lift your hands

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

Albion said:
Honesty like that is always appreciated. I'll be happy to instruct you if you'd like.

As I've said before, we are Christians. As such we are specifically freed from continuing the OT Hebrew worship practices...and God's Word DOES say that, in case you think it's also not to be found in Scripture.

well worship means sit in church like a bump on a log and no verse says to do that so all that worship are doing something extra biblical.

Albion said:
Yes, you did.

Praising god in the dance is a way of getting refilled with the holy spirit. ONe has to be baptized in the holy spirit first, and that doesn't happen through dancing in praise to God.

Albion · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
I find it strange that people use the word worship to replace the words god used which are bow down and prostrate.

I find it strange that the few people who take that view speak or write English at all. You'd expect at least some consistency from those who think using the exact words God did are the only ones that can properly be used.

Albion · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
well worship means sit in church like a bump on a log

No, it doesn't. And even you don't take that POV except to zing other Christians. The word "worship" you have already defined as bowing and prostrating oneself, so you can't with any sense at all now say that it means sitting like a bump on a log. :doh:

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

Albion said:
No, it doesn't. And even you don't take that POV except to zing other Christians. The word "worship" you have already defined as bowing and prostrating oneself, so you can't with any sense at all now say that it means sitting like a bump on a log.

Christians say they worship God in church, Christians go to church and sit like a bump on a log through out the service. therefore they are calling their actions, which is sitting like a bump on a log, worship. So I'm defining the word by how it is used. worship is a word inveneted to replace what god said.
God said.

1 Samuel 15:25 Now, therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin,--and turn again with me, that I may bow down unto Yahweh.

and Christians changed this verse and all others that use the word bow down to this.

(KJV) 1 Samuel 15:25 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.

it's a fact worship means sit in church like a bump on a log. the zing is in the reality of it. God said to bow down to him and Christians changed it to sit in church like a bump on a log, and defined sit in church like a bump on a log as worship.

the home football team gets more praise than God does in his church. Christians have no problem shouting for joy for the home football team, but totally reject the idea of shouting for the joy of the Lord. be enthusiastic at the football game, sit like a bump on a log in the house of god. that's the reality.

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

I went to a church years ago for about a year or so and I would shout for joy, until the pastor told me to shut up and be quiet like everybody else. then one day they announced in church that some young lady had won a sporting contest. Everybody whooped and hollered in the house of God for that young lady, but for God it was shut up be quiet and sit like a bump on a log. they have no trouble shouting in church so long as the shouting isn't for God.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Christians would have no problem bowing down in the house of God to pick up a 100 dollar bill off the floor if they had to to get it, but bowing down to God in his house they would never do in a million years. well maybe once in a great great great while they would. So really the problem isn't with things like slain in the spirit, the problem is doing them in reference to God.

I use to bow down to God in my church in front of everybody till the pastor told me to stop. so ever since then I've been doing it in the back sorta on the sly and it's just as marvelous. Though I frequently am afraid that the pastor will stop even that but so far he hasn't, but Im careful about it. My point is that even in churches that prohibit certain manifestations of the spirit, there are ways to do it and still be obedient to the pastor if one looks. that one church I was speaking of earlier that stoped me from shouting for joy also stoped me from praising god in the dance, so I danced with just my feet while sitting down, and they had no problem with that. ONce I even danced my fingers on top of my head, but only once. but then I've always been kind of a lone ranger. does anybody remember the ending to most of the episodes of the lone ranger? it goes like this

"who was that masked man?"
"You don't know who that man was? That man was the loooooooooone Ranger."
Hiyo Silver away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4RHvyAFsM

Albion · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
Christians say they worship God in church, Christians go to church and sit like a bump on a log through out the service.

I'm sorry but I just can't figure what a silly comment like that is supposed to accomplish. Do you thrill to the idea of throwing it in the face of all the Christians who worship without putting themselves into trances, handling snakes, shouting and barking, falling down and twitching, displaying their body parts in front of the congregation, and all those other affectations that are so popular with certain churches?

Or do you need to reinforce some doubts you have in your own mind by constantly repeating this mantra about worship being nothing but sitting there like a bump on a log?

I can't figure it, but neither do I care to read it one more time. :wave:

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

Albion said:
I'm sorry but I just can't figure what a silly comment like that is supposed to accomplish. Do you thrill to the idea of throwing it in the face of all the Christians who worship without putting themselves into trances, handling snakes, shouting and barking, falling down and twitching, displaying their body parts in front of the congregation, and all those other affectations that are so popular with certain churches?

