Way To Go Cardinal George!!!!!

S.ilvio · Sep 12, 2014

Defensor Christi said:
Abortion IS as bad as the suffering in Iraq and Syria...perhaps even worse!!! Forcing Catholics (and other Christians) to fund such evil is absolutely SPOT ON!!!

Wrong thread. This is about a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, our Church, looking for a cheap dig at the Gay lifestyle lobby by using the sufferings of out brethren in Islamic regimes that follow the Sharia...

Defensor Christi · Sep 12, 2014

S.ilvio said:
Wrong thread. This is about a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, our Church, looking for a cheap dig at the Gay lifestyle lobby by using the sufferings of out brethren in Islamic regimes that follow the Sharia...

Perhaps its titled that way, probably to get a big bang out of reaction...but the Cardinal also noted..

"The cardinal then noted that Americans who objected on religious grounds to the Obamacare mandate on contraceptives, sterilizations, and abortion-inducing drugs, were chastised by many in the media, including the liberal Huffington Post, which claimed the opposition, and the six Catholic judges on the Supreme Court, raised concerns about the compatibility between being a Catholic and being a good citizen.

Funny how that part was completely ignored...

S.ilvio · Sep 12, 2014

As probably one of the most vocal advocates for unborn life in OBOB, I take offence when people, Cardinals or not, look for a headline and use the suffering of our brethren in doing so...

JacktheCatholic · Sep 12, 2014

S.ilvio said:
Wrong thread. This is about a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, our Church, looking for a cheap dig at the Gay lifestyle lobby by using the sufferings of out brethren in Islamic regimes that follow the Sharia...

Where is any of this written? Or, it seems, you are reading into this something that does not exist or that you choose to see through assumption, unless there is another point of view I am over looking? Certainly, not common sense??? Besides... this Bishop is due a level of respect by all Catholics, as Christians we respect and obey those in such Apostolic offices.

Imagine Rodney Dangerfield is a bishop costume and saying his famous line, "I get no respect."

In our area, we had a civil ordinance pass that stated any discrimination against LGBT could be fined to $500 and I believe up to 90 days in jail. We fought it in City Hall and yet it still passed. After acquiring enough signatures to repeal this, it is about to be resinded, we hope.

But, the county is now putting up to vote the same thing.

This is most certainly an attack against religious freedom. The LGBT does not need this. We have hate crime laws in place, already. This is aimed at any person who expresses a belief contrary to LGBT and entitles anyone to accuse based on discrimination. Guess what? A sin is a sin no matter what civil authority states it is acceptable and legal.

Thoughts? Agreement?

Defensor Christi · Sep 12, 2014

S.ilvio said:
As probably one of the most vocal advocates for unborn life in OBOB, I take offence when people, Cardinals or not, look for a headline and use the suffering of our brethren in doing so...

I think you are coming down on the wrong side of this...the Cardinal is spot on in his analogy. Obviously, he doesnt feel as if those sufferning, rape, murder ect is the same as same sex marriage....you are blowing it out of proportion.

But a government who is supposed to maintain freedom of religion and is (and will continue) to impose its will upon those who cannot abide by contraception, abortion, same sex marriage mandates...drawing a line of comparision between that and sharia is not off the mark.

I would encourage you to "pump the brakes" a bit...and attempt to read his FULL remarks in context. Oh, and by the way, some Sharia based governments (such as Saudi Arabia) do not rape, torture or kill like ISIS...

JacktheCatholic · Sep 12, 2014

S.ilvio said:
As probably one of the most vocal advocates for unborn life in OBOB, I take offence when people, Cardinals or not, look for a headline and use the suffering of our brethren in doing so...

What are you building this on??? "use the suffering of our brethren." It is not in the article and seems to be propaganda. It seems the Bishop is being falsely accused of a crime even though he is innocent.

S.ilvio · Sep 12, 2014

JacktheCatholic said:
What are you building this on??? "use the suffering of our brethren." It is not in the article and seems to be propaganda. It seems the Bishop is being falsely accused of a crime even though he is innocent.

He used the 'Sharia' buzzword'.
He got his headline, he got us talking about him. Mission accomplished...

