Ex-Christians

Aldebaran · Aug 27, 2014

Archaeopteryx said:
I don't see why those two are considered mutually exclusive, given that many people who depend on government in various ways also depend on churches and religious charities in other ways. It simply isn't an either-or situation.

I noticed you substituted the words "churches and religious charities" for the word "God" from my post that you quoted. Way to change the subject.

SecretNiqabi · Aug 27, 2014

biggles53 said:
One can only hope that you will continue the questioning process...

If you're talking about me becoming atheist or leaving religion, I cannot see this happening. I have read/heard many debates, arguments and works by atheist authors (I've read many of the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Ibn Warraq, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and some others, such as Nietzsche) and whilst I understand and respect their points of view, I cannot myself accept them.

Aldebaran · Aug 27, 2014

Eudaimonist said:
Christians started the dependence game. Don't be surprised when it continues in other forms.

Care to elaborate?

Supernaut · Aug 27, 2014

SecretNiqabi said:
If you're talking about me becoming atheist or leaving religion, I cannot see this happening. I have read/heard many debates, arguments and works by atheist authors (I've read many of the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Ibn Warraq, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and some others, such as Nietzsche) and whilst I understand and respect their points of view, I cannot myself accept them.

Not the case for all atheists/agnostics.

SecretNiqabi · Aug 27, 2014

Supernaut said:
Not the case for all atheists/agnostics.

I'll stick to my Islaam.

Loudmouth · Aug 27, 2014

Lik3 said:
I was wondering about this just now and I wonder if there is such thing as an ex-Christian. Are they believers who have given up on their faith or have they believed at all? I am asking this because there are/were some sites online about ex-Christians and their opposing views on Christianity. I was wondering if they were truly saved to begin with, though I rather not go into someone else's spiritual state. I witnessed to an ex-Christian and I am not sure I got to him or her but my opinion was truly appreciated. Could it be that a Christian sees the wrong things that are going on in the church and they become apostate?

For me, personally, I just no longer believed. It is like no longer believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy (I only mention those because you may have some experience in believing in those things).

My experiences in the church were all positive. There were "bad things" that happened in my congregation, but I just viewed this as human failings. By and large, I saw a group of people who went out of their way to be kind to others, and tried their best to live a christian life. For 99% of the congregation that I grew up in, their hearts were in the right place.

So I didn't see the wrong things. It just so happened that at some point in my life I just stopped believing. I asked my self if I really believed what was being taught, and the answer was a resounding, "NO". I actually felt a bit dishonest going through the motions when I attended church services and Sunday school classes. I really don't see how anyone could have done something different to keep me within the church, short of a Manchurian Candidate-like brainwashing.

biggles53 · Aug 27, 2014

SecretNiqabi said:
If you're talking about me becoming atheist or leaving religion, I cannot see this happening. I have read/heard many debates, arguments and works by atheist authors (I've read many of the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Ibn Warraq, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and some others, such as Nietzsche) and whilst I understand and respect their points of view, I cannot myself accept them.

I'm guessing that, at some stage in the past, you probably felt much the same about your Christianity....

Yet here you are.....

SecretNiqabi · Aug 27, 2014

biggles53 said:
I'm guessing that, at some stage in the past, you probably felt much the same about your Christianity....

Yet here you are.....

I've often felt, looking back, that any faith I had in Christianity was purely the result of circumstance, and some deep desire to follow the 'correct' path, even though I was also aware that whilst I was trying to be the pious believer, I had some deep concerns and a feeling that something about the Christian faith wasn't right, and that for me personally Christianity was not the best match to what I actually believed.

When I discovered Islam, it wasn't a case of converting from believing one set of beliefs to another, but I found quickly that Islam's beliefs fitted perfectly with what I felt at the time to be those that I believed. It was like trying to make a square peg fit a round hole for a long time, only to then find the correct round hole.

In short, I was likely always a Muslim, but just did not know.

Aldebaran · Aug 27, 2014

Loudmouth said:
My experiences in the church were all positive. There were "bad things" that happened in my congregation, but I just viewed this as human failings.

Were these things what contributed to no longer believing?

Loudmouth said:
By and large, I saw a group of people who went out of their way to be kind to others, and tried their best to live a christian life. For 99% of the congregation that I grew up in, their hearts were in the right place.

So I didn't see the wrong things. It just so happened that at some point in my life I just stopped believing. I asked my self if I really believed what was being taught, and the answer was a resounding, "NO".

What was being taught? Did they emphasize a belief in Christ and what He did for us? Or did they focus more on things we are supposed to do?

Loudmouth said:
I actually felt a bit dishonest going through the motions when I attended church services and Sunday school classes. I really don't see how anyone could have done something different to keep me within the church, short of a Manchurian Candidate-like brainwashing.

