The Rapture + Soul Sleep

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

GoingByzantine said:
... God is life, he would not let souls be covered by darkness. Need extra proof:

Mat 22:31-32
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. How is it that God can be "God" to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if they are dead? After all he is God of the living only. Are you seeing the logical flaw here? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive with God in heaven, that is why God is there God. Many other saints are also alive with the Lord as well.

Also, if nobody is in heaven? Then who is in the army spoken of in Rev. 19:14?

Yes, God is the God of the living, which is why He said of those who/which die [not the second death, but the death of sleep] "in the Lord" [Rev 14:13], for these "live unto Him" [Luke 20:38], for He is able to resurrect from the grave and decay,

John 11:11 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

John 11:14 - "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

Will one word of Jesus contradict another? Never, John 10:35, "scriptures cannot be broken". Therefore, we see that Lazarus was indeed "dead", but not in the "Second death" [Rev 20, etc], but that death of sleep, which comes from the Sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. If it were not for His promise to come and die, and be raised again, Adam would have perished and been gone, forever, then and there in his sin, but thanks be to God, of His great mercies towards us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus speaking of the resurrection at the last trump [generally speaking], in which those which died, and are gone to their sleep, shall be awakened from the sleep of death and brought to life again, said:

Luke 20:37 - "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

It is to these that shall not see death [being the second death].

There are some humans in Heaven, like Enoch and Elijah [both translated/taken alive and glorified], and Moses [resurrected and taken and glorified], and some others at Jesus own resurrection [Matthew 27:51-52], aka "the firstfruits" or "wavesheaf" were taken with Jesus in his resurrection and ascension. They are not ethereal, not incorporeal, but as tangible as you or I, even as Jesus.

Others in Heaven are many, not humans, the unfallen angels and beings [Rev. 12:12], hence Jesus is called Lord of Hosts, and Sabaoth, Captain/Ruler of the LORD's [Father's] Hosts, Arch-Angel, etc. Jesus came with ten thousand times ten thousand of his "saints" [holy ones, the angels] at Mt. Sinai... He comes at the end with all his Holy Angels...

Matthew 25:31 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

MrMoe · Sep 17, 2014

GoingByzantine said:
It's not "prayers to the dead", the only way that would be true is if soul sleep was true. It is not.

Why would someone pray to the dead? It makes no sense if you think about it. It would be like talking to a brick wall and expecting the brick wall to talk back...Unless by "'dead" they meant "passed on into the spirit realm"
Which is what the word means in Deuteronomy 18:11. It's the only way that verse makes sense since there is no such thing as soul sleep.
God clearly forbids communication with the dead which is what Catholics do when they pray to saints.

God forbids calling on the dead

Timothew · Sep 17, 2014

yogosans14 said:
Soul sleep is a dangerous heresy invented by the SDAs. The early church never supported such a heresy.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to use the "Bad Company" Fallacy.
Ad Hominem (Guilt by Association)

SDAs also believe that God created the world. This must also be a dangerous heresy which the early church never supported.

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2014

BobRyan said:
Do you believe that Martin Luther and all others in this list are "SDA"?? or "Catholic"??

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John Stott,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]N.T. Wright - St Andrews,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]F.F Bruce (Manchester Univ. U.K.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Michael Green. British scholar author "Evangelism in the New Testament"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]E.E. Ellis - Southwestern Baptist Theol Seminary[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Philip E. Hughes - Westminter Theo Seminary, Reformed Theol Seminary[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thomas Olbricht - Pepperdine Univ. Abaline Christian Univ[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John McRay - Wheaton Graduate School[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John Stackhouse - Regent College - Vancouver (replaced J.I. Packer)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Dale Moody - Southern Baptist Theol Seminary Louisville[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John Franke - Biblical Seminary - Hatfield Penn[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Homer Haley - Church of Christ - Abilene Christian College[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thomas Robinson - Union Theol Semin. Princeton Theol Semin. Pepperdine[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Clark Pinnock - New Orleans Baptist Theol Semin[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John Wenham - Evangelical - Anglican pioneer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Richard Bauckham - Cambridge[/FONT]

ViaCrucis said:
Let's consider at least one of those names on that list. The one that I recognize the most, N.T. Wright

Let's do.

TIME: Is there anything more in the Bible about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead?

Wright: We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well.
In Defense of the Faith Apologetic Ministry » Blog Archive » N. T. Wright Interview: Christians Wrong About Heaven

You seem to have missed that point in Wright's teaching.

I didn't.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2014

BobRyan said:
The one quoting 1Thess 4 claims he is not a Seventh-day Adventist - so arguing that only a Seventh-day Adventist would quote 1Thess 4 does not work.

=================================================
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lords word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those verses make it VERY clear. A "rapture" type of event will happen

===================================

It is impossible to blame John 11 and 1Thess 4 on SDAs as if that makes sense just because one does not approve of what the text says.

