The question of pasts (moved from Singles forum)

If you are a virgin and it's a prerequisite that your mate be also,this should be brought up WAY early in the courtship. How cruel to string them along and pull the rug out later.

DarkWalker's 3 points were excellent as a guide:

1. Are you a virgin?
This is pertinent, not for the sake of discerning holiness, but because it sets the expectation of experience. I am a virgin, so on my wedding night, I will likely fumble around. With apologies to my future wife, it's not going to be something out of a romance novel. If you have sexual experience, you may or may not like having to bring your spouse up to speed on your likes and dislikes.

2. Do you have any illnesses I should know about? This is self-explanatory. You don't want to receive an unexpected "gift" that keeps on giving on your wedding night.

3. Have you had any experiences that influence your perception of sex? I would want to know if my wife had been assaulted in any way, lost a child due to miscarriage, found basic sexual behavior to be unpleasant, or had any views about sex that were influenced by something she had been told. I would also want to know if she struggled with any kind of addiction to inappropriate contentography or masturbation, because these things would influence more than just our sex life as a couple.

DarkWalker said:

This article does not present a strictly traditional or orthodox view on the issue of sexual purity, but the author does make some good points about the issue of virginity and how sex is taught to people within the church (especially children and teens):

I Waited Until My Wedding Night To Lose My Virginity And I Wish I Hadn’t | Thought Catalog

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I think Samantha Pugsley's experience isn't the norm. I went to Catholic school for nine years and while premarital sex was discouraged, no one ever told us that sex was dirty, we would burn in Hell for it, and it was basically the greatest of all sins. I think Samantha Pugsley went to a church with extreme views and closely identified herself as a virgin and special for her virginity to a degree that adversely impacted her that you don't see in everyday society.

This a rebuttal article and worth reading:

I Waited Until My Wedding To Lose My Virginity, and It’s the Best Thing I Ever Did | Phylicia Delta

The bio for Samantha Pugsley who wrote "I Waited Until My Wedding Night to Lose My Virginity And I Wish I Hadn't": http://www.xojane.com/author/samantha-pugsley

DarkWalker said:

This article does not present a strictly traditional or orthodox view on the issue of sexual purity, but the author does make some good points about the issue of virginity and how sex is taught to people within the church (especially children and teens):

I Waited Until My Wedding Night To Lose My Virginity And I Wish I Hadn’t | Thought Catalog

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That was a good read, thanks for sharing it DarkWalker.

I have to admit, I can fully attest to sharing the same feelings she felt when she and her husband had sex on their wedding night and thereafter. After my wife and I got married, I still felt like we were "doing something wrong" by having sex because for most of my life a very similar message was pounded into my skull.

I remember in sixth grade (so, age 12) my small class of 18 was on a class trip to San Francisco, and while we were there my friends dad lectured the class on the merits of purity and then compelled us all to sign purity cards. I have no idea what happened to mine but the pledge was essentially the same as the one that Samantha Pugsley committed to when she was 10.

I'm started to question whether such an aggressive campaign in favor of virginity actually does more harm than good. The outcomes I've seen most often are either: the person in question is so rebuffed by how controlling the situation feels that they rebel and engage in sexual activity at a very young age. Or, like Pugsley, they are so committed to abstinence that it becomes commingled with their essence and once they lose their virginity (in an "appropriate" context) they feel empty and wrong.

If someone, out of their own volition, wants to commit to themselves to maintain their virginity until marriage that's fantastic. I think if they arrive at that conclusion without any direct influence then the results will be healthier. The crux is making sure the outside pressure isn't so overwhelming that they're pushed into rebellion or conviction if they do it with a spouse.

Virginity Cults?

GQ Chris said:

Virginity Cults?

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Indeed...


Very odd.

As a former Southern Baptist, I can attest to the idea of a "virginity cult." My church implemented the "True Love Waits" program, from which the "oath" in the article I posted is derived. I made that commitment, and got a ring to show my commitment to others. We had a ceremony, with all the celebration that accompanies a baptism.

I was also taught, during the course of the program, that sex is the forbidden fruit. It is dirty, nasty, and wrong, and you only do it with the one person you love. I was told not to think about it or talk about it (after six months of doing exactly that in the program), and I was definitely told not to do it. One out of three isn't bad, right?