Some "church experiences" can be dry and uninspired. Some places focus more on a structured service and the focus is on that. If that's the case, I can see how you'd lose interest. In fact, I don't even go to church anymore because I find it to be empty of anything much meaningful. At the same time though, a church experience isn't what Christianity is based on. If it was, it would be called Churchianity. For some, that's what it's all about. A belief in and a relationship with Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is what Christianity is all about. A church building, pews, hymnals, and the structured setting is irrevelant to that.

biggles53 · Aug 27, 2014

SecretNiqabi said:
I've often felt, looking back, that any faith I had in Christianity was purely the result of circumstance, and some deep desire to follow the 'correct' path, even though I was also aware that whilst I was trying to be the pious believer, I had some deep concerns and a feeling that something about the Christian faith wasn't right, and that for me personally Christianity was not the best match to what I actually believed.

When I discovered Islam, it wasn't a case of converting from believing one set of beliefs to another, but I found quickly that Islam's beliefs fitted perfectly with what I felt at the time to be those that I believed. It was like trying to make a square peg fit a round hole for a long time, only to then find the correct round hole.

In short, I was likely always a Muslim, but just did not know.

Yours is not an unfamiliar story........without wanting to try my hand at prediction, many people I have seen in your position who move from one religion to another, often keep moving......until they come to a logical conclusion...

You would realise that, from my point of view, you are merely swapping one set of evidence-free beliefs with another....and expressing a confirmation bias in order to justify it...

stevevw · Aug 28, 2014

I have found that the main reason Christians will find it hard to stay faithful is that we live in a world that has an allure and its constantly calling us to give in to our fleshly natures. Its a battle and is hard to keep the faith. After all you are having to forgo what may seem more easier and comfortable to do. Its hard to store up your riches in heaven and not go for the glitter of whats right in front of you. Especially nowadays where the world has become even more about self and there are more comforts. But all that glitters is not gold and what looks like something that will give you a better life and make you more happier will end up letting you down in the end.

I know its hard to hang in there and not be swayed by the constant noise of people saying that believing in God is illogical and unreal. They will keep attacking you and it may seem like on the surface what they are saying makes more sense. But this world is only a temporary thing and all that is presented will fade away. The road to sin is wide and easy but the path to follow God is narrow and against what looks good in this world. But you have to see beyond all that and trust in God and He will come good in the end. You will find what is the true key to life and it will give you an abundance of peace and joy knowing that you are a child of God and He will look after you forever.
Matthew 6:19 - 20
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

biggles53 · Aug 28, 2014

Most Christians that 'lose' their faith report that they do so as a result of asking the kinds of questions that they were unable to ask in the past....the answers they come up with as a result often end up pointing them in a particular direction...

If you took the time to listen, rather than preach, you would find this is the case...it's got little to do with 'fleshly desires'.....

stevevw · Aug 28, 2014

biggles53 said:
Most Christians that 'lose' their faith report that they do so as a result of asking the kinds of questions that they were unable to ask in the past....the answers they come up with as a result often end up pointing them in a particular direction...

If you took the time to listen, rather than preach, you would find this is the case...it's got little to do with 'fleshly desires'.....

But Ive already done that and God was still the answer. Why do you think Jesus says that we need to become like little children with the type of Faith we need to come to God. Its not about all those wordy questions. According to the wordy view a person who believes in a supernatural being is deluded. There is no such thing and it is illogical. According to the worldly view we should only trust the material and physical world and everything needs to add up and all fit a certain reality.

But when we come to God our eyes and hearts are open to the spiritual realm of God. You believe that there is no God and everything comes from a self creating process that is random and be chance. I believe there is order and design and life and creation is to magnificent. A belief in God isnt based on the worldly evidence you want to use. It is by faith and faith alone. Then God reveals Himself and the holy spirit testifies of Gods greatness. The evidence for this to me and other Christians is a great as any evidence you want to present.

I have asked all those questions and still I believe. I dont hide from that fact and I still believe despite that. My life is every bit as real as yours and in fact I believe it is lived more in the truth. Jesus is the truth for life and there is no greater truth. People in this world look in a 1000 places for what life is and all they will find is a poor counterfeit of life. You would be better off trying to help all those poor souls who are lost in this world by following the false hopes it offers. There are many more people suffering and needing help besides you trying to expose people that are living a good life by following God.

biggles53 · Aug 28, 2014

You'll note that I said "most", not "every Christian including Steve"....!

Since you have difficulty understanding, I'll repeat.....Most Christians that become atheists say that it is because the answers they got to those questions just didn't make sense...

