The Shema and Jesus' Obedience To It

Ratiocination

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Apologies... I hate long OP's I've tried to condense it as much as possible...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Shema
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Deuteronomy 6:4-6) “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Mark 12:28-34) Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you well said in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other than He’; 33 and this loving him with one’s whole heart and with one’s whole understanding and with one’s whole strength and this loving one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But nobody had the courage anymore to question him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It has been said that Unitarian beliefs are simply assumed rather than gleaned from an accurate understanding of the scriptures. This is obviously a highly provocative accusation as many know that the Trinity doctrine can only be 'explained' using terminology and demonstrations found nowhere in the bible whatsoever, they are infact all external from God's written word.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus' own testimony and demonstration on the matter should be of the utmost importance to those that bear his name as Christians. Infact no one has more authority on the matter, whether you believe he is the Messiah; literally God; or both.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus was born as a Jew under the law, with Jewish parents, in a Jewish community, circumcised according to the law and performed all the aspects of the law as directed in the OT.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Probably one of the first things Jesus learned about the faith of his Jewish parents was the famous Shema at Deut. 6:4-6, and Jesus would well have heard this famous expression day in day out.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus simply did not sin, therefore his obedience to the Shema was perfect indeed, and is the starting point for a correct understanding of the identity of Jehovah God. Thus, a true identification of the 'Jehovah' at the Shema is demonstrated through whom Jesus spent his life and ministry in perfect, heartfelt obedience to.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So how did Jesus understand the Shema?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He understood it as referring to only one in heaven who was worthy to receive our heartfelt worship and obedience. All others deity’s, gods and humans where excluded. Jesus agreed with the Scribes' response ‘He is One, and there is no other than He', and Jesus discerned that 'he had answered intelligently'. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The use of the singular personal pronouns 'he' and 'him' shows Jesus agreed that this 'Jehovah' was a single entity, Trinitarians also believe this, and so the purpose of this post is to let Jesus identify 'who' the 'he' is in the Shema.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]How did he demonstrate perfect obedience to it? And who therefore did he demonstrate the Shema was referring to alone?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Luke 22:42) saying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Mark 14:36) And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgement that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I only chose these verses for spaces sake, really I should have pasted Matthew to Revelation for an indepth understanding of Jesus [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]service and obedience to the Father.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These verses are explicit in the message they convey, there is no confusion here. It is clear that Jesus came to do the will of another and not his own. That means that Jesus thought that the Shema was indeed referring to the Father alone. Jesus even prayed to the Father:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Matthew 6:9) “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If we are to believe the Trinitarian post-apostolic shambles of human engineered doctrine, then while conversing with the Scribe, Jesus missed a fantastic opportunity to explain to the scribe the meaning of the Shema. Right there should be an explanation of the Trinity! It's not! Why not?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Or are we to believe that Jesus secretly hid his 'true' understanding of the Shema? That would have been extremely dishonest and made him a liar.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So rather than assuming Unitarian belief, it is infact unarguably intrinsic to the scriptures. Why? Because Jesus Christ himself identifies who he truly believes the Shema is referring to, he knows it's the Father alone, and as true Christian men and women we should all take heed of our Lords clear demonstrations of truth. If you believe no one else, believe him!

Peace...
[/FONT]
 

Ratiocination

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Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.​
Indeed! So according to Jesus obedience to the Shema as demonstrated by our Lord. We should honour Jesus because we honour 'Jehovah' (The one Jesus identified as the Father in the Shema) if we don't, we cannot truly honour the Father... Simples!
 
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Ratiocination

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] This is about the grounding in the scriptures that Unitarians have over the trinitarians. It's about the overwhelming references to Jesus obedience and service to the one whom he identified as the Father alone in the Shema through his actions and demonstrations of faith while on earth. He came to teach us how to perfectly fulfil the Shema, and that he did.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So are we simply assuming Unitarianism or is it a natural understanding of the text? Nothing is of higher worth than the demonstration Jesus gave us of whom he thought was God alone, and that one was indeed the father. You see, Unitarian thinking and understanding is deeply rooted in the overall theme of the NT. The same just cannot be said about Trinitarian thinking and understanding, it simply cannot![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus once said regarding his return with power and great glory that '[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father'. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't tell us because he really didn't know! [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]'Proof' texting has no authority in the scriptures, simply finding a text and injecting a meaning extrinsic to the Bible is not good truth seeking! We have here the entire NT which paints Jesus as an obedient and loving son of the Father. Proof texting is fairly easy to spot because it leaves the 'proofer' injecting explanations to the text, and examples are all over these boards.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](1 Corinthians 4:6) Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and A·pol′los for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Keywords:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Extract - Inject [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Intrinsic - Extrinsic[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Which of these words describes your theology?[/FONT]
 