From what I heard, the girls learned that boys are visual, so the mere sight of them was enough to send us into a lustful frenzy. We were positioned a bit higher than dogs, in that regard, in that we could just barely contain ourselves. As guys, we learned that women were given to seduction, and they would lure us in with their "feminine attributes" to obtain what they wanted.

None of this was said blatantly, but it was taught in the concepts we learned. We learned all about the verses in the Bible that said "thou shalt not, you dirty rascal," while avoiding the verses that taught us the pure and true nature of sex. Song of Solomon was never referenced, since the committee on curriculum deemed it too explicit.

When it came to virginity, nothing but virginity was acceptable. If a girl lost her virginity, she was doomed to be shunned by moral men (who are only slightly better than dogs). If a man lost his virginity, he was doomed to be shunned by virtuous (read: seductive) women. It was ground into our skulls that virginity was of the utmost importance.

If you looked at inappropriate contentography, masturbated, or had a lustful thought (including thinking a girl/woman was sexually appealing), you weren't a virgin. Technically, by that definition, I had lost my virginity before I ever entered the program. Oh, and don't get me started on same-sex attraction. If you even struggled with it, no one had a clue how to help you understand what it was you were dealing with--and you sure as all Heck weren't going to talk to your parents about it.

So yes, there are perceptions about virginity within many churches that put it on a pedestal, and add a huge side of guilt to an impossible standard. It was years and years and years before I learned the actual definition of "fornication," which is nowhere near as strict as I was led to believe. Of course, that isn't license, but it's still nice to know that some of those times when I beat myself up for "sinning," I hadn't sinned at all.

With my kind of upbringing (which I have heard from others as well), it's difficult to get the idolatry of virginity out of your belief system. I'm just now managing to do so, and it's taken a huge weight off my shoulders. I might care about the virginity of my significant other, but I don't want to care. I shouldn't care. I can't imagine getting to know a woman, finding that I really care for her, and then dumping her simply because she's not a virgin. If I get upset that she's not a virgin but don't want to dump her, what am I gonna do? Get a list of her previous partners and go after 'em with a baseball bat?

Virginity is a great thing, and it's important--for us, personally. It's a "between God and me" thing, and perhaps only a footnote in a relationship.

"So, are you a virgin?"
"Well, yeah."
"Cool. So what do you want for lunch?"

"So, are you a virgin?"
"Well, no."
"Cool. So what do you want for lunch?"

To continue this rant-input-post-thing, please deposit 2.5x10^16 reputation points. Or a cookie. We also take bribes, valuables, and hugs. And cookies.

GQ Chris said:

Virginity Cults?

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ReesePiece23 said:

Indeed...


Very odd.

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Hmm.. Vestal Virgins? Cult of Diana?

If you know your bible you'd know that God is the God of Rahab, who is called a harlot, and there's a handful of similar things in the Old Testament, even Christ saying that harlots would enter the Kingdom before certain others. Such high importance placed on virginity didn't seem to enter into the faith until the faith traveled West.

MOD HAT ON



UPDATED: Because the Singles forum does not allow the topic of sex according to the Statement of Purpose, this thread has been moved to the Ethics & Morality forum. Reopening now.

MOD HAT OFF

I don't want to know too much information about a partners sexual past, at least at first. I know I'll think stupid things and act slightly different. I want to treat them according to how they are with me.

leothelioness said:

I see this issue brought up a lot in these forums and others as well; the issue of a SO's sexual past.

Why do people worry so much about it? It's not something you can change, it happened before you met that person, so why worry about it? I don't get it. I personally wouldn't be concerned at all about it. I would tend towards a "don't ask, don't tell" method.

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Don't worry about it. If your SO wants to bring it up, then that's fine. All a matter of choice within the relationship between you and your spouse.

leothelioness said:

I see this issue brought up a lot in these forums and others as well; the issue of a SO's sexual past.

Why do people worry so much about it?

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Jealousy is irrational, isn´t it?

DarkWalker,

Your "sex education" was messed up! Have you been in contact with anyone else that went through that horrible "program"? Were any of them negatively affected? I can't she how such teaching can't cause long term damage.

leothelioness said:

I see this issue brought up a lot in these forums and others as well; the issue of a SO's sexual past.

