large, but I am seeing a pattern with your posts that give me cause to wonder if it is true in your case.

:o

Well then, lets take the other two. Care to claim you are a better person to analyze Egyptian papyri that these scholars? How's your semitics acumen?

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

drstevej said:
Well then, lets take the other two.

Okay. Go ahead and point them out.

drstevej said:
Care to claim you are a better person to analyze Egyptian papyri that these scholars?

Another Red Herring. I have made no claim, one way or another, about how my knowledge of Egyptian compares to anyone else. This is a distraction, possibly even an inference that borders upon an Argumentum Ad Hominem.

Regardless of which logical fallacy best fits it, it does not involve any useful information as part of a discussion. An honest discussion does not benefit from this sort of goading.

drstevej said:
How's your semitics acumen?

Falls into the same category as above. Not helpful in discussing the topic, really only useful in mocking the other person involved by making light or belittling their skill set.

2ducklow is looking more astute in his observation with every post you make.

drstevej · Sep 22, 2014

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

----

I'll go with his assessment rather than the perceived elevation of temperature in one's bosom.

drstevej · Sep 22, 2014

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

----

I'll go with his assessment rather than the perceived elevation of temperature in one's bosom.

Ran77 · Sep 22, 2014

drstevej said:
"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

----

I'll go with his assessment rather than the perceived elevation of temperature in one's bosom.

I asked for one of the examples that was not an Argumentum Ad Hominem but that is what you gave me anyway. When you hit 19 out of 20 you will have reached that 95% that 2ducklow mentioned. Although, just for your posts and not the forum at large.

:o

Hammster · Sep 23, 2014

Ran77 said:
I have given my reason. You have chosen to not respect it. The continued harassment even after I have expressed my concern about responding just further confirms the correctness of my decision to reject whatever doctrines and beliefs that you have to offer.

:o

Your concern about responding is unfounded. As a staff member, I can assure you that you'd response to my question will not be a violation. If it were, then my question would also be in violation because it would be baiting. But since this thread is in the Debate and Discussion area, it's not baiting. And it's not harassment since I'm continuing a discussion you've initiated.

So, are you concerned about my eternal state? Or maybe more in general if you'd like, are Mormons concerned about the eternal state of non-Mormons?

drstevej · Sep 23, 2014

Ran77 said:
When you hit 19 out of 20 you will have reached that 95% that 2ducklow mentioned. Although, just for your posts and not the forum at large.

:o

et tu, Ran?

Moodshadow · Sep 23, 2014

Ran77 said:
Off topic. This thread is not about the history of the LDS Church. Please move your discussion of that topic to the proper thread.

Thank you.

This thread is not supposed to be about several unrelated comments you have volunteered yourself. Why are you singling mine out and not moving your own off-topic posts to different threads, to set a fine example?

Thank you.

whitebeaches · Sep 23, 2014

Mod Hat On

This thread has undergone a little clean up due to the violation of the Flame Rule. It is quite possible another clean up may take place. If you noticed a post of yours missing it was removed in the clean up.

Please remember to stay on topic of the Original Post and please remember to address the post only and not the poster. Everyone loves a good debate but let's keep it civil. Thank you.

Mod Hat Off

Ran77 · Sep 23, 2014

Just as a reminder to everyone, the original question in the OP was answered and I switched to this discussion:

If you worship a view of God that is not true how does that change, or negate, the fact that you actually love Him? Please, provide Bible passages that support your claim.

Thank you.

Anto9us · Sep 23, 2014

This is the first passage that comes to mind regarding people who "worship a view of God that is not true"

Rom 10:1

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 10:2

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

These people that Paul refers to HAVE A ZEAL FOR GOD -- so I assume they love God

They are just not correct in their ideas about God

Ran77 · Sep 23, 2014

Anto9us said:
This is the first passage that comes to mind regarding people who "worship a view of God that is not true"

Rom 10:1

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 10:2

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

These people that Paul refers to HAVE A ZEAL FOR GOD -- so I assume they love God

They are just not correct in their ideas about God

Okay. That seems reasonable. But it would mean that having an incorrect view of God does not negate the fact that a person actually loves Him. Which is fine. I'm glad to hear opinions on either side of the debate, I just want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly.

Hammster · Sep 23, 2014

Ran77 said:
Okay. That seems reasonable. But it would mean that having an incorrect view of God does not negate the fact that a person actually loves Him. Which is fine. I'm glad to hear opinions on either side of the debate, I just want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly.

Having an incorrect view of God is not the same thing as having a made up god. The Jews thought they knew God, but since they rejected Christ, they rejected the Father. Some, however, came to believe that Jesus was Messiah, and wee saved.

That's not the same thing as Mormons co-opting scripture and making up their own god.

Why Does It Matter?

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Psalm 144:1

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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Psalm 144:1

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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