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BukiRob

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Apologies... I hate long OP's I've tried to condense it as much as possible...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Shema
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Deuteronomy 6:4-6) “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Mark 12:28-34) Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you well said in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other than He’; 33 and this loving him with one’s whole heart and with one’s whole understanding and with one’s whole strength and this loving one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But nobody had the courage anymore to question him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It has been said that Unitarian beliefs are simply assumed rather than gleaned from an accurate understanding of the scriptures. This is obviously a highly provocative accusation as many know that the Trinity doctrine can only be 'explained' using terminology and demonstrations found nowhere in the bible whatsoever, they are infact all external from God's written word.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus' own testimony and demonstration on the matter should be of the utmost importance to those that bear his name as Christians. Infact no one has more authority on the matter, whether you believe he is the Messiah; literally God; or both.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus was born as a Jew under the law, with Jewish parents, in a Jewish community, circumcised according to the law and performed all the aspects of the law as directed in the OT.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Probably one of the first things Jesus learned about the faith of his Jewish parents was the famous Shema at Deut. 6:4-6, and Jesus would well have heard this famous expression day in day out.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus simply did not sin, therefore his obedience to the Shema was perfect indeed, and is the starting point for a correct understanding of the identity of Jehovah God. Thus, a true identification of the 'Jehovah' at the Shema is demonstrated through whom Jesus spent his life and ministry in perfect, heartfelt obedience to.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So how did Jesus understand the Shema?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He understood it as referring to only one in heaven who was worthy to receive our heartfelt worship and obedience. All others deity’s, gods and humans where excluded. Jesus agreed with the Scribes' response ‘He is One, and there is no other than He', and Jesus discerned that 'he had answered intelligently'. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The use of the singular personal pronouns 'he' and 'him' shows Jesus agreed that this 'Jehovah' was a single entity, Trinitarians also believe this, and so the purpose of this post is to let Jesus identify 'who' the 'he' is in the Shema.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]How did he demonstrate perfect obedience to it? And who therefore did he demonstrate the Shema was referring to alone?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Luke 22:42) saying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Mark 14:36) And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgement that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I only chose these verses for spaces sake, really I should have pasted Matthew to Revelation for an indepth understanding of Jesus [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]service and obedience to the Father.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These verses are explicit in the message they convey, there is no confusion here. It is clear that Jesus came to do the will of another and not his own. That means that Jesus thought that the Shema was indeed referring to the Father alone. Jesus even prayed to the Father:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Matthew 6:9) “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If we are to believe the Trinitarian post-apostolic shambles of human engineered doctrine, then while conversing with the Scribe, Jesus missed a fantastic opportunity to explain to the scribe the meaning of the Shema. Right there should be an explanation of the Trinity! It's not! Why not?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Or are we to believe that Jesus secretly hid his 'true' understanding of the Shema? That would have been extremely dishonest and made him a liar.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So rather than assuming Unitarian belief, it is infact unarguably intrinsic to the scriptures. Why? Because Jesus Christ himself identifies who he truly believes the Shema is referring to, he knows it's the Father alone, and as true Christian men and women we should all take heed of our Lords clear demonstrations of truth. If you believe no one else, believe him!

Peace...
[/FONT]

Deuteronomy 19:15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

This is the standard by which a matter is established.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad

The word Echad means unity(one) Yachid is 1

to deny the divinity of the Ruach HaKodesh. Is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh)

You have the Father, the Word and the Ruach, HaKodesh those 3 bear witness and their witness is true. The Word became flesh, and the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh bore witness to him and the matter is established.

Yeshua declared that if you have seen Yeshua you have seen the Father for the Father and he are ONE (echad.) He abides in the Father and the Father abides in him.

John 14: 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Yeshua and Elohim are echad.
 
