I Would Like Those Who Believe In A Pre-Trib Rapture

Messy said:

No links? Okay I'll do some copy pasting:

I will keep thee from the hour of temptation
which shall come upon all the world, to try
them that dwell on the earth." Rev.3:10

Believers are "not appointed unto wrath." (I Thess. 5:9)

We are to be "delivered from the wrath to come." (I Thess.1:10)

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What is the difference between tribulation and wrath? It certainly appears Christians will suffer tribulation:






By the way, temptation is not the same as tribulation. The church in Rev 2:9-10 suffered tribulation, not the one in 3:9.


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"Satan will be bound .... during the 1000 yr reign of Christ"


Yes he will [Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-10]

Daniel1136 said:

"Satan will be bound .... during the 1000 yr reign of Christ"


Yes he will [Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-10]

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Where can I find the 1000 yr reign of Christ, Daniel?

Messy said in post 74:

Rev.3:10

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The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Messy said in post 74:

Enoch--raptured before the flood

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Note that Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

Messy said in post 74:

Revelation 4:1

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Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Messy said in post 74:

Luke 21:36

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Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

shturt678s said in post 79:

Satan was persoanlly bound in hell at the Cross in light of Lk.11:21, 22 . . .

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Note that in Luke 11:21-22, as in Matthew 12:25-29, the "strong man" isn't Satan himself, but refers to "strong man" individual demons/unclean spirits which possess individual people. Compare the strength of the individual demon in the individual man in Acts 19:13-16, who had the strength to overpower 7 men. Satan himself remains unbound, walking about freely on the earth (1 Peter 5:8). He won't be bound and locked down in the bottomless pit, by an angel, until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

Similarly, John 12:31b means that because of what Jesus did at his first coming (Hebrews 2:14), Satan "shall", in our future, first be cast out of heaven permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-17). Then, later, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), Satan will be bound and cast down beneath the earth's surface, locked within the literal bottomless pit, for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2-3). Then, after the 1,000 years and the subsequent defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-9), Satan will be cast into the lake of fire to remain there forever (Revelation 20:10). The lake of fire will be outside New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Similarly, in Colossians 2:15, the original Greek word (apekduomai: G0554) translated as "spoiled" doesn't mean that Satan has been "disarmed", or "bound". For he still employs weapons (Ephesians 6:16), and he is still walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Colossians 2:15, like the similar Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8b, makes no reference to the "binding" of Satan with a chain and his being "shut up", i.e. enclosed within, the literal bottomless pit by an angel (Revelation 20:1-3). For this won't occur until Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

In Hebrews 2:14, the original Greek word (katargeo: G2673) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to make of none effect" (Romans 4:14b). Hebrews 2:14 means that Jesus' death made Satan's power of none effect spiritually over obedient Christians. Similarly, in 1 John 3:8, the original Greek word (luo: G3089) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to break" (Ephesians 2:14). 1 John 3:8 means that Jesus came to break Satan's workings from having any spiritual effect over obedient Christians.

Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict that Satan can still wield his power physically over even obedient Christians, even to the point of killing them (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Similarly, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict that Satan can still wield his deceiving spiritual power over both disobedient Christians and non-Christians (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10), while during the future millennium, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:3).

Bro in Christ said:

when .... time stamp ... if so why does God's word state He is not .... Not my opinion but God's word ... which was written after the cross

Satan will be bound in the future .... during the 1000 yr reign of Christ and the angels as his police force .. Matt 6,13, rev 20

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Bibles are translations being extremely interpretative before an interpretation in light of IIPet.1:20, 21, thus they say whatever one wants them to say my brother. This is why we are to view translations contextually & aspectually, grammatically taking a back seat, eg, whatever the Bible says sort of thing?

Old Jack's opinion

Rev20 said:

Where can I find the 1000 yr reign of Christ, Daniel?

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Dan.9:25, "And for sixty-two heptads...." is the signified 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Old Jack's opinion