Why do people worry so much about it? It's not something you can change, it happened before you met that person, so why worry about it? I don't get it. I personally wouldn't be concerned at all about it. I would tend towards a "don't ask, don't tell" method.

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That really depends on the specifics - it could amount to burying one's head in the sand and therefore an unwise move. For one thing, what was in their past may be an indication of who they still are in one way or other and could arise in the future. No pat answers though.

leothelioness said:

I see this issue brought up a lot in these forums and others as well; the issue of a SO's sexual past.

Why do people worry so much about it? It's not something you can change, it happened before you met that person, so why worry about it? I don't get it. I personally wouldn't be concerned at all about it. I would tend towards a "don't ask, don't tell" method.

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I think that most people don't need to go beyond a general knowledge of their partner's sexual past (they're a virgin, they used to sleep around, they've been with a handful of people, etc). Unless there is some extenuating, lifelong circumstance that still affects them in their current relationships (chronic STD, they have a child, etc)... the past needs to be left where it is. People who press and prod and poke around for the sordid details of past sexual escapades are generally rife with insecurity and are looking for reasons to be jealous and feed their own lack of self worth.

I have no clue how many people my husband slept with when he was younger. Nor does he know how many I slept with. Those were different eras in our lives, we were different people, we were both living celibate lives for years before we met each other. So those past actions have no bearing on the present and don't need to be known. The past needs to stay in the past.

Inkachu said:

I think that most people don't need to go beyond a general knowledge of their partner's sexual past (they're a virgin, they used to sleep around, they've been with a handful of people, etc). Unless there is some extenuating, lifelong circumstance that still affects them in their current relationships (chronic STD, they have a child, etc)... the past needs to be left where it is. People who press and prod and poke around for the sordid details of past sexual escapades are generally rife with insecurity and are looking for reasons to be jealous and feed their own lack of self worth.

I have no clue how many people my husband slept with when he was younger. Nor does he know how many I slept with. Those were different eras in our lives, we were different people, we were both living celibate lives for years before we met each other. So those past actions have no bearing on the present and don't need to be known. The past needs to stay in the past.

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Really well put.

leothelioness said:

I see this issue brought up a lot in these forums and others as well; the issue of a SO's sexual past.

Why do people worry so much about it? It's not something you can change, it happened before you met that person, so why worry about it? I don't get it. I personally wouldn't be concerned at all about it. I would tend towards a "don't ask, don't tell" method.

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Definitely agree on all counts.

Darth Bagel said:

Really well put.

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Why, thanks!

I've seen enough threads here on CF where someone "can't get past" their SO's sexual experiences. Sometimes they even say they've talked about it and their SO has apologized to them about it. That both angers and saddens me. Apologize for what? They didn't do anything to you if it happened before they met you! So then you've got one person pumping themselves full of jealous insecurity, and the other filling up with guilt and remorse over something they can't change and didn't even happen in their current relationship... it's recipe for disaster on all counts. DON'T do that!

Inkachu said:

I've seen enough threads here on CF where someone "can't get past" their SO's sexual experiences. Sometimes they even say they've talked about it and their SO has apologized to them about it. That both angers and saddens me. Apologize for what? They didn't do anything to you if it happened before they met you! So then you've got one person pumping themselves full of jealous insecurity, and the other filling up with guilt and remorse over something they can't change and didn't even happen in their current relationship... it's recipe for disaster on all counts. DON'T do that!

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Yeah, it's barmy isn't it? Making someone apologise? Sounds to me as if the person in question has some MAJOR control issues.

And to pertain to what someone else mooted earlier - (I say someone else because I'm too bone-idle to read back through the thread to find who said it) I believe that insecurity plays a major role in this. Because it's flat out wrong to project your own moral code onto someone else and expect them to follow suit. That's not love, at all.

If it really gets up your nose that much - that your partner has been with someone before you, then I'd be inclined to say that you're the one with the problem, and that you should seek some form of counselling - because controlling behaviours are no laughing matter, and worrying about someone's past is something I'd definitely place within the realms of controlling behaviours.




Right, I agreed with you, now rep me. Go on!



;-)

Dude, your avatar is making me want Reese's really badly.

^ I'll change it to something a little less distracting...