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BukiRob

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] This is about the grounding in the scriptures that Unitarians have over the trinitarians. It's about the overwhelming references to Jesus obedience and service to the one whom he identified as the Father alone in the Shema through his actions and demonstrations of faith while on earth. He came to teach us how to perfectly fulfil the Shema, and that he did.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So are we simply assuming Unitarianism or is it a natural understanding of the text? Nothing is of higher worth than the demonstration Jesus gave us of whom he thought was God alone, and that one was indeed the father. You see, Unitarian thinking and understanding is deeply rooted in the overall theme of the NT. The same just cannot be said about Trinitarian thinking and understanding, it simply cannot![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus once said regarding his return with power and great glory that '[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father'. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't tell us because he really didn't know! [/FONT]

This is a Jewish Idiom that Gentiles have completely misinterpreted. Any first century Jew would have IMMEDIATELY understood what Yeshua was saying.

First and foremost context is CRITICAL in having a full understanding of what Messiah is saying. This expression is the 36th vs of Matthew 24. In vs 3 He is asked

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The next 21 verses are Yeshua answering this very question. Earlier I said this is a wrongfully understood idiom. 2 silver trumpets are blown by 2 priests at the first appearance of the new moon. *Rosh Chodesh was declared only after two witnesses came to the Sanhedrin and testified that they had seen the new moon (a little piece of the moon beginning to show) during the previous night.

Since the Jewish calendar is a LUNAR calendar it goes by the lunar cycle which is ~ 29.5 days so no one knew when the new month would start and in Jewish vernacular is was referred to as the day and hour which no one knew.

The mainstream uses of this scripture you cite is in gross error. You MUST, MUST, MUST read scripture with a Hebrew understanding or you miss vast amounts of scriptural understanding, misinterpret and get off in to doctrines that are false in nature.

Like, knowing the difference between echad an Yachid....




*-http://www.beingjewish.com/yomtov/chodesh/newmoon.html
 
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bushinoki

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Ratiocination, reread the Gospel of John, Ch. 1, vv 1-3 and ask yourself this logical question- How did Jesus create Himself?

And to make sure that we're clear on the fact that we're talking about Jesus in those verses, here's verse 14 for you-

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father."
 
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Question for you,
Exodus 6:2-3 says that God appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty. But the NT says that no man has seen the Father. So who did they see who was God Almighty who was not the Father?

What you're doing is assuming Unitarianism and forcing it onto the text. Let's talk about the JW practice of twisting the Scriptures now shall we?
 
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BukiRob

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Ratiocination, reread the Gospel of John, Ch. 1, vv 1-3 and ask yourself this logical question- How did Jesus create Himself?

And to make sure that we're clear on the fact that we're talking about Jesus in those verses, here's verse 14 for you-

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father."

To whom are you speaking?
 
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ChetSinger

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Question for you,
Exodus 6:2-3 says that God appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty. But the NT says that no man has seen the Father. So who did they see who was God Almighty who was not the Father?...
Amen. And the elders of Israel saw him in Exodus 24 when they ate and drank with him. He had feet. The text calls notice to the fact that God didn't strike out against the elders when they saw him.

He was the visible YHWH; the manifestation of YHWH on earth. Yet YHWH reigned in heaven. Could he be both?

Yes he could, and that wasn't a dilemma in Israel in Jesus' time because the doctrine callec Two Powers in Heaven was widespread and orthodox in Judaism then.

The rabbis declared it heretical in the 2nd century CE, after Christianity linked that teaching to Jesus of Nazareth ("and the Word became flesh and lived among us").
 
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Amen. And the elders of Israel saw him in Exodus 24 when they ate and drank with him. He had feet. The text calls notice to the fact that God didn't strike out against the elders when they saw him.

He was the visible YHWH; the manifestation of YHWH on earth. Yet YHWH reigned in heaven. Could he be both?

Yes he could, and that wasn't a dilemma in Israel in Jesus' time because the doctrine callec Two Powers in Heaven was widespread and orthodox in Judaism then.

The rabbis declared it heretical in the 2nd century CE, after Christianity linked that teaching to Jesus of Nazareth ("and the Word became flesh and lived among us").


Sorry but I'm not sure you and I agree. I'm fully Trinitarian...
 
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ChetSinger

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Sorry but I'm not sure you and I agree. I'm fully Trinitarian...
As am I: I fully agree with the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I wanted to point out that the idea of a Godhead was already considered orthodox among the Jews of Jesus' time.
 
