what exactly did he mean? ...no man comes to the Father except by me

rick357 said:

No need for sorry...welcome to the forum....stay around for a while just by sheer luck Ive got to eventually say something witty or sensible

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That has to be the best witty and sensible post I have ever seen, too bad really.{Cause you used up such a good line} ;]

John

47Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.48I am the bread of life.49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."


The Manna, the budding rod of Aaron, the law is within the Ark of the covenant.

The ark of the covenant is in the Holy of Holies and it is in line with the alter of incense in the holy place, and they are in line with the brazen alter in the outer court from which the fire is taken to light the incense in the Holy place.

If we are the temple in 3 sections, it's because it is showing body, soul, and spirit, and with each progressive step into the temple, there is a progression of value in everything you see.

The brazen alter is about the body.
The alter of incense is about the soul
The ark of the covenant is about the spirit.

These are 3 views of what you are, and 3 different ways to come to God in a progressive walk.


Hebrews.

16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


How in the world would somebody approach the throne of grace in their lives unless.......................


Isn't this talking about Yom Kippur?

How does a person do such a thing in his every day life?

Shimshon said:

You obviously did not pay attention to the biblical quotes in my post. If you had you would understand why I disagree.

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I read every word you wrote and I still agree with pat34lee, everything is about the Creator. At least in a true Torah faith it is.

Shimshon said:

Our Father is glorified in the Son.

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The Torah teaches us that the Creator is glorified in all of His creation, even you and I.

rick357 said:

In you and I he is glorified that he is patient and kind...but he has spoken a covenant in which there are two choices life and death...It was in the garden....reafirmed to Israel by the witness of Moses obediance for life...disobediance for death.all men know that partial obediance is disobedience.
from Adam to Moses men did what was seen as the right by their own eye. but in Moses we are taught with true obedience and righteousness is... and is a standard that no man can keep perfectly. so as he gave Adam the sacrifice so he told Moses the sacrificial system.
But these sacrifices where as an interest payment and could never be a complete payment so when we sin we had taken a man away from YHWH(us) to be redeemed as an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth my flesh and blood man that I took from Him to the flesh and blood man who had not sinned could redeam me.The torah does teach us of YHWH and of our wickedness and unfaithfulness and idolatry...and of the seas of blood spilt for us of the multitude of butcher
Blood on the temple blood on the people blood on the Torah all things to sanctify...can the weak sanctify the strong...no
Is a ram stronger than the temple...is a bull stronger than the people...or a goat than the torah....so they could teach us what was necessary. but the blood of these animals could not sanctify these things.
but Yeshua is the word of YHWH made flesh He is stronger than all of these and by his blood he sanctifies them all of them so without Yeshua no man comes to the Father

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The Torah teaches us that our Creator is the Redeemer and He redeems us by His grace, through faith. The only requirement is repentance. And as I said before, all men have full access to the Creator. These are immutable Torah concepts.

Shalom

Torah Emunah said:

I read every word you wrote and I still agree with pat34lee, everything is about the Creator. At least in a true Torah faith it is.

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And Messianic Judaism IS the true Torah faith. And Yeshua is the creator in the flesh. Our king, our redeemer, our savior, our restorer, the one who formed the universe. Your right, in that everything is about the Creator, who is Yeshua.

Torah Emunah said:

The Torah teaches us that the Creator is glorified in all of His creation, even you and I.

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Yes, and He who created the world dwells within all of us who believe God came in the form of Yeshua Messiah, his son in the flesh. Born from above, not of this world, the exact image of God's nature. He is the creator of all. Because God created the world through him. The Word made flesh. Who dwells in all who believe.

It is all about God revealing his salvation through Yeshua who he appointed all things, and through whom he created the world. Yeshua is the LORD our God. This is why they BOTH testify and witness about the Son. Because the Son is the door by which all creation exists. And by which all creation knows God. If you disagree with Yeshua you disagree with Torah. Without Yeshua Torah has no life at all. Becaused he IS the life force that created it. Which is why God draws all to him through Yeshua, the first born (son) of God's creation. Who represents Yisrael in full. And redeems not only us but the entire creation (world). He is in all and with all, he is Yeshua, the God of our salvation.

Isaiah 43
3 For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.

Shimshon said:

You obviously did not pay attention to the biblical quotes in my post. If you had you would understand why I disagree. Our Father is glorified in the Son. (John 14:5-15) He is drawing all to himself through Yeshua.

They both hold the same testimony. They both hold the same witness. Reread my last post for the quotes.

Here are a few more;

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You cannot have one without the other. The intangible and the visible. How would we know the Father without the testimony of the Son? Even in the Tanakh, since no one can see the Father and live, who did they see? The physical personification of the Father; the Son. And of course, there is the Spirit which connects them together and us to them.

pat34lee said:

You cannot have one without the other. The intangible and the visible. How would we know the Father without the testimony of the Son? Even in the Tanakh, since no one can see the Father and live, who did they see? The physical personification of the Father; the Son. And of course, there is the Spirit which connects them together and us to them.

