SolomonVII
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I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?
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SolomonVII
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steve_bakr
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I'm only getting the same argument that Islam as a religion is to be judged on the basis of geopolitics, which I have refuted.
The issue of dhimmitude was that, practiced as originally intended, it was in advance of its time in terms of its toleration of religious minorities and the protection of their rights to self-governance and the practice of their own religion.
Whether the Copts today are protected under the original system of dhimmitude is another matter. If they are not free to practice their own religion in peace, then the answer would be no.
As I said, I am talking about the teachings of Islam as a religion based on an accurate exegesis of the Quran and secondarily the Sunna. That is the same approach I would take if we were talking about the teachings of any other religion. The study of a religion concerns what its beliefs and teachings are based on its scriptures and traditions.
I am not going to get baited into a defense against personal comments. I'd be happy to address issues concerning Islam as a religion--i.e. its principles and what its teachings are.
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PaladinValer
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In real, authentic, orthodox Christianity, we believe we are our brother's keeper.
Typical behavior when wrong.
I suggests some English lessons, because your opinions of my posts are unfounded.
I suggest a course in logic as well.
I'm not the subject. Valer's Law #2 again.
Very typical within unorthodoxy...
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steve_bakr
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Hello. The answer would be, no, Islam does not meet the definition of paganism, which was originally applied to the Greeks and the Romans, and refers to a non-Abrahamic religion.
Islam professes a belief in One God, specifically the God of Abraham. It accepts the Prophets of Israel, and believes they called the people to repent and worship the God of the Jewish Shema: "Hear, O Israel, thy Lord is but One God."
Islam's version of the Shema is: "La ilaha illa 'llah," which means: "There is no deity worthy of worship if it be not God." The Name for the One God in Arabic is, of course, "Allah."
The words "Islam" and "Muslim" are variations of the same root--"slm"--which is a Semitic relative of the Hebrew word: "Shalom." The most simple definition of Islam is: submission to the God of Abraham.
A Muslim is someone who submits to the God of Abraham, believes in angels, the resurrection, and a Day of Judgment. He/she believes in daily prayer, good deeds, and helping the poor.
The Muslim also believes in living in peace because the Arabic root--"slm"--also produces: "salaam," which means "peace" and is used in the greeting: "As-Salaamu alaykum" ("Peace be unto you").
It is believed that Allah has written on his throne: "My Mercy precedes my wrath." Every Sura of the Quran but one begins with: "Bismi llahi Rahman ir-Rahim," which means, "In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful."
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SolomonVII
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What does that have to do with me?
I was not the one that put quotation marks around the word you as if that meant anything at all.
I haven't stated my opinions of your post, because that would be to violate house rules.
non sequitur.
It is deeply dishonest to sing the praises of dhimmitude, when the truth was that it is not something that he would advocate either.
I wasn't making an argument. I was making a comment of why people in general would not understand what I have been saying.
True to form.
Very typical response.
Your reputation precedes you.
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SolomonVII
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.
On the contrary, you made the point that Islam is a whole system approach with no division between the personal and public spheres. Geopolitcs is very much on the table.
Deeply dishonest of you to laud something that is deeply hurtful to Christians today, when you know that is is something quite reprehensible
We both judge Islam, you according to practices that have never been, or may have been way back in some mythic golden age; myself as it is being practiced today.
I am talking about Islam as it is believed in today by people who are actually practicing the religion, not as a personal faith, but as a whole system that you have already agree Islam actually is.
You state as fact that there is no division between the personal and the public in Islam, and then go on as if what is happening in the religion right now today does not matter.
You already open the door by suggesting that it was those who disagree with you who are not showing proper humility and are being judgmental.
It is your denomination that committed the crime against humanity that you have not brought up three times.
That has nothing to do with me. Feel ashamed all you want. Don't expect other Christians to feel the guilt.
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steve_bakr
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I still get the impression that you are not picking up on much of what I have written, especially regarding dhimmitude and geopolitics.
I've explained the point about dhimmitude several times; that it was far and away ahead of our religion at the height of Islamic civilization; and that I do not say that all of its characteristics are necessarily appropriate for today, although it still retains some good characteristics, especially the freedom of self-governance and the unhindered practice of religion; finally, I cannot say that today's Copts are in fact under a true system of dhimmitude at all.
While Islam has public aspects, I have already stated that the radical groups you mention do not practice Islam at all, in terms of following an accurate exegesis of the Quran and secondarily the Sunna.
If a so-called Christian terrorist group appropriated territory and called itself a Christian nation, it would be quite incorrect to say that this group was, by their "practice," redefining the teachings of Christianity; yet that is what you are claiming about Islam.