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Ratiocination

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi thanks for the response, I thought this thread was dying a premature death...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Bukirob said:
Deuteronomy 19:15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

This is the standard by which a matter is established.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad

[The word Echad means unity(one) Yachid is 1] SEE END...

to deny the divinity of the Ruach HaKodesh. Is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh)

You have the Father, the Word and the Ruach, HaKodesh those 3 bear witness and their witness is true. The Word became flesh, and the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh bore witness to him and the matter is established.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ok, the point of the OP was to show that the actions and demonstrations of our Lord are paramount in a Unitarians thinking. Do you agree that Jesus came to earth to demonstrate and prove his perfect obedience to God?...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As regards the three witnesses... I completely agree! You must have a point though otherwise you wouldn't have posted...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Bukirob said:
Yeshua declared that if you have seen Yeshua you have seen the Father for the Father and he are ONE (echad.) He abides in the Father and the Father abides in him.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The 'one' here is not specific! 'One' what?

Bukirob said:
John 14: 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Yeshua and Elohim are echad.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You're doing well here to avoid explanations, gotta admire that... The portion you highlight in bold means what exactly?[/FONT]
Bukirob said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This is a Jewish Idiom that Gentiles have completely misinterpreted. Any first century Jew would have IMMEDIATELY understood what Yeshua was saying.

First and foremost context is CRITICAL in having a full understanding of what Messiah is saying. This expression is the 36th vs of Matthew 24. In vs 3 He is asked

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The next 21 verses are Yeshua answering this very question.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here we have three questions, the first is time related, the next two are event related, and Jesus never answered WHEN these events would take place, he just gave the rough order of those events. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You seem to have conflated two things here, events and timing! Could you explain further? Otherwise it's simple, he really didn't know the day or the hour![/FONT]
Bukirob said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Earlier I said this is a wrongfully understood idiom. 2 silver trumpets are blown by 2 priests at the first appearance of the new moon. *Rosh Chodesh was declared only after two witnesses came to the Sanhedrin and testified that they had seen the new moon (a little piece of the moon beginning to show) during the previous night.

Since the Jewish calendar is a LUNAR calendar it goes by the lunar cycle which is ~ 29.5 days so no one knew when the new month would start and in Jewish vernacular is was referred to as the day and hour which no one knew.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I've never heard that before! [/FONT]And it doesnt seem to mention it in your Jewish link!
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Anyway, Jehovah's Witnesses today use the Jewish lunar calender for marking the annual Lord's evening meal on Nisan 14, this happens every year on Nisan 14 (around Easter), we know when that day will fall years in advance. The moon is as predictable as the earth orbiting the sun. Are you saying the Jews were unaware of this preciseness? If so can you show me some sources which prove their ignorance?

[/FONT]
Bukirob said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The mainstream uses of this scripture you cite is in gross error. You MUST, MUST, MUST read scripture with a Hebrew understanding or you miss vast amounts of scriptural understanding, misinterpret and get off in to doctrines that are false in nature.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Or we could just explain it the way you have! Oh wait, you haven't yet![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here we have the entire NT explaining the obedience and service of Jesus to the father, the one whom he recognized the shema to be referring to, and that's a big portion of the the bible. So no, no way is this misinterpreted, or leading to a doctrine that's false because we both agree on the obedience and service of Jesus don't we?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Bukirob said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Like, knowing the difference between echad an Yachid....
Bukirob said:
The word Echad means unity(one) Yachid is 1
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Maybe you could show us all what Echad/Yachid means in Strong's Concordance! Or have you just deliberately tried to force Echad into a small box because it suits your theology?
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again there's no better explanation for the meaning of Echad than our Lord's clear understanding of the word, and he demonstrated that well.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Summary[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The point of the OP was a little misunderstood I think. I didn't want this to become a Trinity debate per se, I was interested to know your starting point with regard to that theology. Trinity debates have been done thousands of times on here and across the web.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But thanks, the replies so far it is becoming clearer, it seriously confirms what we've known for a long time, you start your explanations with a few verses that can have a variety of different meanings (Like Echad) but insist on just the one for the sake of your theology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]That's why I thought i'd point out Jesus ENTIRE life course of service and obedience because it's actually something we all agree on. Again it's about rooting one's belief, and the best way to do that is through the action and demonstrations of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
 
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Ratiocination

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Bushinoki said:
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ratiocination, reread the Gospel of John, Ch. 1, vv 1-3 and ask yourself this logical question- How did Jesus create Himself?

