If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

LittleLambofJesus said:

In what way?
Why would the EOC say that your Denomination is heretical?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7381842-12/#post52251942







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I'll leave that to the Orthodox to explain. But our hierarchy believes we're closer to each other. But we see the same thing in the Eucharist, and we understand that the Liturgy is the highest form of worship of God. We agree what is meant by the 10 commandments. I know I could attend an Orthodox worship and understand what's going on, whereas when I go to a Baptist worship service, it reminds me of a concert, with an auditorium, and a stage, and a group of musicians (sometimes an orchestra, sometimes a four piece band) with choir. When I attend a liturgy, I know immediately that heaven is near, because I can see representations of the saints in heaven. It puts me squarely in Revelation.

So, it may not be dogmatized, etc. They may disagree with me to any degree they desire.

Standing Up said:

EV refutes (stands against) the humanity of Christ.

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Not really. Jesus is human and Jesus is God. There are innumerable churches that believe that.

Almost none of them believe any fantasies about the virgin birth being 'east gate' or anything else like that, even though it's true that such explanations were offered in antiquity.

Albion said:

Not really. Jesus is human and Jesus is God. There are innumerable churches that believe that.

Almost none of them believe any fantasies about the virgin birth being 'east gate' or anything else like that, even though it's true that such explanations were offered in antiquity.

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Doesn't make a difference. If Jesus wasn't born like a human, He wasn't human.
How do they explain the EV any differently?
Do you know?
If she was EV because He didn't rip her hymen, how then?

Rick Otto said:

Doesn't make a difference. If Jesus wasn't born like a human, He wasn't human.

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Ah. Now there is no misunderstanding. And I reject that theory--on Biblical grounds.

And it's also illogical. Miracles do happen. Christ did many things we cannot do and we don't conclude that he wasn't human as a result.

What's more the RCC view of the two natures of Christ is unqualified. It is not dependent upon any of the Marian doctrines.

How do they explain the EV any differently?
Do you know?
If she was EV because He didn't rip her hymen, how then?

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Sure I know. They think she was EV but they're wrong.

But I still believe that Jesus was human, just as almost every other Christian believes he was human and that there wasn't any ever-virginity on the part of his mother. And even among RCs who do think of her as ever-virgin, the humanity and divinity of Christ are not linked to it.

Rick Otto said:

Doesn't make a difference. If Jesus wasn't born like a human, He wasn't human.
How do they explain the EV any differently?
Do you know?
If she was EV because He didn't rip her hymen, how then?

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The first man was not born like a human so that point could be up to debate but scripture says he was born of a virgin....but he had brothers and sisters...so though I respect Mary as I do Moses or Hannah she was not endowed with a magic body parts.as far as people believing it and saying...."ancient alien theorist believe it may" is not evidance....someone let history channel know

Albion said:

What's more the RCC view of the two natures of Christ is unqualified.
It is not dependent upon any of the Marian doctrines.

Sure I know. They think she was EV but they're wrong.....................

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What is unqualified about it? Just wondering. Thanks



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Albion said:

Ah. Now there is no misunderstanding. And I reject that theory--on Biblical grounds.

And it's also illogical. Miracles do happen. Christ did many things we cannot do and we don't conclude that he wasn't human as a result.

What's more the RCC view of the two natures of Christ is unqualified. It is not dependent upon any of the Marian doctrines.



Sure I know. They think she was EV but they're wrong.

But I still believe that Jesus was human, just as almost every other Christian believes he was human and that there wasn't any ever-virginity on the part of his mother. And even among RCs who do think of her as ever-virgin, the humanity and divinity of Christ are not linked to it.

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We do not think so. We know so. Why? Because there is no mention of her having other children. And from sources close to the time and situation, because just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say she had other children, the Bible doesn't explicitly say much about Mary, other than that she gave birth to Jesus having conceived by the Holy Spirit, that they went looking for Jesus when he was 12, that she asked him to do something for the wedding couple at Cana, and that she was there at the foot of the cross. Oh, yeah, and that she appears in Revelation bodily in heaven.

For those of you who want to know what Tradition is, most of it revolves around Mary.

Root of Jesse said:

We do not think so. We know so. Why? Because there is no mention of her having other children. And from sources close to the time and situation, because just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say she had other children, the Bible doesn't explicitly say much about Mary, other than that she gave birth to Jesus having conceived by the Holy Spirit, that they went looking for Jesus when he was 12, that she asked him to do something for the wedding couple at Cana, and that she was there at the foot of the cross. Oh, yeah, and that she appears in Revelation bodily in heaven.

For those of you who want to know what Tradition is, most of it revolves around Mary.

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So?
Not for Protestants it doesn't......



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LittleLambofJesus said:

So? Not for Protestants it doesn't...... .