Mama Kidogo said:
And not one verse speaks of the soul. So I'll stick with body sleep.

They all speak of the "person" -- and as we know "God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul" Gen 2.

But if you insist "the soul that sins - it shall die" Ezek 18:4 (A reference to the second death not the first death".

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

in Christ,

Bob

GoingByzantine · Sep 17, 2014

Shiny Gospel Shoes said:
Yes, God is the God of the living, which is why He said of those who/which die [not the second death, but the death of sleep] "in the Lord" [Rev 14:13], for these "live unto Him" [Luke 20:38], for He is able to resurrect from the grave and decay,

John 11:11 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

John 11:14 - "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

Will one word of Jesus contradict another? Never, John 10:35, "scriptures cannot be broken". Therefore, we see that Lazarus was indeed "dead", but not in the "Second death" [Rev 20, etc], but that death of sleep, which comes from the Sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. If it were not for His promise to come and die, and be raised again, Adam would have perished and been gone, forever, then and there in his sin, but thanks be to God, of His great mercies towards us in Christ Jesus.

If we look just a little further in John, Jesus refutes soul sleep.

John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mama Kidogo · Sep 17, 2014

BobRyan said:
They all speak of the "person" -- and as we know "God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul" Gen 2.

But if you insist "the soul that sins - it shall die" Ezek 18:4 (A reference to the second death not the first death".

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

in Christ,

Bob

Sorry. It's the body that sleeps until the Resurrection. There are no dead saints or Saints.

ViaCrucis · Sep 17, 2014

BobRyan said:
Let's do.

You seem to have missed that point in Wright's teaching.

I didn't.

in Christ,

Bob

I think you might have missed the part where Wright said that we are conscious, and experiencing the presence of the Lord between death and resurrection. Which is rather the opposite of "soul sleep".

Unless the meaning of soul sleep itself has changed since I last looked it up.

Does soul sleep now mean that between death and resurrection we are consciously experiencing the presence of the Lord? Because that kind of seems like the exact opposite of soul sleep.

-CryptoLutheran

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

GoingByzantine said:
If we look just a little further in John, Jesus refutes soul sleep.

John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Brother, please re-read what was stated beforehand, and look at the context itslef in what you are stating, since it is speaking of the second death [of which a faithful enduring follower of Jesus cannot die of], even as it is contrasted with eternal life, and it is also speaking about the resurrection of Lazarus, who indeed was "dead", as Jesus stated "asleep", but not dead in the second death from which there is no returning to life/living.

Indeed, notice in your own citation, "yet" [future tense], "shall" [future tense] "he live", even as Lazarus was to be raised shortly, "though he were dead" [asleep, "sleepeth", as Jesus saith].

Lazarus was in the grave, dead [not second death, but sleep death] four days. This is where Jesus called him "forth" from.

The faith of the follower of Christ is in the hope of their resurrection.

Read John 14:1-3, slowly.

John 14:1 KJV - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 KJV - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 KJV - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:4 KJV - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

All of Scripture, speaks of this sleep of death in the grave, followed by their respective resurrection, not an immediate entrance to Heaven upon ones death. Peter in his epistles goes over this again and again.

Here men die in Christ Jesus, all of the time, yet, they are not to be "hurt of the second death", but only that death of sleep, from which they are going to be awakened unto immortality, even very shortly.

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
I could be writing to you from the other side of the rapture ....

I could be sending this post as proof that there is no soul sleep ....

Well according to you - there is a way we can know for sure if you are doing that. You suggest that the witches such as the one in 1Sam 28 (and her "familiar spirit" of course) are not to be questioned in the claims that they make regarding their ability to get the dead to talk.

And heaven knows there are plenty of people practicing that craft still to this day. Should we be asking them if indeed that is what you are doing?

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2014

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The one quoting 1Thess 4 claims he is not a Seventh-day Adventist - so arguing that only a Seventh-day Adventist would quote 1Thess 4 does not work.

=================================================
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lords word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those verses make it VERY clear. A "rapture" type of event will happen

===================================

It is impossible to blame John 11 and 1Thess 4 on SDAs as if that makes sense just because one does not approve of what the text says.

Originally Posted by Mama Kidogo

And not one verse speaks of the soul. So I'll stick with body sleep.

They all speak of the "person" -- and as we know "God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul" Gen 2.

But if you insist "the soul that sins - it shall die" Ezek 18:4 (A reference to the second death not the first death".

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.
============================================

Notice that in that quote of John 11 - Christ did not say "our friend Lazarus's BODY sleeps - I go that I may wake IT".

Rather it is "our FRIEND Lazarus" that sleeps.

The body stinks and decays in the grave -- reducing to dust over time.

It is not "preserved".