Or do you need to reinforce some doubts you have in your own mind by constantly repeating this mantra about worship being nothing but sitting there like a bump on a log?

I can't figure it, but neither do I care to read it one more time.

well I feel like I''m on a roll. I've learned stuff on this thread by articulating some things I've never spoken but only thought. Like what worship really means, it really means sit in your pew like a bump on a log. That was the big one, previously I didn't know how to define the word as it is used by most Christians, now I do.

reality is a hard pill to swallow. enjoy sitting in church like a bump on a log. you cant refute the charge that you sit in church like a bump on a log by saying oh we get up and dance and we get up and do this or that. No you can't refute my charge because it's the truth. most all churches, people sit through the entire service practically sitting on their pews like a bump on a log showing no emotion and making no motions with their bodies or mouths, except they sing 2 or 3 songs maybe. all you can say is it's my mantra. because you can't refute the truth that everybody knows who's ever been in a church service, which is that most all of them the people in them sit through the entire church service sitting on their pews like bumps on a log showing zero emotion except for a frown. that's how churches are set up, and Christians call that set up worship.

OopsyDaisy · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
I went to a church years ago for about a year or so and I would shout for joy, until the pastor told me to shut up and be quiet like everybody else. then one day they announced in church that some young lady had won a sporting contest. Everybody whooped and hollered in the house of God for that young lady, but for God it was shut up be quiet and sit like a bump on a log. they have no trouble shouting in church so long as the shouting isn't for God.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Christians would have no problem bowing down in the house of God to pick up a 100 dollar bill off the floor if they had to to get it, but bowing down to God in his house they would never do in a million years. well maybe once in a great great great while they would. So really the problem isn't with things like slain in the spirit, the problem is doing them in reference to God.

I use to bow down to God in my church in front of everybody till the pastor told me to stop. so ever since then I've been doing it in the back sorta on the sly and it's just as marvelous. Though I frequently am afraid that the pastor will stop even that but so far he hasn't, but Im careful about it. My point is that even in churches that prohibit certain manifestations of the spirit, there are ways to do it and still be obedient to the pastor if one looks. that one church I was speaking of earlier that stoped me from shouting for joy also stoped me from praising god in the dance, so I danced with just my feet while sitting down, and they had no problem with that. ONce I even danced my fingers on top of my head, but only once. but then I've always been kind of a lone ranger. does anybody remember the ending to most of the episodes of the lone ranger? it goes like this

"who was that masked man?"
"You don't know who that man was? That man was the loooooooooone Ranger."
Hiyo Silver away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4RHvyAFsM

Stuff the stupid pastor - who does he think he is?

drstevej · Aug 23, 2014

spirit and truth (just that simple)

bbbbbbb · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
I find it strange that people use the word worship to replace the words god used which are bow down and prostrate.

Here is a helpful reference - John 4:21-24

Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

bbbbbbb said:
Here is a helpful reference - John 4:21-24

Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

προσκυνουντας verb - present active participle - accusative plural masculine
proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o: to fawn or crouch to, i.e. prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore) -- worship

Click to expand...

John 4:24 Lexicon: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

so the greek word translated worship in john 4.24 doesn't mean sit in a church pew like a bump on a log. So john 4.24 is no proof for that widespread practice.

drstevej · Aug 23, 2014

So how is dancing prostrating yourself?

drstevej · Aug 23, 2014

Heb 11:21

By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

drstevej · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
bbbbbbb said:

Here is a helpful reference - John 4:21-24
john 4.24 doesn't mean sit in a church pew like a bump on a log.

Click to expand...

The "bump on a log" remark is just derision. Do you deny that one can worship while seated? You ridicule such persons.

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

one cannot bow down to the lord while seated in a chair. one cannot prostrate oneself before the Lord while seated in a chair. Worship is a purposely deceptive word, it serves excellently to muddy the water as to the true meaning of what God said. perhaps seated like a bump on a log is a bit derisive but it is an excellent explanation as to what I see. So maybe i'll think of a less emotionally charged term that can still convey what I am seeing. Seated doing nothing isn't quite it.

so lets look at heb. 11.21

(Rotherham) Genesis 47:31 Then he said: Come, swear to me! And he sware to him. Then did Israel bow himself down on the head of the couch.