A case in point could be the genocide of indigenous peoples under the guise of certain nations acting under the theory that they were ordained by God to carry out such acts in the name of Christianity. I would argue that these Christian peoples were not redefining Christianity by their actions but in fact these actions were not Christian at all.
Your argument that Islam is somehow a special case that justifies the application of a double standard is gratuitously opportunistic, and I would not call that sound reasoning at all.
BTW, I said that humility is a necessary quality for all of us Christians to have when we examine other religions, and this applies to myself as much as anyone else.
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SolomonVII
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I have no idea why you are getting that impression.
Why does it matter how advanced was relative to sixth century Catholic Europe, which had a legal system that put cows on trial?
It is immaterial, and is of the field of academia only, that has nothing to do with what is happening now.
And I have already mentioned that you are not the pope in a position to make decrees on what the true Islam is or not. You laud Islam as it is not being practiced, and has likely never been practiced, much like communists laud a communism that has never been.
If you turn your attention to what is actually happening in Islam today, according to the exegesis of practitioners, and not people who you agree with, you would begin to actually understand the other point of view being put forth.
According to you, the way that Islam being practiced today is not really Islam. Nevertheless, you are agreeing that Islam as it is being practiced today by ISLAMISTS is anti-Islamic, anti-God and likely even demonic.
That is close to my position.
The question of 'true' Islam as it is not being practiced does not really interest me. If there is a better Islam that the one that is coming to the fore now, it is a matter for Muslims themselves to reform current practices to amend to what they believe is the true Islam.
Until now, the true Islam that you laud has had very little bearing on the kind of Islam that is emerging as dominant.
I think it is fair for non-Muslims to focus only on what is, and let Muslims themselves focus on the possibility of what might me.
I wish them well, but it is not my place to tell them what the true religion is. In my mind the truth claims of Islam are as false as the claims that Mormons make.
That does not make me hateful toward that a better vision for Islam or Mormonism for that matter. It simply makes me and orthodox Christian.
Christianity too is what Christianity does. Crusading Christianity for five centuries or more in fact WAS exactly that. Without an active reform, it would be that way still.
The Albigensian Crusade for example can be accurately described as a Christian terrorist group led by the pope no less that appropriated a territory and called itself the Christian nation of France. If it is your contention that the pope is an apostate on that account, you have not yet been clear on that.
That is according to your denomination though, and not a church that has reformed itself of that kind of theology.
I have already pointed that out, which is proof that you are not even reading my responses to you.
These were Catholics following their pope. The SDA argues that Catholicism is the Great Apostacy too.
You are saying the same.
You have not been reading my posts at all.
There is no double standard here. I have already given my reasons why I don't fully agree with you and the SDA that the RCC ought to be considered the Great Apostacy, the harlot of the Seven Hills, if you will.
Humility precludes an attitude that those arguing with you just don't have all the facts on hand, or they wouldn't be arguing in the first place. It precludes an attitude which thinks that those who disagree with you have contempt for Muslims.
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SolomonVII
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It is against house rules to say who isn't a Christian. Obama is a Christian because he says he is.
I extend the same courtesy to Islamists. They are Muslims because they say they are.
Theirs is a pagan religion.
I extend the same courtesy to Islamists. They are Muslims because they say they are.
Theirs is a pagan religion.
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steve_bakr
Christian
As a lifetime student of religion, I have already explained to you that geopolitics, while important enough, is not a factor as to the principles of the study of religion.
The State of Israel, for example, is not relevant to the study of Judaism because it is a matter for geopolitics, which is an entirely different field.
I don't think you really know how the majority of Muslims practice their Islam, by the way.
I am working on an Arabic project, and I really don't have time to exchange innuendos with you. It is not something that I find fulfilling.
If you have any academic support for your opinion, that is what would be appropriate for you to provide.
God bless you.
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SolomonVII
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When the system is inherently political, it is.
I reject that claim, since geopolitics is at the heart of the very reason for Islam in the first place.
Just because it is not central to the study of Christianity, does not mean that Christianity and Islam fit neatly into that same convenient box labeled 'religon'.
The State of Israel is an overtly secular state, not a theocracy. This was not always true, and the Bible demonstrates how crucial geopolitics once were to the theocracies called ancient Israel and most especially Judah.
It is not merely history, but a Sacred History.
I don't need to. I only need to know what type of Islam is on the ascendancy in the world today to base my claim that Islamist religion is a pagan one.
Is that what you were doing up until this point? I certainly wasn't making disparaging remarks about you.
Which particular opinion would you like me to provide support for?
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By the same logic, could not Judaism be considered a pagan religion since they do not believe in Jesus?