But the soul is preserved in a dormant state in death - Matt 10:28.

The body is "killed" Matt 10:28 in the first death. It is not "asleep".

The body that sleeps can be seen each evening - when you go to sleep. You are not as Christ said of Lazarus "dead".

Mama Kidogo said:
Sorry. It's the body that sleeps until the Resurrection.

You believe that in spite of John 11, Matt 10:28, 1Thess 4, 1Cor 14, Matt 22 -- not because of it.

There are no dead saints or Saints.

John 11 "Lazarus is DEAD".

1Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ shall rise first".

in Christ,

Bob

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

ViaCrucis said:
I think you might have missed the part where Wright said that we are conscious, and experiencing the presence of the Lord between death and resurrection. Which is rather the opposite of "soul sleep".

Unless the meaning of soul sleep itself has changed since I last looked it up.

Does soul sleep now mean that between death and resurrection we are consciously experiencing the presence of the Lord? Because that kind of seems like the exact opposite of soul sleep.

-CryptoLutheran

Scripture says, none are conscious in the death of sleep:

Psalms 146:2 - While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Psalms 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

[As a PS, in understanding of this, consider Psalms 146:3, more closely, and not only does it speak in regards to the living, but also to the deceased, for they cannot help anyone, not even themselves]

Speaking of the one which died and went into the grave:

Job 14:21 - His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Consider:

Job 14:8 KJV - Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;

Job 14:9 KJV - [Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

Job 14:10 KJV - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?

Job 14:11 KJV - [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

Job 14:12 KJV - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 14:13 KJV - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 KJV - If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 KJV - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

That "call" is found in 1 Thesslonians 4:16, even by the "voice" of Jesus Christ, as it is also written "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:25

Mama Kidogo · Sep 17, 2014

BobRyan said:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
The one quoting 1Thess 4 claims he is not a Seventh-day Adventist - so arguing that only a Seventh-day Adventist would quote 1Thess 4 does not work.

=================================================
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those verses make it VERY clear. A "rapture" type of event will happen

===================================

It is impossible to blame John 11 and 1Thess 4 on SDAs as if that makes sense just because one does not approve of what the text says.

Originally Posted by Mama Kidogo
And not one verse speaks of the soul. So I'll stick with body sleep.

They all speak of the "person" -- and as we know "God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul" Gen 2.

But if you insist "the soul that sins - it shall die" Ezek 18:4 (A reference to the second death not the first death".

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.
============================================

Notice that in that quote of John 11 - Christ did not say "our friend Lazarus's BODY sleeps - I go that I may wake IT".

Rather it is "our FRIEND Lazarus" that sleeps.

The body stinks and decays in the grave -- reducing to dust over time.

It is not "preserved".

But the soul is preserved in a dormant state in death - Matt 10:28.

The body is "killed" Matt 10:28 in the first death. It is not "asleep".

The body that sleeps can be seen each evening - when you go to sleep. You are not as Christ said of Lazarus "dead".

You believe that in spite of John 11, Matt 10:28, 1Thess 4, 1Cor 14, Matt 22 -- not because of it.

John 11 "Lazarus is DEAD".

1Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ shall rise first".

in Christ,

Bob

Well Mr. Ryan. Seeing you say our souls and bodies are together sleeping in the grave, explain how we can be absent from the body and present with the Lord. I'll not fall for the sleeping in Jesus answer as this verse says "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
..."ABSENT FROM THE BODY".

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Claim: [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We are confident, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I say[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please read the context of 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and generally misquote it, either in practice or in their heads, and forget what he says elsewhere. Let's consider what Paul does say:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many ofter innocently misquote, either verbally or recite in their head]:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] "2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The substitution of the and with is is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read is, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To be absent from the bodyIS [=]to be present with the Lord, like unto the mathematical equation 2+2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word kai [and] means all the difference here.

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is "then" that those which died in the Lord shall be present with the Lord, as it is said it is then, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] If we had immortal souls that never die, what then is swallowed up of life? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trunp".

Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4]. Not individually as we die, fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thy dead men shall live,together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5[/FONT]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul clearly says:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]That word appearing is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23[/FONT]

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
... "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][2] Notice also another very key to this text, which is in 2 Corinthians 5:5,7, speaking about "faith", and earnest[ness] that is waiting for the reality of the Resurrection, not of actual "sight" or of obtaining immediately upon one's death.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] God, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. 2 Corinthians 5:5[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul knew that he would not enter into Heaven, until his resurrection, which would not happen in his own day of dying, but in the Day of the LORD,
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]That ye be not soon shaken in mind... as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2;p[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Peter says the same in all his Epistles, which we may yet come to later.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][3] Paul will not contradict himself, and also in the light of :[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35;p[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
For Paul knew the Scriptures:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]His breath goeth forth, hereturneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If he set his heart upon man, ifhe gather unto himselfhis spirit and his breath; Job 34:14[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when ourrest together is in the dust. Job 17:16[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. Job 21:23[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. Job 21:25[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Job 21:28[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. Job 21:32[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, naked, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being clothed upon [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Acts 17:18[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Notice that he did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the wisdom of this world.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] "... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleologyand the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yet Paul preached the Resurrection ...
[/FONT]

