Is transgender a form of defiance?

Cute Tink said:

Please state the Scriptures that say that moving toward congruence between the brain and the body is immoral, etc.

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Why should we believe the Bible has to declare it immoral in order for it to be immoral?

Rubiks said:

Why should we believe the Bible has to declare it immoral in order for it to be immoral?

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Please note the post I was responding to in relation to that comment.

But since you asked, as a Christian, what else would you base your opinion on the morality of something?

Hi CuteTink. I see your question.. I will have to come back a little later today to reply..

Cute Tink said:

Please note the post I was responding to in relation to that comment.

But since you asked, as a Christian, what else would you base your opinion on the morality of something?

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Sorry about that.

But it really isn't as simple as "bible declares it immoral" or "bible declares it immoral" We often have to apply the general principles behind the commands and see how it relates to the time of our day.

TheyCallMeDavid said:

Originally Posted by selfinflikted

'This poster isn't so much concerned with education as he is making unsubstantiated claims that prop up his religion and piousness'

RESONSE: Ill stick to my education coming from the Creators written instructions and his very nature, character, ande Person . Not Mans apathy toward immorality
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That's not education - that's superstition.

Rubiks said:

Sorry about that.

But it really isn't as simple as "bible declares it immoral" or "bible declares it immoral" We often have to apply the general principles behind the commands and see how it relates to the time of our day.

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No worries.

I understand what you are saying. However, I am not here to discuss really whether something is immoral or not. Besides the fact that it would probably get me banned, declarations of immorality differ from person to person.

What I'm really objecting to is the idea that we can be written off as perversions from a uninformed and unsupported position, but you haven't done that so this is not a reaction toward you.

melody123 said:

Hi CuteTink. I see your question.. I will have to come back a little later today to reply..

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Thank you for letting me know. I'll look forward to your reply.

selfinflikted said:

That's not education - that's superstition.

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GODLY superstition!

melody123 said:

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]This message is for[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]GenetoJean: Not comfortable around men. In my experience, men are always competeing and my lack of competition makes men think less of me. My lack of caring about perceived slights seem to make men think less of me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Thanks for sharing… It sounds like you experienced a lot of ongoing rejection. That is very painful[/FONT][FONT=Verdana","sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]I’m not comparing myself to your situation and all what you have gone through, but it makes me think of a woman that I used to work with that I'd like to share. We were to work as a team, but she very and unnaturally competitive, for no valid reason! I won’t go into the long details of what she did, but some of the things were underhanded, and it made me look bad and I felt bad. I was very much a people pleaser back then, and the fact that she wouldn’t let me connect with her (as women like to do) made me feel scared and out of control. It wasn’t until a couple years later that I read that this type of behavior could be the mark of a woman who did not get enough nurturing from her mother (being another female) , but instead was competitive with her. Whether that was a valid explanation for her, I don’t know, but at that moment I felt a compassion for her, a paradigm shift I guess, and it was a process of forgiveness thereafter. It’s taken a while of continually releasing it to God, renouncing any bad feelings that continually kept wanting to come up, until He healed me, and I no longer feel that pain. She had really made my life miserable[/FONT][FONT=Verdana","sans-serif].[/FONT]

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Thank you for sharing. I dont care if a person disagrees with me as long as they show compasion. What I dont like is when a person thinks I am willfulling going against God's will. I may be mistaken about what His will is but I want to follow it. I just know I cant live the way I was living before.

TheyCallMeDavid said:

Its perversion plain and simple . Its an personal alteration from what God designed , and it is very much tied to sexuality including subsequent casual sex .

You didn't think coming into a distinctively Christian forum was going to yield tolerance, enablement, and high-fives to this anti-God perversion , did you ?! ....lol.....

If anyone has the feeling that they are the opposite sex to how they came out of the womb, then there is professional counseling available and many have been victorious from it . The problem today is that many wayward People don't want to endure the hard work for victory and its far easier to find others who will say : ' atta boy' or 'atta girl' --- live however you like.

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David, I honestly have no sex drive and dont want to have sex with anybody. I really dont see how what I am doing can be considered a sexual perversion. I am not saying that I cant understand where people are coming from that disagree and think what I am doing is wrong but I just dont understand how it can be sexual if I dont want to have sex at all.

TheyCallMeDavid said:

Its perversion plain and simple . Its an personal alteration from what God designed , and it is very much tied to sexuality including subsequent casual sex .

You didn't think coming into a distinctively Christian forum was going to yield tolerance, enablement, and high-fives to this anti-God perversion , did you ?! ....lol.....

If anyone has the feeling that they are the opposite sex to how they came out of the womb, then there is professional counseling available and many have been victorious from it . The problem today is that many wayward People don't want to endure the hard work for victory and its far easier to find others who will say : ' atta boy' or 'atta girl' --- live however you like.

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Fortunately not all of your fellow Christians share the same pious attitude that seem to. The ELCA, UMC, and UCC do see things the way you seem to.