ZaidaBoBaida · Sep 12, 2014

Sharia law allows for non-Muslims to pay a tax for not being Muslim. Isis says, "Convert or die or leave.." Therefore Isis is actually not Sharia law.

But, just because it isn't currently as extreme as what our brothers and sisters in Iraq are expencing does not mean that it doesn't contain elements of the same spirit or isn't heading heading that way. Our brothers and sisters in Iraq would probaby tell us to be vigilant and try to head it off before it becomes as bad as what they are going through. You know how to boil a frog alive? You turn up the heat slowly. That's what's happening in the US now. The heat is being turned up slowly, and some people can't see that is what's happening.

Armoured · Sep 12, 2014

*eyeroll*

JacktheCatholic · Sep 12, 2014

S.ilvio said:
He used the 'Sharia' buzzword'.
He got his headline, he got us talking about him. Mission accomplished...

I would think he spoke with honesty and purpose and accomplished his message by getting us to read and understand the point he was addressing to the Church and possibly others. If he used a "buzzword" to get our attention, then isn't that what advertising and news media and most sources do to today and is even taught at universities?

Regardless... "mission accomplished" is a good thing. I hope we see the fruits from this in the end results of ongoing political events.

Gwendolyn · Sep 12, 2014

Here is the issue.

The Cardinal is taking a concept - that of forcing ideology on people who do not share it - and applying it to the issue of secular culture developing its own vague ideology and forcing it to be accepted.

He has a point.

BUT

His argument falls short because that is exactly what Catholics are doing when they fight gay marriage and such.

In every case, one ideology wins out, even if not everyone believes in it. The only difference is that the Cardinal believes that his ideology - Catholicsm - is the true one, grounded in the order of creation.

So, the argument is flawed.

BUT

I am relieved to see a Cardinal communicate clearly and not leave much room for misinterpretation. I am impressed.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 12, 2014

On this I disagree, Gwen. If you look at what he's saying, it is totally compatible with the "gay marriage" silliness. Most Americans were opposed to "gay marriage," until the propaganda machine kicked in from the Left! You put "gay" characters on nearly every TV show and include story lines about how persecuted and wounded they are, and how normal and natural and beautiful their lifestyle really is. Then you pump 24/7 news cycles about "tolerance" on the network news and cable news like MSNBC, then give them "Logo," their own channel. Next, get movies to have gay characters and themes. Have stupid shows like "Modern Family." In addition, get the newspapers to back you, liberal actors and actresses, get Lady Gaga to sing about it, encourage all the gays to "come out" and make it seem like the whole world is 'going gay.' On top of that, get the president of the United States and the courts to rule against traditional values on the subject, begin ridiculous campaigns like "No H8," and blast the Russians for being opposed to sodomy.

You just keep pumping and saturating, warping people's minds until they succumb. You take away "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and gay-up the military. You get the sports franchises in the U.S. like the San Diego Padres to have "Gay and lesbian night!" at the park. It goes on...and on....and on....and on...

So, your argument is that it is the collective will of Americans to like the sodomy marriage agenda, and that Catholicism is attempting to force their values on the American people. Perhaps it's the other way around? Perhaps Americans are being herded like dumb cattle into their pens of "tolerance" and the Catholic Church is trying to wake them out of their zombie-like stupid slumbers!? It is a Sharia control.

Ask yourself what happens to someone who publically rejects "gay marriage" in 2014? I've seen teachers in my school district lose their jobs for their public opinions on it already!!!! If that isn't Sharia, I don't know what is.

In 15-20 years, I'm sure it'll be a full-on hate crime to speak against LGBT junk, and possibly jail will be included. Things aren't getting better, and the American people are the victims of being duped into it.

Gwendolyn said:
Here is the issue.

The Cardinal is taking a concept - that of forcing ideology on people who do not share it - and applying it to the issue of secular culture developing its own vague ideology and forcing it to be accepted.

He has a point.

BUT

His argument falls short because that is exactly what Catholics are doing when they fight gay marriage and such.

In every case, one ideology wins out, even if not everyone believes in it. The only difference is that the Cardinal believes that his ideology - Catholicsm - is the true one, grounded in the order of creation.

So, the argument is flawed.

BUT

I am relieved to see a Cardinal communicate clearly and not leave much room for misinterpretation. I am impressed.