And to make sure that we're clear on the fact that we're talking about Jesus in those verses, here's verse 14 for you-

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father."
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He didn't, logical enough for you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And did you read the OP?
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Ratiocination

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Question for you,
Exodus 6:2-3 says that God appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty. But the NT says that no man has seen the Father. So who did they see who was God Almighty who was not the Father?

What you're doing is assuming Unitarianism and forcing it onto the text. Let's talk about the JW practice of twisting the Scriptures now shall we?

Appeared how?

(Exodus 33:17) And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “This thing, too, of which you have spoken, I shall do, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.” 18 At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” 19 But he said: “I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.” 20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

Context!!!

Oh and did you read the OP?
 
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BukiRob

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi thanks for the response, I thought this thread was dying a premature death...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ok, the point of the OP was to show that the actions and demonstrations of our Lord are paramount in a Unitarians thinking. Do you agree that Jesus came to earth to demonstrate and prove his perfect obedience to God?...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As regards the three witnesses... I completely agree! You must have a point though otherwise you wouldn't have posted...[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The 'one' here is not specific! 'One' what?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You're doing well here to avoid explanations, gotta admire that... The portion you highlight in bold means what exactly?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here we have three questions, the first is time related, the next two are event related, and Jesus never answered WHEN these events would take place, he just gave the rough order of those events. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You seem to have conflated two things here, events and timing! Could you explain further? Otherwise it's simple, he really didn't know the day or the hour![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I've never heard that before! [/FONT]And it doesnt seem to mention it in your Jewish link!
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Anyway, Jehovah's Witnesses today use the Jewish lunar calender for marking the annual Lord's evening meal on Nisan 14, this happens every year on Nisan 14 (around Easter), we know when that day will fall years in advance. The moon is as predictable as the earth orbiting the sun. Are you saying the Jews were unaware of this preciseness? If so can you show me some sources which prove their ignorance?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Or we could just explain it the way you have! Oh wait, you haven't yet![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here we have the entire NT explaining the obedience and service of Jesus to the father, the one whom he recognized the shema to be referring to, and that's a big portion of the the bible. So no, no way is this misinterpreted, or leading to a doctrine that's false because we both agree on the obedience and service of Jesus don't we?[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Maybe you could show us all what Echad/Yachid means in Strong's Concordance! Or have you just deliberately tried to force Echad into a small box because it suits your theology?
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again there's no better explanation for the meaning of Echad than our Lord's clear understanding of the word, and he demonstrated that well.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Summary[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The point of the OP was a little misunderstood I think. I didn't want this to become a Trinity debate per se, I was interested to know your starting point with regard to that theology. Trinity debates have been done thousands of times on here and across the web.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But thanks, the replies so far it is becoming clearer, it seriously confirms what we've known for a long time, you start your explanations with a few verses that can have a variety of different meanings (Like Echad) but insist on just the one for the sake of your theology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]That's why I thought i'd point out Jesus ENTIRE life course of service and obedience because it's actually something we all agree on. Again it's about rooting one's belief, and the best way to do that is through the action and demonstrations of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


Unless you are keeping the feast days we are not in agreement. The highlighted bold text in John is Yeshua explaining exactly what shema yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad.

You want to present Yeshua as not being divine when he declares that he is the Alpha and Omega. He received worship while in the flesh here on earth.

Any doctrine the tries to reduce Yeshua as anything other than part of the godhead is in error and is a complete misunderstanding of what Echad means. I gave you a clear answer that you apparently ignored.

Echad is also used in Genesis 3 when talking about a man leaving his mother and his father to cleave to his wife and they become one (echad) flesh. That is the jewish word used.

Clearly the husband and wife remain 2 individuals yet united in purpose (echad)
 
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Appeared how?

(Exodus 33:17) And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “This thing, too, of which you have spoken, I shall do, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.” 18 At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” 19 But he said: “I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.” 20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

Context!!!

Oh and did you read the OP?

I'm sorry but you have very little idea of what context means if you think that 27 chapters and the two sentences later you wish to rip out refutes in any way the theophanies of the Old Testament that soundly refute Unitarianism.
 
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