Hebrews 11:21Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 by faith Jacob dying -- each of the sons of Joseph did bless, and did bow down upon the top of his staff;

so putting the 2 verses together we get that Jacob/Israel bowed down on the top of his staff and the head of his couch.
so heb. 11..21 does not mean Jacob sat on a chair and did nothing.

What I'm seeing here is a new insight for me. See, the greek word proskuneos literally is two words pros means towards, and kuneos means a dog. which is why the word is defined as prostrate or crouch and kiss. And that's because that's what a dog does to his superior, a dog will approach his superior in a crouched position or prostrate position and lick the hand of his master, or lick the alpha dog he is submitting to. So crouch is a rough equivalent of bow down. So bow down is an appropriate translation for heb. 11.21 because the same event in gen 47.31 uses the heb. word for bow down. So I'd say the greek word does mean bow down, but it also has meanings that the heb. word doesn't have, such as prostrate. Although one could I suppose consider prostration another form of bowing down. Technicallities.

bbbbbbb · Aug 23, 2014

Here is another helpful reference to dancing in the spirit - Romans 12:1,2

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

2ducklow · Aug 23, 2014

bbbbbbb said:
Here is another helpful reference to dancing in the spirit - Romans 12:1,2

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

the word worship isn't in either of those 2 verses. it's two words logiken and latreuo which mean reasonable service.

[which is] λογικὴν logikēn 3050 reasonable, rational from logos
λατρείαν latreian 2999 service from latreuó

Romans 12:1 Lexicon: Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
(ASV) Romans 12:1

Chapter 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

I don't see any refererence to dancing in either of those verses. renewing of your mind I think refers to reading and absorbing the word of God.

drstevej · Aug 23, 2014

Did Jacob worship at the head of the bed or leaning on a staff?
Genesis 47:31 and Hebrews 11:21

Head of bed (Genesis. 47:31)--"And he said, "Swear to me." So he swore to him. Then Israel bowed in worship at the head of the bed."

Top of staff (Heb. 11:21)--"By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff."

This is no contradiction at all. Jacob asked his son Joseph to carry his bones out of Egypt to be buried in Israel. Joseph agreed; and then at the head of the bed, he leaned on the top of his staff and worshipped.

A contradiction occurs when one statement makes the other impossible. This is not the case here. Both statements are true.

Did Jacob worship at the head of the bed or leaning on a staff? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

bbbbbbb · Aug 23, 2014

2ducklow said:
the word worship isn't in either of those 2 verses. it's two words logiken and latreuo which mean reasonable service.

Romans 12:1 Lexicon: Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
(ASV) Romans 12:1

Chapter 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

I don't see any refererence to dancing in either of those verses. renewing of your mind I think refers to reading and absorbing the word of God.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3000 Original WordWord Originlatreuofrom latris (a hired menial)Transliterated WordTDNT EntryLatreuo4:58,503Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechlat-ryoo'-o Verb Definition

to serve for hire
to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
1. in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
2. to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
  1. of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office

NAS Word Usage - Total: 22offer 1, serve 15, served 1, service 1, serving 1, worship 1, worshiper 1, worshipers 1

Hillsage · Aug 23, 2014

drstevej said:
Heb 11:21
By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Go check your Greek, leaning is added, probably by a translator who obviously never experienced true worship 'according to scripture' in any church he'd ever been in either. Even a decent translation has leaning in italics, including the NAS. So much for bbbbb's 'NAS commentary' cut/paste, I guess.

They didn't call the dark ages dark, for no reason, much was lost concerning both 'the spirit' of how you act' and 'the truth' concerning what you should do'. The church is still not restored...let alone finished unto perfection IMO.

So how is dancing prostrating yourself?

Asking questions is good....the answer is it is NOT!

And you apparently don't know/believe there's a difference between praise and worship.

Dance is not worship either, dance is praise, according to the scripture. FYI I just did a word search, and worship and dance couldn't even be found within 3 verses of each other, in the 6 translations I checked.

Psalms 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

The word worship/latreia is wrong in Romans 12:1 it should be temple service. XR with Joh 16:2, Heb 9:6

2999 latreia: ministration of God, i.e. worship

JOH 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service/latreia to God.

Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service/Latreia of God.

Simply put worship doesn't happen just because the slow music starts. Not in fundamental or fundaspiritual churches.

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