GenetoJean said:

David, I honestly have no sex drive and dont want to have sex with anybody. I really dont see how what I am doing can be considered a sexual perversion. I am not saying that I cant understand where people are coming from that disagree and think what I am doing is wrong but I just dont understand how it can be sexual if I dont want to have sex at all.

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David appears to love the sound of his own voice. You'd have much more success in talking to a brick wall.

poolerboy0077 said:

David appears to love the sound of his own voice. You'd have much more success in talking to a brick wall.

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I just try to make people realise that there are actual people behind these topics they talk about and we have really struggled with this. I dont even try to get them to change their minds When responding, I only try to ask or say something once. After that I just move along.

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Originally Posted by melody123[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]In the Bible, I feel that it says that sex is designated individually and specifically with God’s foreknowledge.. He says , “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you (Jeremiah 1: 5),” “For you formed my inward parts; you covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made (Ps. 139: 13–14).”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Cutetink: I'm curious about this. You cite to these quotes and I assume that you take "inward parts" as our body parts. Interestingly, it doesn't also say "outward parts". Could that mean, rather than sorting the particulars of our bodies, but rather the particulars of our souls/spirits?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]I don't see this as a conclusive statement that God makes each of us as we expect things to be[/FONT][FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Hi. [/FONT]OK. To me this verse means God made us and intimately knew us as a whole, in every which possible way, inside, outside , spirit, soul and body.


My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. . . . your eyes saw my unformed body” (verses 13-16).

There is another verse, where he says :

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Luke 12:7 : [/FONT]But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Have you heard of the pregnant transgender woman to man who had 3 children ( married to a woman)?
[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019579/Worlds-pregnant-man-Thomas-Beatie-unveils-muscular-body-3-babies.html[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]I was using it as an example, in light of the Word of God.

Here is what I found:

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[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]“[/FONT]And He answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’“
—Matthew 19:4 (NKJV)

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]“[/FONT]But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’”
—Mark 10:6 (NKJV)

Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

When the Bible mentions marriage, which is ordained by God, I found this definition:
It is always between a man and a woman. Marriage goes beyond the earthly covenant, but it is a divine picture of the relationship between Christ and his Bride, the Church. It is a spiritual representation of our relationship with God[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif].. [/FONT]

The image of God is both male and female and is reflected in a godly union between male and female where the creative power of God, His life-giving, His self-giving and His moral nature are perfectly expressed. This is only possible in a heterosexual union[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif].[/FONT]

Women or females have wombs, and they have the ability to bear children. This is the most distinct and unique difference between her and a man.


“A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this” (Deuteronomy 22:5).



If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual anal intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error.

The Bible clearly and consistently labels any sexual activity outside of marriage or not between a man and a woman as sin, rebellion against God’s plan

Romans 1:26
.26 For this reason wGod gave them up to xdishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, ymen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)


[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]We will keep our Gender in Heaven. It is significant.[/FONT]
http://www.crosswalk.com/video-q-a/what-does-the-bible-say-about-gender-transgender-issues.html


Blog with discussion ~ I thought this was really interesting. A lot of thought and good discussion/confession,if you haven’t seen it, already.. ~
What Does the Bible Say About Transgender/Transsexuals and Transvestites?
http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.ca/2011/10/what-does-bible-say-about.html





[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif].[/FONT]

GenetoJean said:

I just try to make people realise that there are actual people behind these topics they talk about and we have really struggled with this. I dont even try to get them to change their minds When responding, I only try to ask or say something once. After that I just move along.

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That's always a good approach, although I do have something to else to say that's a bit more general. If this forum has taught me anything it's that because most of us have fundamentally different understandings about the nature of reality and some adhere to certain assumptions that others of us reject, we're going to inevitably speak past one another. It doesn't matter, for instance, how much you try to tell others that there's a human being behind the issue. Even if you manage to get them to be less vitriolic and cavalierly dismissive, that won't necessarily make them stop thinking a phenomenon is bad or in need of correcting. Ultimately if order for real change to occur one must tackle the root, which is a much more complex and difficult conversation -- one that is made unnecessarily more difficult with all of the hoops and hurdles this forum's administration erects and enforces.

poolerboy0077 said:

That's always a good approach, although I do have something to else to say that's a bit more general. If this forum has taught me anything it's that because most of us have fundamentally different understandings about the nature of reality and some adhere to certain assumptions that others of us reject, we're going to inevitably speak past one another. It doesn't matter, for instance, how much you try to tell others that there's a human being behind the issue. Even if you manage to get them to be less vitriolic and cavalierly dismissive, that won't necessarily make them stop thinking a phenomenon is bad or in need of correcting. Ultimately if order for real change to occur one must tackle the root, which is a much more complex and difficult conversation -- one that is made unnecessarily more difficult with all of the hoops and hurdles this forum's administration erects and enforces.