Gal 1:
13 for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God and wasting it,
14 and I was advancing in Judaism above many equals in age in mine own race, being more abundantly zealous of my fathers' deliverances,
2 Corin 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them/Judaism! and be being separated! is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye
.
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SolomonVII
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I am quite sure that many here do consider the God of Satan to be the devil.
By the logic I used here though, it could not be considered a pagan religion, because religious motives are not given by Jews to perpetrate evil and oppression against others on the outside of the religion.
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steve_bakr
Christian
The opinion that geopolitics is a principle which applies to the study of religious teachings and beliefs. But you have your point of view and you expressed it.
I really felt, however, that you were making pejorative comments about myself and my Church tradition.
At any rate, there is a serious illiteracy problem in Christianity with respect to Islam. I saw this thread as an opportunity to provide information that may contribute to a better understanding of Islam among Christians. I was factual in my posts, I cited many scholars, and provided the titles of several books as suggested reading.
But your responses have caused me to wonder whether that is being accomplished. Ultimately, the dissemination of information is more important to me than the outcome of any particular "debate."
But if my time here is of no benefit, then I need to reallocate more of that time to my current project in Arabic, in which there is a benefit.
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SolomonVII
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I'll look into a little more if you want. I don't think it would be that hard to find things.
You are the one that opened your church tradition up to that.
Your statement was that Islamists are not really true Islam, just like Crusading Christians were not acting according to the principles of Christianity.
Given that the crusading Christians were discharging violence for a half a millenium or more, and that pope's and bishops and the church from peasants crusades to childrens crusades to kings like Richard the Lion hearted were all involved in that violence, if this does not go to the heart of what it meant to be a Catholic, and to the heart of what the Catholic Church taught from the office of pope no less; if this does not go to the heart of Catholic teaching, then nothing does.
I find it amusing that any Catholic would have set himself up so badly, in General Theology no less, to expect the Christians outside of your denomination would actually come to the defense of what the Catholics did to Jews in Jerusalem. Reformed Christians have been calling this the great apostasy for years!
And you, as a Catholic, in effect agreed!
Where did you ever get the idea that I would see what emanated from the office of pope as something that I would identify with as a Christian, and defend??
It was you making the argument of the Great Apostasy, and not me!
You used my posts as a sounding board to put out a lot of information.
What you did not do is humble yourself to actually reading my posts and actually trying to understand what I was saying.
There is not much that you posted that I did not already know.
Obviously. You became so busy disseminating your information that you did not even bother responding to the content of my posts.
You were only interested in 'schooling' us illiterates.
Don't think that I didn't notice.
In terms of debate, I was at an advantage. I was actually reading what you were writing.
Your interest was disseminating information to the uninformed, and what some illiterate poster had to say was apparently beneath actually taking serious enough to read with any care.
We are all in love with our own voices here. To actually listen to each other is a big bother.
Have fun with your Arabic studies.
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Deut. 10:17 "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome...."
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I would say, in addition to this, that it must always be the case that Islam be addressed for what it is from all angles - both academic and grassroots. Whenever people (as some have in this thread) promote the idiocy that Islam practiced by radical terrorists are doing true Islam, they are actually going on the basis of extremes as a if they are a norm - no different than saying that all gang members who happen to be Black or Hispanic "prove" that Blacks and Hispanics today are somehow prone to Gang Activity. It's poor logic - and
We have to address the issue of what true Islam is about when it comes to those who practice it, as well as those practicing it with differing interpretations of the Quran - and where Muslims have already called out the extreme activities in Islam as being far from what the Quran advocates, we need to be honest in acknowledging both the Reforms and what they actually said - unfortunately, it has already been the case a couple of times where you experienced people speaking in ignorance about what Islam was about because of them being focused on the actions of extreme groups and ignoring what other Muslims have already said on the matter....
But that happens when there is selective logic and argumentation. If people wanted to deal with the kind of Islam that is rising as dominant, it'd be acknowledged where that Islam was never about supporting terrorism or not seeking to serve God - and when non Muslims focus on that and address what Muslims have said, we honor those within the Muslim culture in the same way we honor those within Judaism.
I hope we can all learn to be more charitable toward Muslims rather than assuming that they are automatically divorced or disconnected from anything pertaining to either Christianity or the Abrahamic Faith tradition - for they may have less revelation an d information...but that does not mean that they are automaticlally divorced from Christ. Moreover, it is not a good thing to claim we wish to deal with Islam as it is (in certain camps) and yet ignoring where the extremes we've had in the world of Christianity do not define us - be it with the ways the Protestants have acted post Reformation (and Reformation) era or the Catholics in the Crusades and many other times. As noted before elsewhere:
G
I posted this link in another thread, but I think a discussion thread should be about it. I'm talking about the unspoken 800 pound gorilla:
Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How do we as Christians combat and prevent these extremists from popping up?
