I'm in full agreement with this. Calvinists do not say less than this. We say more.
Let me ask you: why would one person decide to cooperate with Jesus and another refuse to do so? What's the relevant difference?
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Ask a Philosophical Calvinist Christian
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I'm in full agreement with this. Calvinists do not say less than this. We say more.
Let me ask you: why would one person decide to cooperate with Jesus and another refuse to do so? What's the relevant difference?
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catholichomeschooler
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We are free to choose.
God did not create robots.
Only God knows why some people reject his grace.
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Is it because of something in the person? Is a believer more intelligent than a non-believer? More honest? More humble? Have a better heart?
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catholichomeschooler
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Only God knows. We are free creatures. God's grace reaches out to each of us. To whom much is given, much is expected.
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I agree that God knows but he also reveals the difference to us.
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:44 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:63-65 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.
It would seem as if the difference is the grace of God. Unless you have some other way to explain what Jesus meant?
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catholichomeschooler
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You might have a point if that was all you had read of scripture. The problem is that these passages in John 6 are referring to the disciples.
John 6
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Here's a more complete picture:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1Cor. 15:21-22
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Rom. 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
As you can see, Christ has done what is necessary for all men to be saved. Now the ball is in our court. We choose to cooperate with his grace or reject it.
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Why is this a problem? This doesn't change the meaning of Jesus' words one bit. He had many disciples who were not truly elect. There are many in the church today who don't really believe.
Here's a more complete picture:
A better translation of this verse reads: "The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."
This is indeed true. The grace of God is not just for Israel but for people from every nation who call upon the name of the Lord. This verse presents no problem for Calvinism.
Here's an interesting verse. What does Jesus mean by "all people". In John's writings "all people", "all", and "whole world" usually refers to "people from every nation." Here are some other examples:
1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Compare this with John's commentary on Caiaphas' statement:
John 11:49-52 - But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish. He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
The language is almost identical. In John's letter he says: "not for us only, but also for the sins of the whole world." In John's gospel he says: "not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
John, when he says "all", is not usually talking about every single individual, but people from all nations. Therefore the verse you cited does not pose a problem for Calvinism.
All in Adam will die. All in Christ will be made alive. Nothing in here poses a problem for Calvinism.
Same as above. You've got to agree that this only applies to those who are in Christ, otherwise you would believe in universal salvation.
If Christ only made it possible to be saved and salvation depended in any way upon the will of man then no man would be saved.
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catholichomeschooler
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When you come upon verses that prove you wrong, you just rewrite them!
All men means all men.
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I've given you viable interpretations of the verses you've cited but you've not explained the verses I've cited. How do you deal with Jesus' statements in John?
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catholichomeschooler
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You've simply given me Calvinist talking points to justify your position that scripture means something different than what it actually says.
I've already told you that Jesus was speaking of choosing his disciples. That was not relevant to salvation.
God wants all men to be saved. Unless you believe that all men will be saved, then there must be a reason other than God's will that some men are not saved.
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I find this an unviable interpretation for the following reasons:
- The disciples that Jesus is talking to is a large crowd of followers, not just the twelve. The twelve are present but many "disciples" who were among the number of the 5000 who were miraculously fed are present. He is addressing them as well.
- In verse 35 of the same chapter Jesus says "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst." This is very universal language. "Whoever" means "whoever", not just the disciples who are present. He then says: "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." same train of thought. Therefore he must be talking about more than the twelve and more than the large crowd of disciples present. He is talking about all of the elect.
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catholichomeschooler
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Jesus addresses many different audiences.
He makes the distinction quite clear here between those he has chosen to lead the Church and those who will believe through their message:
John 17
6“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power ofb your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe byc that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me
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Albion
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'Tree of Life' is correct, though. All you are saying is that there are different ways that the Elect are reached with the Gospel. A common misconception is that if one is chosen by God as one of his Elect, he will just miraculously believe everything without the Word being brought to him by evangelists or missionaries and whether or not he ever sees a Bible or hears a sermon.
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catholichomeschooler
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He is incorrect and I proved it. Please read the post above.
God wants all men to be saved. Our eternal destiny is determined by our own actions. We choose to cooperate with or reject God's grace. We can't do it alone, but that doesn't mean we don't have to do anything.
Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
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Albion
Facilitator
Uh, no. You didn't. Your private interpretation of scripture has let you down.
Once again, your paraphrase of the Scripture verse is tailored to make it seem to support your point. But that's not what the verse says.
So...this would be your theory, then. But the Bible is laden with passages, some of them quoted here already, that say there is nothing we can do to promote the chances of our salvation, that it is a free gift, and is obtained by us through Faith.
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You may be convinced of your own interpretations but you have failed to persuade me. You haven't addressed the verses that I cited or shown why my interpretations of your verses are unviable.
I fully agree. Again, Calvinists don't say less than this. We say more. Salvation is by faith in Christ (what you are calling cooperation). Furthermore, God gives his elect the grace to believe and cooperate with Jesus.
Romans 8:29-30 - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
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In terms of pure numbers (and only considering those alive today) the Roman church far outnumbers other churches.
I'm not sure if it's accurate to say that the reformed perspective is in the minority but if I had to guess I would say that it is.
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