I am equally sure that there are a few like you who will always find the answer they want, whether it makes sense or not....

biggles53 · Aug 28, 2014

stevevw said:
Why do you think Jesus says that we need to become like little children with the type of Faith we need to come to God.

Pretty obvious isn't it...!?

Anyone that looks at it with a mature, adult viewpoint will see it for the nonsense it is...!

Why do you think Santa only 'works' for kids...?

Why do you think the Catholics say that it's important to 'get 'em while they're young'...!?

You wait until people reach the age of reason before you introduce superstitious claptrap and they won't buy a bar of it....!

stevevw · Aug 28, 2014

biggles53 said:
You'll note that I said "most", not "every Christian including Steve"....!

Since you have difficulty understanding, I'll repeat.....Most Christians that become atheists say that it is because the answers they got to those questions just didn't make sense...

I am equally sure that there are a few like you who will always find the answer they want, whether it makes sense or not....

The only problem I have already asked all those questions and still I believe. My life is every bit as good as yours or anyone elses. In fact I would say it is better.

biggles53 · Aug 28, 2014

stevevw said:
The only problem I have already asked all those questions and still I believe. My life is every bit as good as yours or anyone elses. In fact I would say it is better.

Ummmmm....it's not about YOU Steve....let me remind you of YOUR comment, to which I was responding...

"I have found that the main reason Christians........"

You see, you were trying to make a point about what most Christians think, not what you, an individual Christian, thinks....

stevevw · Aug 28, 2014

biggles53 said:
Pretty obvious isn't it...!?

Anyone that looks at it with a mature, adult viewpoint will see it for the nonsense it is...!

Why do you think Santa only 'works' for kids...?

Why do you think the Catholics say that it's important to 'get 'em while they're young'...!?

You wait until people reach the age of reason before you introduce superstitious claptrap and they won't buy a bar of it....!

Well Christians are every bit as mature as anyone else and make mature decisions about their lives all the time. Non believers can make immature decisions about their lives as well. so that doesn't mean anything. Non believers are believing all sorts of silly things in life all the time.

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2014

stevevw said:
I have found that the main reason Christians will find it hard to stay faithful is that we live in a world that has an allure and its constantly calling us to give in to our fleshly natures. Its a battle and is hard to keep the faith. After all you are having to forgo what may seem more easier and comfortable to do. Its hard to store up your riches in heaven and not go for the glitter of whats right in front of you. Especially nowadays where the world has become even more about self and there are more comforts. But all that glitters is not gold and what looks like something that will give you a better life and make you more happier will end up letting you down in the end.

I know its hard to hang in there and not be swayed by the constant noise of people saying that believing in God is illogical and unreal. They will keep attacking you and it may seem like on the surface what they are saying makes more sense. But this world is only a temporary thing and all that is presented will fade away. The road to sin is wide and easy but the path to follow God is narrow and against what looks good in this world. But you have to see beyond all that and trust in God and He will come good in the end. You will find what is the true key to life and it will give you an abundance of peace and joy knowing that you are a child of God and He will look after you forever.
Matthew 6:19 - 20
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

This strikes me as something Christians tell themselves to ease the doubt they struggle with. It's vaguely familiar to me in that I recall having similar thoughts when I was a Christian. Now I find it offensive because it implies that those who have left their religion have done so not because of any concerns regarding the truth of its dogmas, but because they simply wanted to pursue the "fleshly desires" their religion prohibited. This is a very uncharitable interpretation of why people lose their faith. It ignores the struggles that these individuals go through and the inner turmoil they face as they gradually admit to themselves that they no longer uphold the faith.

bhsmte · Aug 28, 2014

stevevw said:
I have found that the main reason Christians will find it hard to stay faithful is that we live in a world that has an allure and its constantly calling us to give in to our fleshly natures. Its a battle and is hard to keep the faith. After all you are having to forgo what may seem more easier and comfortable to do. Its hard to store up your riches in heaven and not go for the glitter of whats right in front of you. Especially nowadays where the world has become even more about self and there are more comforts. But all that glitters is not gold and what looks like something that will give you a better life and make you more happier will end up letting you down in the end.

I know its hard to hang in there and not be swayed by the constant noise of people saying that believing in God is illogical and unreal. They will keep attacking you and it may seem like on the surface what they are saying makes more sense. But this world is only a temporary thing and all that is presented will fade away. The road to sin is wide and easy but the path to follow God is narrow and against what looks good in this world. But you have to see beyond all that and trust in God and He will come good in the end. You will find what is the true key to life and it will give you an abundance of peace and joy knowing that you are a child of God and He will look after you forever.
Matthew 6:19 - 20
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

That may be what you want to believe why people leave their faith, but if you read polls completed on this subject, you are completely off base.

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