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I agree. And I also understand that this dialog started because you were identifying the neutered Jesus that the church promotes. In all this we do agree, pat. I think you just used a kneejerk reaction by stating what you did which served to ring my Messiah bone. In all things Messiah is everything. Col 3:11

Torah Emunah said:

The Torah teaches us that our Creator is the Redeemer and He redeems us by His grace, through faith. The only requirement is repentance. And as I said before, all men have full access to the Creator. These are immutable Torah concepts.

Shalom

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Israel has to be married to God, and if this is what they have to do, it is what all people must do, or how would it be the same for all people?

God shows people having to come under the covenant through a marriage that redeems just like Boaz and Ruth.

Hosea showing God coming to marry Northern Israel in redeeming them back into Israel, sort of looks like Israel standing before the mountain under a canopy saying,'' I do, I will.''


But the requirement for Israel to be redeemed is through a marriage of redemption and only Israel does this, not Judah, Judah did so at the mountain.

But at some point a prophet must come up and do just what was promised, a marriage of redemption for ten tribes who had been sent into the nations.

They are first redeemed in a marriage, AND THEN they become one with Judah.



God forbid that God should ever treat Judah as he treated Israel.

I have defended Judah many times from people quoting the sins of Israel and then putting them on the heads of Jews.

Here is what is said about Israel, not Judah.

Hosea 4


My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,
that thou shalt be no priest to me:
seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God,
I will also forget thy children.

7
As they were increased, so they sinned against me:
therefore will I change their glory into shame.

8
They eat up the sin of my people,
and they set their heart on their iniquity.

9
And there shall be, like people, like priest:
and I will punish them for their ways,
and reward them their doings.

10
For they shall eat, and not have enough:
they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase:
because they have left off to take heed to the Lord.

11
Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.



12
My people ask counsel at their stocks,
and their staff declareth unto them:
for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err,
and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

13
They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains,
and burn incense upon the hills,
under oaks and poplars and elms,
because the shadow thereof is good:
therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom,
and your spouses shall commit adultery.

14
I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom,
nor your spouses when they commit adultery:
for themselves are separated with harlots,
and they sacrifice with harlots:
therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.



15
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot,
yet let not Judah offend;
and come not ye unto Gilgal,
neither go ye up to Beth-aven,
nor swear, The Lord liveth.

16
For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer:
now the Lord will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.




God curses Israel{not Judah} but then he claims he will come and redeem them through a marriage.
Hosea 1

And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. 7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God,

Northern Israel is sent into the nations where they became,'' Not his people.''


But then God comes to redeem them through a redemptive marriage BECAUSE they became gentiles into the nations they went.

Hosea 2

And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord,
that thou shalt call me Ishi;
and shalt call me no more Baali.

17
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth,
and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

18
And in that day will I make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven,
and with the creeping things of the ground:
and I will break the bow and the sword
and the battle out of the earth,
and will make them to lie down safely.

19
And I will betroth thee unto me for ever;
yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness,
and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness:
and thou shalt know the Lord.



My point is this, if it is such a requirement for the lost children of Israel to be redeemed through a marriage, why would the gentile be given a pass?

How can we point at the gentile and say,'' O yeah, God is their redeemer also and we are all the same?''

We saw Israel come under a covenant and a marriage with Moses, but Hosea is showing another marriage just for the tribes of Ephraim, and then the two become one, and then the two mount up and spoil the nations.


But if Israel MUST be redeemed through a covenant of marriage, then a prophet must come proposing, and they have nothing to do with their old ways, they fully convert and do what is required of Israel to do.


But why would you think the gentile is redeemed right along with the Jew?


Or is it that Jews are the only ones who can be true brides?

The marriage is for gentiles of Israel to be redeemed through a marriage of redemption, but I see no promise to gentiles.

Only gentiles of the land of Joseph who were taken into the nations by the king of Assyria, those gentiles do have a covenant and a hope for redemption through a marriage.

But why would we consider that it could apply the same to all?


If it is as you say, then why the need for God to marry?

This was done on the mountain, but Israel called the Torah a strange thing and they married into gentiles before they even left.

They were given a divorce, but a remarriage is promised.

Where is a promise to other gentiles without a marriage of redemption?


21
And it shall come to pass in that day,
I will hear, saith the Lord,
I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

22
and the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil;
and they shall hear Jezreel.

23
And I will sow her unto me in the earth;
and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy;
and I will say to them which were not my people,
Thou art my people;
and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Shimshon said:

And Messianic Judaism IS the true Torah faith.

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Torah Judaism IS the true Messianic faith.

Torah Emunah said:

I read every word you wrote and I still agree with pat34lee, everything is about the Creator. At least in a true Torah faith it is.