Root of Jesse · Sep 12, 2014

Gwendolyn said:
Here is the issue.

The Cardinal is taking a concept - that of forcing ideology on people who do not share it - and applying it to the issue of secular culture developing its own vague ideology and forcing it to be accepted.

He has a point.

BUT

His argument falls short because that is exactly what Catholics are doing when they fight gay marriage and such.

In every case, one ideology wins out, even if not everyone believes in it. The only difference is that the Cardinal believes that his ideology - Catholicsm - is the true one, grounded in the order of creation.

So, the argument is flawed.

BUT

I am relieved to see a Cardinal communicate clearly and not leave much room for misinterpretation. I am impressed.

I don't think so. The Catholic Church is fighting a change in the definition of marriage. And such. The Government is imposing laws on everyone that infringe on the beliefs of some, and not giving them a way to exclude it from their beliefs.

Example, a Catholic pharmacist who doesn't want to sell birth control or abortifacients could be required to do so in order to remain in business. A practical solution would be to include signage that states that this business does not sell these items.
Example, a Catholic adoption agency being required to allow homosexual couples to adopt children.

I agree that it is an overstatement, but our Lord used hyperbole to get his point across. Do you really think anyone had a log in his eye?

Root of Jesse · Sep 12, 2014

I know I'm going to raise some eyebrows with this statement, but it's true...

Even though Cardinal George likened what's going on in our culture to Sharia Law, I'm not so opposed to Sharia, at least some elements of it. What I'm opposed to, regarding Sharia, is its imposition on someone against their will.

For example, I think that women should be more modest, and men, for that matter. But I also believe it's your right to dress how you feel is appropriate.

Another example, in 26 years of marriage, my wife has only once ever driven a car when we were together, voluntarily (not to include times when I was recovering from anesthesia and had to be driven). I'm always the driver when we're together.

The difference is that these things we call freedoms are taken away from women in the middle east, and there are still some elements, like forced, arranged marriage, which offend our western sensibilities.

If a girl went to her father and said "Dad, I would like to defer to you to find me a husband", or a girl made the decision to take a vow of chastity until she gets married, (both of which are elements of Sharia, though not voluntary), that's a good thing.

Gwendolyn · Sep 12, 2014

gurneyhalleck1 said:
On this I disagree, Gwen. If you look at what he's saying, it is totally compatible with the "gay marriage" silliness. Most Americans were opposed to "gay marriage," until the propaganda machine kicked in from the Left! You put "gay" characters on nearly every TV show and include story lines about how persecuted and wounded they are, and how normal and natural and beautiful their lifestyle really is. Then you pump 24/7 news cycles about "tolerance" on the network news and cable news like MSNBC, then give them "Logo," their own channel. Next, get movies to have gay characters and themes. Have stupid shows like "Modern Family." In addition, get the newspapers to back you, liberal actors and actresses, get Lady Gaga to sing about it, encourage all the gays to "come out" and make it seem like the whole world is 'going gay.' On top of that, get the president of the United States and the courts to rule against traditional values on the subject, begin ridiculous campaigns like "No H8," and blast the Russians for being opposed to sodomy.

You just keep pumping and saturating, warping people's minds until they succumb. You take away "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and gay-up the military. You get the sports franchises in the U.S. like the San Diego Padres to have "Gay and lesbian night!" at the park. It goes on...and on....and on....and on...

So, your argument is that it is the collective will of Americans to like the sodomy marriage agenda, and that Catholicism is attempting to force their values on the American people. Perhaps it's the other way around? Perhaps Americans are being herded like dumb cattle into their pens of "tolerance" and the Catholic Church is trying to wake them out of their zombie-like stupid slumbers!? It is a Sharia control.

Ask yourself what happens to someone who publically rejects "gay marriage" in 2014? I've seen teachers in my school district lose their jobs for their public opinions on it already!!!! If that isn't Sharia, I don't know what is.

In 15-20 years, I'm sure it'll be a full-on hate crime to speak against LGBT junk, and possibly jail will be included. Things aren't getting better, and the American people are the victims of being duped into it.

No, my argument was that the Cardinal is right about secular society forcing Catholicism to accept their morals... but that Catholicism is also doing the same thing, though it is excused due to being true. We are caught in the tension between the two.