The scroll with seven seals was opened some 1982 years ago when Jesus ascended into heaven and was given all authority on heaven and earth. John was given the vision years later, possibly 95 AD, so it was at least already opened by then; otherwise we would not know what was in it. The scroll is like a written play, but the actions taken don't occur until the trumpets are blown, then bowls released. The events in the seven trumpets and bowls coincide within the seals events. They overlap and are accumulative. This is why there is so much confusion. You cannot read it in a chronological and linear way. You have to view it like a sphere. The scroll is multi-dimensional. Imagine the scroll is written on a transparent globe; you can't just spin it around and observe the events, you have to look through this sphere of events, then you can see them overlap. Like a play, the actions don't take place until the actors get on stage. Well, the stage is about set and actors about to perform.
While turning the sphere, John gives us different vantage points to see things. Very simply, a lot of things are going on at the same time but you can only read about them separately. So events in chapter six don't necessarily occur before events in chapter 8.
The rapture happens at the sound of the seventh (last) trumpet. At that time, the bowls of wrath are released. That said, Pre-Tribbers and Post-Tribbers are both wrong. We have to go through some tribulation before we get taken out, but the bowls contain the final destructive phase. It all occurs within 3 1/2 years. I can show you things that describe the same events in chapter 7 and chapter 14, just a different vantage point. I can point out that Rev.6:12 is the same event as Rev.16:18. There are many others as well. Enough for now.

shturt678s said:

Dan.9:25, "And for sixty-two heptads...." is the signified 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Old Jack's opinion

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I don't interpret it quite that way, Old Jack. I see Christ's reign as being for ever; though Paul indicates there might be a "rest" from "reigning" after He destroys all his enemies:


Which leads me to believe that his reign began upon his ascension:



And we know the last enemy destroyed is death:



That occurred after the proverbial "thousand year reign"; therefore, it must be revisited:


So, it was not Christ that reigned for "1000 years", but those He resurrected. Christ reigns forever:





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Rev20 said:

What is the difference between tribulation and wrath? It certainly appears Christians will suffer tribulation:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33​

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." -- Acts 14:22​

"For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know." -- 1Th 3:4​

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:" -- 2Th 1:4​

By the way, temptation is not the same as tribulation. The church in Rev 2:9-10 suffered tribulation, not the one in 3:9.


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And "tribulation and THE GREAT Tribulation are not the same.

One is simply the principle that "man is born to trouble, just as sparks fly upward." The sufferings of being in the world - no temptation but such as is common to man.

The other that great day of His wrath through The Assyrian...

"Who are these people?"


They are the immortal of the Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia who will not experience His hour [time] of trial and judgment of an unbelieving world that is coming

These have come "away from" this judgment and are already with the Lord just before His wrath and judgment begins

They consist of all of the dead in Christ from the beginning of human creation and those living at the time

The 24 elders are with them and they all observe the Lord's removal of the 7 seals of the scroll containing the coming judgments

None of these will experience the Lord's punishment of the coming tribulation [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9] [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12, 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14]

There are those of His true ecclesia who will experience the coming tribulation; those not believers before that will become believers during, these will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation and added to the balance [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4] [those beheaded] ... the Lord's two prophets will be added as well [Revelation 11:11-12

All of the same will contend with the Lord against Satan's beast and his human followers at Armageddon .... then they will rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom on the earth [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:4] [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]

Daniel1136 said:

"Who are these people?"
They are the immortal of the Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia who will not experience His hour [time] of trial and judgment of an unbelieving world that is coming

These have come "away from" this judgment and are already with the Lord just before His wrath and judgment begins

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So, your interpretation of "coming out of great tribulation" is "never having to experience it?" Remarkable.

How does the next verse fit in?


It appears they were also sealed as servants. Why did the Lord single out the others (the 144,000), if these servants are not the same people?

Could 144,000 people, gathered together into one place, be considered a great multitude that no man could number?


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Replacement theology is a standard dogma of the preterist ..... but far from the truth if you know what I mean

Daniel1136 said:

Replacement theology is a standard dogma of the preterist ..... but far from the truth if you know what I mean

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I agree. That is why I embrace Fulfillment Theology.

1) Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant:



2) Christ fulfilled the Davidic Covenant:



Everyone should learn Fulfillment Theology.
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For those new to the game of "My Doctrine is More Righteous than Your Doctrine," the term "Replacement Theology" was intended to be a "smear word", invented by bitter-old dispensationalists who cannot defend their modern, non-biblical doctrine any other way. The opposing "smear word" is "Dual-Covenant Theology", ironically invented by the same finger pointers.


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Another novelty for the preterist

Daniel1136 said:

Another novelty for the preterist

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Who would have believed it? A dispensationalist who doesn't believe the scriptures when it says that Christ inherited the promises of both covenants?

Tell me it isn't so . . .


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Daniel1136 said in post 92:

They are the immortal of the Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia . . .

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Note that in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Daniel1136 said in post 92:

They are the immortal of the Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia . . .

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

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Daniel1136 said in post 94:

Replacement theology is a standard dogma of the preterist ..... but far from the truth if you know what I mean

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Replacement theology is mistaken because the church doesn't "replace" Israel. Instead, Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).