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I will let others tackle the root, I just try to make peoples lives more pleasant. If I can get just one person every so often to stop looking at another person as a horrible thing and show them compassion, even if they disagree with what they are doing, I will be happy.

Geneto Jean: I dont care if a person disagrees with me as long as they show compasion. What I dont like is when a person thinks I am willfulling going against God's will. I may be mistaken about what His will is but I want to follow it.

It doesn't matter what anyone says, it only matters what God does.. He is the rightful and fair Judge. In the end, He will be the One we will be standing before and give account to, just like they will be..

melody123 said:

Geneto Jean: I dont care if a person disagrees with me as long as they show compasion. What I dont like is when a person thinks I am willfulling going against God's will. I may be mistaken about what His will is but I want to follow it.

It doesn't matter what anyone says, it only matters what God does.. He is the rightful and fair Judge. In the end, He will be the One we will be standing before and give account to, just like they will be..

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Melody, I appreciate our conversation and my comment wasnt directed toward you. I feel your compassion and appreciate it.

Thank you for your thorough response Melody. I'm going to snip some of it out just for brevity. I fully intend to maintain the meaning of your post.

melody123 said:

[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif]Hi. [/FONT]OK. To me this verse means God made us and intimately knew us as a whole, in every which possible way, inside, outside , spirit, soul and body.
...

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Ok, but it still seems to assume that God does not simply know that He made someone who is both male and female either physically (in the case of intersex) or mentally (as in the case of a transsexual). It is a simple matter to prove that the physical happens. It is harder to prove in the case of a brain, because you simply can't pull the brain out, take some pictures and put it back. Studies are still early in demonstrating this, but the results are showing just that.

The point being, I am not arguing against the idea that God knows us. God would know everything about us. I argue against the idea that God micromanages our development, because our development, as a whole, as problems and lots of them. I can understand God allowing birth defects. I cannot justify a good God intentionally creating them.

Have you heard of the pregnant transgender woman to man who had 3 children ( married to a woman)?

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I have heard about him. While I don't judge him for how he has handled having children, I understand it can be very confusing to others to hear how depressing it is for someone to be in a body that conflicts with who they say they are and then to make use of that body as it exists biologically. I can't speak for this guy, but Dysphoria isn't experienced the same by every person, just as giving birth isn't experienced the same by every person. For some it is deeply troubling, while others it can be mild to the point where transition is not necessary at all.

When the Bible mentions marriage, which is ordained by God, I found this definition:
It is always between a man and a woman. Marriage goes beyond the earthly covenant, but it is a divine picture of the relationship between Christ and his Bride, the Church. It is a spiritual representation of our relationship with God[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif].. [/FONT]

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Just as a note here, this subject has nothing to do with marriage or sexuality. A male to female transsexual is not transitioning because she wants to be with men. There are plenty who are still attracted to women or even no one at all. This also says nothing about whether the person wants to get married. This is not a situation which has anything to do with sex or sexual attraction.

“A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this” (

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Deuteronomy 22:5).

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This is a reference I'm used to seeing. I can assure you I'm no longer wearing the clothing for the improper gender and I never will again. I find it uncomfortable.

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We will keep our Gender in Heaven. It is significant.

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http://www.crosswalk.com/video-q-a/what-does-the-bible-say-about-gender-transgender-issues.html

Blog with discussion ~ I thought this was really interesting. A lot of thought and good discussion/confession,if you haven’t seen it, already.. ~
What Does the Bible Say About Transgender/Transsexuals and Transvestites?
http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.ca/2011/10/what-does-bible-say-about.html
[FONT=Arial Narrow","sans-serif][/FONT]

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I did not watch the video, because I'm not fond of watching videos on my computer, but I did read some of the article. It leaves a lot out of information. I'm sorry, when I get to the point where someone refers to a medically necessary (according to every major medical association in the US) procedure as "mutilation", I realize 2 things: 1) they have no interested in the actual subject matter and 2) I have no desire to hear what they have to say.

The author also talks about chromosomes as if XX and XY were the only options. This further demonstrates that the author is uninformed on the subject matter.

The definitions the author uses of "transgender" and "transsexual" are inaccurate, though "transvestite" was properly defined, but then failed when stating such people are not "transgender" (they fall under the fairly broad definition of transgender). The more accurate definition of transgender is someone who believes they are not strictly male or female, but exist outside the gender binary. A transsexual is someone who intends to or is transitioning (including the use of hormones or surgery), not, as the author states, someone who has gone all the way already.

Autumnleaf said:

It seems like it is a denial of what a person is born to be. I hear of hate speech and sort of roll my eyes at that as I think its an attempt to dismiss the point of what the person is trying to say.

It seems like the real hate involves how the person feels about themselves that they feel they have to go to the length of physically mutilating themselves and denying what they are, then they pretend to be something they are not. If they are successful at the lie they tend to take pride in it.

I have trouble understanding such things.

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It is an effort to find or make peace within one's self.