They aren't quite as common as Muslim extremists... or... are they just as common, but never reported as much?In Africa there is "The Lord's Resistance Army" which claims to be Christian with about the same amount of credibility that one would give to Bin Ladin's claim to be a religious Muslim.I created a christian terrorists thread to address these isssues in christianity and it was quickly dismissed by everyone with the logic of:
"Well, they aren't really christian because they aren't following christ's teachings"
The same argument could be made with ISIS, but nobody bothers do they? Thats why I tossed the "We got christian terrorists. ya know that right?" grenade into the discussion.
Why do christians ignore our own skeletons in the closet? The other guys use these idiots to fuel their propaganda to promote more persecution against us. We need to clean up our own houses.Gxg (G²);66160120 said:Very real points.
It wasn't that long ago when we not only had Jim Crow rampant - but men with burning crosses and claiming Christ doing mob killings in the name of Christ. In regards to the very real and present theological stances of the KKK and where they and other whites did lynchings after church services, it was tied deeply to not seeing blacks as equal to whites and believing God divinely established the system of white supremacy. Lynch advocates were quite often religious, specifically Christian. Moreover, their brand of faith placed whites at the top of a racial hierarchy with blacks at the bottom.
More has been discussed on the issue in the excellent work entitled The Color of Christ: The Son of God and the Saga of Race in America - Edward J. Blum, Paul Harvey - Google Books
The Color of Christ and the Politics of Race in Twentieth-Century America - YouTube.
The religious imagery and theology backing the KKK was not a small issue (more discussed in discussed here or here in Sunday Lynchings: The Church’s Role in Our Nation’s Legacy of Racism : Convergence Church Oakland: A church seeking and serving the greater area of Oakland, CA and Practicing What They Preach? Lynching and Religion in the American South, 1890 – 1929 in The Color of Christ: The Son of God & the Saga of Race in America - Edward J. Blum, Paul Harvey - Google Books and Book Review: The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone | The Jesus Question other places). It is highly unfortunate to witness how between 1919 and 1939, according to Robert Moats Miller, white people in the United States “hung, shot, burned, gouged, flogged, drowned, impaled, dismembered, garroted, and blowtorched” to to death more than 500 black people in lynchings (from the The Protestant Churches and Lynching, 1919-1939, The Journal of Negro History, pp. 118-131)
And yet we do not assume that all Christians advocating such attrocities represented Christians all over the world of course. Likewise, the same goes with Muslims and the evils done by those in the radical camps.
The violence within the texts of the Quran and Bible was discussed more in-depth here and here in Why do Muslims fear Christians and Christians fear Muslims? . For many things happened in the Scriptures which others have noted to be questionable - one of them being what happened when it came to the captive Midianite virgins, as God apparently permitted the Israelites to take them as wives or servants (even though both wives and servants had particular rights under Mosaic law, including prohibitions against mistreatment..Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16, Dt 21:10-14).....and some have argued that God was right to make these allowances for Israel for a time, just as a parent is right to make certain allowances for children until it’s time for them to grow up. ....although others have also said the same thing of the Quran when it comes to seeing the timeframe of when things were written and what exactly was meant when Mohommad wrote certain things - with it being accepted/allowed for a time.
For more:
There's also The “Third Wayâ€: Seeing God’s Beauty in the Depth of Scripture’s Violent Portraits of God – ReKnew
Distinguished Lecture - Dr. Philip Jenkins - YouTube
It is dishonorable whenever others make sweeping claims without even knowing others and then get mad if others do the same to them.....as there are NUMEROUS groups of Muslims who have never come close to harming believers - be it those who are Jewish or those who are Gentiles. There has been extensive history where Muslims (be it Arabic or Non-Arabic) have interacted well with Arabic Christians, Jewish believers in Christ and Gentile Christians without any issue - both going to places of prayer and Holy areas ...
And as said before, demonizing entire groups of people because of where many of them have been violent would be like me (as a Black man) saying that ALL Christians are "inherently violent" because of the systemic and sustained persecution/terrorism that occurred throughout the history of the South and North during Slavery, Jim Crow and the era of the KKK burning Crosses or lynchings.
With the Quran itself, as another noted wisely:
it may benefit both Muslims and Christians to recall the words of the Prophet Muhammad regarding how Christians should be treated by Muslims in the following translation of a letter he sent to the Christian monks at St. Catherines, Mount Sinai (Egypt) in 628 AD:
“This is a message from Muhammad sof of Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
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