Root of Jesse · Sep 12, 2014

Gwendolyn said:
No, my argument was that the Cardinal is right about secular society forcing Catholicism to accept their morals... but that Catholicism is also doing the same thing, though it is excused due to being true. We are caught in the tension between the two.

I think the difference is that the Church has no power to impose anything on anyone who doesn't give obedience in their heart. The Church can shout "No to Abortion" all it wants, but Catholics who wish to, do anyway. We can say Marriage = 1 Man, 1 Woman, all we want, but we're powerless to impose that into general law. The government, on the other hand, has the power to impose its will, and take away our right to practice our faith how we want (while at the same time allowing certain Indian tribes to use drugs in worship that the general public show as illegal).

Christiancounseling · Sep 12, 2014

That is the key Jesse--the government has power to control, the Church only has power to those who humbly submit to the will of Christ. The Church, as the bride of Christ and our Mother, lays out "No" for certain reasons. Like a mother, she cannot force us. She cannot come into our bedroom, and say you cannot be gay.

The state on the other hand can easily impose fines and various other penalties.

Gurney is right, it will soon be a hate crime to call homosexuality a sin in this nation the way things are going. This has been a well laid out plan by the powers at be in the political circles and media to transform the morals of a generation.

Mark Moran, MA
Christian Counseling Certification

S.ilvio · Sep 12, 2014

gurneyhalleck1 said:
On this I disagree, Gwen. If you look at what he's saying, it is totally compatible with the "gay marriage" silliness. Most Americans were opposed to "gay marriage," until the propaganda machine kicked in from the Left! You put "gay" characters on nearly every TV show and include story lines about how persecuted and wounded they are, and how normal and natural and beautiful their lifestyle really is. Then you pump 24/7 news cycles about "tolerance" on the network news and cable news like MSNBC, then give them "Logo," their own channel. Next, get movies to have gay characters and themes. Have stupid shows like "Modern Family." In addition, get the newspapers to back you, liberal actors and actresses, get Lady Gaga to sing about it, encourage all the gays to "come out" and make it seem like the whole world is 'going gay.' On top of that, get the president of the United States and the courts to rule against traditional values on the subject, begin ridiculous campaigns like "No H8," and blast the Russians for being opposed to sodomy.

You just keep pumping and saturating, warping people's minds until they succumb. You take away "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and gay-up the military. You get the sports franchises in the U.S. like the San Diego Padres to have "Gay and lesbian night!" at the park. It goes on...and on....and on....and on...

So, your argument is that it is the collective will of Americans to like the sodomy marriage agenda, and that Catholicism is attempting to force their values on the American people. Perhaps it's the other way around? Perhaps Americans are being herded like dumb cattle into their pens of "tolerance" and the Catholic Church is trying to wake them out of their zombie-like stupid slumbers!? It is a Sharia control.

Ask yourself what happens to someone who publically rejects "gay marriage" in 2014? I've seen teachers in my school district lose their jobs for their public opinions on it already!!!! If that isn't Sharia, I don't know what is.

In 15-20 years, I'm sure it'll be a full-on hate crime to speak against LGBT junk, and possibly jail will be included. Things aren't getting better, and the American people are the victims of being duped into it.

Please, I ask again.

Oppose Gay Marriage all you like. Personally I am agnostic on the matter. In the end of the day it is a Civil matter for Government and our elected politicians (those folk we elect by our votes in democratice elections).

But throwing around words like sharia in grossly insulting and odes nothing for your arguement...

Christiancounseling · Sep 12, 2014

We have a duty to try to keep our society as according to the teachings of Christ---through democratic elections, we will try to oppose even civil because it isnt right but we will submit to the will of the people---freewill---we all have it and God blesses this nation because it does not force, EVEN TRUTH, upon his children. God wants us to choose and not be forced.

It is civil marriage, it will never be sacramental--our point is, we still have a constitutional right to oppose it and if it goes against our religious beliefs in how we conduct business ----that should be respected as other religions

That is what the Cardinal meant

Rhamiel · Sep 12, 2014

no one is stopping Gay Marriage
they can go and have a ceremony in any church that will have them, or rent a hall and have ceremony
they can cohabitate
no one is stopping "gay marriage" we are just free to not recognize it

Way To Go Cardinal George!!!!!

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