The Torah teaches us that the Creator is glorified in all of His creation, even you and I.

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I thought "Son" is capitalized?

Heb 1:2 (CJB)
2 But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe.

(OJB)
2 At the Ketz HaYamim, Hashem spoke to us by HaBen, whom He appointed Bechor of the Bechorah, Yoresh Kol (Heir of All Things), through whom also Hashem BARAH ES HASHOMAYIM V’ES HA’ARETZ

John 3 (CJB)
16" For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.

(OJB)
16 For Hashem so had ahavah (agape) for the Olam Hazeh that Hashem gave the matanah (gift) [Isa 9:5 (6)] of Hashem’s Ben Yechid [Gn 22:12; Prov 30:4; 8:30} so that whosoever has emunah in him may not be ne’evad (lost, perish, be ruined with destruction), but find Chayyei Olam

HannibalFlavius said:

Israel has to be married to God.

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The Jewish people were married to G-d at Sinai.

Torah Emunah said:

The Torah teaches us that our Creator is the Redeemer and He redeems us by His grace, through faith. The only requirement is repentance. And as I said before, all men have full access to the Creator. These are immutable Torah concepts.

Shalom

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John 8:56 (OJB)
56 Avraham your Av had lev same’ach to see the Yom of me [the Yom HaMoshiach], and he saw it and had simcha.


Abraham saw three men.

Daniel 3

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see anashim arba’ah (four men) free (not bound, loose), walking in the midst of the eish (fire), and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Bar Elohin (Ben Elohim, Hebrew).

Who did Adam hide from? Did Adam and Eve hear footsteps in the garden?

Gen 2 (OJB)
8 And they heard the kol of Hashem Elohim walking in the gan in the cool of the day; and HaAdam and his isha hid from the presence of Hashem Elohim amongst the etz hagan.

(CJB)
8 They heard the voice of Adonai, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Adonai, God, among the trees in the garden.

Torah Emunah said:

The Jewish people were married to G-d at Sinai.

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Yes indeed.

rick357 said:

I actually agree with everything you said but I think we would define these words quite differently.
you told Hannibal you were Orthodox so I assumed when you say all men have access to the creator you were including righteous Gentiles who would fall under the Noahdic laws.If you do not believe this please correct me. I want to know where you draw your conclusions so I can understand what you believe whether I believe it or not.

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ALL men have access to the Creator so of course that includes gentiles. It includes Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses too. Christianity excludes all who do not believe in Jesus from accessing the Creator. That is NOT a Torah concept.

Torah Emunah said:

ALL men have access to the Creator so of course that includes gentiles. It includes Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses too. Christianity excludes all who do not believe in Jesus from accessing the Creator. That is NOT a Torah concept.

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Do you see an empty tomb?

John 20
10 So the talmidim returned home, 11 but Miryam stood outside crying. As she cried, she bent down, peered into the tomb, 12 and saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Yeshua had been, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 “Why are you crying?” they asked her. “They took my Lord,” she said to them, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”
14 As she said this, she turned around and saw Yeshua standing there, but she didn’t know it was he.

Torah Emunah said:

The Jewish people were married to G-d at Sinai.

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That's my point.


Hosea is a reality of what Israel did, not Judah, but Israel.

Yes, Israel married God under a canopy at the mountain and the people said,'' yes.''

''We will, I do.''

Then the people said, '' Do not let God speak to us again''


Had there not been a separation, there would have not been a need for God to be so dramatic as to marry people again.

But Northern Israel had called the Ketubah a strange thing indeed, and they created their own worship system, and all the kings of Israel followed in changing the Holy place of Jerusalem to Bethel, and to changing the feasts to feasts that looked like Judah's but wasn't. Jeroboam said in his heart,'' If these people go up to Jerusalem to keep the feasts of God, then the heart of the people will revert back to Judah and I will lose my kingdom.''

God put an end to their kingdom because of the sins of Jeroboam, and he had the king of Assyria come and collect them to scatter them to the 4 corners of the earth.

God said to them,'' You are not my people, and I will not be your God.''

But God did not treat Judah as he did Israel, and God forbid that Israel should offend, they are the bride of God.


But not so with the majority of Israel, and with the sons of Joseph, they were given a decree of divorce, and so what had happened on the great mountain under the canopy was wiped away, and thus a need for a marriage of redemption, just as is promised to the Tribes and kingdom of Ephraim, the sons of Joseph.

We are talking about Israel, not Judah.


And Israel is promised to marry God again.

You believe as I do, that Moses stood as the mediator of a covenant of marriage between Israel and God, is that correct?


So what must take place if another marriage is decreed?


Judah doesn't have to come back up to the mountain, we all know that Judah owns everything, and they are the bride of God.

But Israel on the other hand, what happened on the mountain was wiped clean, and thus a need for a renewed marriage of redemption.

The least of these. Go help someone in need.