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And not for Orthodox. Everything in Orthodox Tradition about Mary is centered on Christ. Her title, her position among the Saints, everything. (Source: Deacon Michael Hyatt, At The Intersection of East and West)

sculleywr said:

And not for Orthodox. Everything in Orthodox Tradition about Mary is centered on Christ. Her title, her position among the Saints, everything. (Source: Deacon Michael Hyatt, At The Intersection of East and West)

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And it is so for Catholics. IF Christ is not the center, then your Marian devotion is wrong...

Root of Jesse said:

And it is so for Catholics. IF Christ is not the center, then your Marian devotion is wrong...

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and that is the major split. Mary would be nothing without Christ. Without the Incarnation, Mary is only a girl with a particular devotion to God. Without Christ's honor for His mother, she is nothing but a random person. But it is Christ which Mary points. It is Christ Who saves, through the intercessions of the Theotokos (Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom as celebrated in the Antiochian archdiocese).

sculleywr said:

and that is the major split. Mary would be nothing without Christ. Without the Incarnation, Mary is only a girl with a particular devotion to God. Without Christ's honor for His mother, she is nothing but a random person. But it is Christ which Mary points. It is Christ Who saves, through the intercessions of the Theotokos (Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom as celebrated in the Antiochian archdiocese).

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You're stating very well what Catholic teaching is. So I'm not sure what the 'split' is? You know, very well, that many Catholics do not know their faith, but what the faith is, is exactly as above.

Root of Jesse said:

You're stating very well what Catholic teaching is. So I'm not sure what the 'split' is? You know, very well, that many Catholics do not know their faith, but what the faith is, is exactly as above.

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it was the connotation of our doctrine about Mary. You said if Christ is the center, then it is wrong. It is because Christ is the center that everything I said is true.

sculleywr said:

it was the connotation of our doctrine about Mary. You said if Christ is the center, then it is wrong. It is because Christ is the center that everything I said is true.

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I said "If Christ is NOT the center, then it is wrong."

Albion said:

Ah. Now there is no misunderstanding. And I reject that theory--on Biblical grounds.

And it's also illogical. Miracles do happen. Christ did many things we cannot do and we don't conclude that he wasn't human as a result.

What's more the RCC view of the two natures of Christ is unqualified. It is not dependent upon any of the Marian doctrines.



Sure I know. They think she was EV but they're wrong.

But I still believe that Jesus was human, just as almost every other Christian believes he was human and that there wasn't any ever-virginity on the part of his mother. And even among RCs who do think of her as ever-virgin, the humanity and divinity of Christ are not linked to it.

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Of course they have to deny linkage, but we don't, and the link is as obvious as can be.
We don't deny His miracles which started at a marriage feast long after His birth, and we by them, we confirm His divinity. But if His point in incarnation was to share our humanity, He cheated us by not sharing our birth experience. He took a short cut for what reason? Miracle for the sake of miracle? Doesn't make sense on it's surface. What am I missing?

Rick Otto said:

Of course they have to deny linkage, but we don't, and the link is as obvious as can be. We don't deny His miracles which started at a marriage feast long after His birth, and we by them, we confirm His divinity. But if His point in incarnation was to share our humanity, He cheated us by not sharing our birth experience. He took a short cut for what reason? Miracle for the sake of miracle? Doesn't make sense on it's surface. What am I missing?

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The burden of proof is on those who claim linkage to the Apostles. You claim it, so you must prove it. You have yet to do so. Orthodox and Catholics have each evidence of linkage that is as long as the trip from here to china.

Root of Jesse said:

well, it's not dogma, but we do know she's mother of all Christians.

On another note, isn't Albion good at discerning what people really mean by what they type???

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Actually, it was my great aunt who was Mary. My mother was Mona.

If Christianity is true, why are they not united?

why they are not united?

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It's pretty simple actually.

Martin Luther's theology is original Protestant, but it's also a bit catholic in practice despite the iconoclasm against the Church and it's papacy.

Then John Calvin came along and told Luther, "Good job, but you have some flaws in your theology and practice".
*not a direct quote, but was the case anyhow.

So Calvin goes and makes what he deemed an airtight theology, with a practice which dismissed everything from what Luther dismissed as well as crucifixes and confessions.

Automatically, the Reformation became two giants instead of one. Unification was neglected in the first century Protestantism started, to say the least of further denominations spurring into being; Methodism and the Episcopal churches coming from the English Church thereafter to name a few.

sculleywr said:

The burden of proof is on those who claim linkage to the Apostles. You claim it, so you must prove it. You have yet to do so. Orthodox and Catholics have each evidence of linkage that is as long as the trip from here to china.

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RC and EO have no direct linkage to scripture or apostles for their ever-virgin belief.

Linkage was provided that shows scripture and tradition proving virginity ended. We know the why (proof of God in the flesh). We know the how (normal human birth).