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
... "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".
'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

Yet Paul preached the Resurrection:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of the hope and resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] I am called in question.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Acts 23:6[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Acts 24:21[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For if we have been [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]planted together in the likeness of his death[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], we [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shall be also [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in the likeness[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] resurrection[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Romans 6:5[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:12[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Corinthians 15:13[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For since [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]by man [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] death[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], by [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]man [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] also the resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. 1 Corinthians 15:21[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So also [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] the resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. It is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]sown in corruption[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; it is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]raised in incorruption[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: 1 Corinthians 15:42[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians 3:10[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:35[/FONT]

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
... "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

Paul understood:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This current house [mortal] and that one to come at the resurrection [immortal, swallowing up death with eternal life], and there is no house [except the grave; Job 4:19, Job 17:13; Isaiah 26:19; Nahum 3:19; etc] inbetween, only death [unclothed], asleep, awaiting the resurrection.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When did Paul himself expect that to be? At "that day", being "the last day", even at "the last trump", at the very "appearing" [this word is used of Christ's Second Advent/Coming] of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Glory, coming in Power and Glory:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:9[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And again,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When?[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul knew what even Job stated:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God. Job 19:26[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold... Job 19:27;p[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For notice the question that Job asks:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well when "man dieth... where [is] he?"

And how does he answer?:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So too, we "fail" and "decayeth" and "drieth up" and are returned unto "dust"...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] ...hide me in the grave, ... keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, ... appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13;p [The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee... Job 14:15;p[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Job knew he would die, return unto dust, and 'wait' in the grave, in death, unconscious, knowing nothing, until Jesus called him forth in the resurrection "at the last day" when the "trump of God" shall sound, and then he would answer that call to immortal life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
... "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][4] Let us see a similar passage in Romans 8, in which Paul explains that we are "waiting" for our freedom from the "bondage of corruption" [our current mortal body], when we "at the last trump" shall be "clothed" with that immortal one, the only 'inbetween' would to be the grave, which is death, asleep, without consciousness, in the grave, awaiting as Job would be and still is, etc:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:21[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][5] In Genesis 2:7:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And the LORD God formed man ofthe dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrilsthe breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We see how mankind was created a living soul, by being made of two things, which combined, made a third whole [dust of the earth [lifeless] + breath of life of God breathed into the nostrils = living soul, the whole living being], and understanding that, helps us all to further understand what happen in [1st] death.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The only reason there is even these deaths [plural] at all, instead of instant destruction to man, is because of Christ Jesus, the promise of His life and sacrifice, our surety from the very beginning:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul knew this, why then don't most Christians? Because the doctrine of the 'immortal soul/spirit' is one of the two main pillars of the doctrines of the devil, for it allows him access to almost anyone on earth through various means of deception. That is why God forbids spiritism.[/FONT]

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
... "ABSENT FROM THE BODY".
...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Notice[/FONT]:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"... Moreover, I pointed out to you that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]some who are called Christians[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2260[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] For I choose to follow not men or mens doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]some who are called Christians[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]who do not admit this [truth][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2261[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; who [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]say[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] there is no resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]do not imagine that they are Christians[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2262[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Galilæans, Hellenists,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2263[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. ...[/FONT]

2261[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]i.e., resurrection.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] ..." [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXXX [80]] - [/FONT]http://www.ccel.org/...ii.iv.lxxx.html

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's paganistic teachings:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - Annihilationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]William Tyndale (1484-1536),[/FONT]

English Bible translator and Martyr
In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue: The Supper of the Lord After the ... - William Tyndale - Google Books

Tyndale,. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

In yet another section:

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118

John Frith (1503-33),

associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

Martin Luther (1493-1546)

German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760

George Wishart (1500-1546),

Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.
Wishart was Charged in "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern - Johann Lorenz Mosheim - Google Books

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography - William Thomas Whitley - Google Books

John Milton (1608-1674),

"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - The Prose Works of John Milton ...: With a Preface, Preliminary Remarks, and ... - John Milton, James Augustus St. John - Google Books

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Sep 17, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
...absent from the body...

And finally, but by no means all,

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.
It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.
It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.
It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.
It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.
Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.
Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.
Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.
It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.
It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.
It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.
It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism. - Heresy

Martin Luther:

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis Enarrationes in Genesin, 15351545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (14831546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96] - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elsewhere Luther states that:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/FONT]

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