Faith vs politics

LoAmmi

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Um.. could that be because you're not Christian?
Well, when people say "OT" they tend to mean what I have as well. So, I suppose I was assuming that when you said it.
Having said that, I don't understand why Christians would not consult the Torah rather than the OT.

Tanach, you mean. Torah is the first five books.
 
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BaconWizard

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Well, when people say "OT" they tend to mean what I have as well. So, I suppose I was assuming that when you said it.


Tanach, you mean. Torah is the first five books.

But its the shared content of both, isn't it?

Mind you, now you mention it.. why not EVERYTHING that predates 0AD?
 
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The OT is self-contradicting and requires very careful (hint: impossible) translation from Old Hebrew and sometimes Greek.

Examples of Scripture please....

You cite "thou shalt not kill" yet it is full of killing at God's command or with his apparent blessing.

God is God, He can do what He likes with whomever. Who r we to question His intent on anything? The different nations He destroyed was due to their wickedness.....

Indeed, a more correct translation might actually be "thou shalt not murder" with murder needing to be defined apart from other types of killing such as warfare.

With the issue of abortion, it has somehow become a habit to cite the OT when the precise opposite is true.

We can ALL go and read it; it's an exercise in futility to suggest otherwise or to lay claim to any kind of superior ability to interpret it than those who still maintain the covenant of the OT, The Jews, who also maintain the laws and interpretations and applications of those commandments whereas Christians do not. This is what pre-Christian Christianity looks like: Judaism!

And in so doing are NOT against abortion. Specifically, life is said to begin at the first drawing of breath. In some cases, plus a month! That's the law of the day, and it is Biblical law.

This is FALSE, unless u can back them up w/book, chapter, verse. You can't just make blind statements without backing them up w/Scripture.

The OT itself contains advice on how to potentially induce an abortion if you suspect your pregnant wife of adultery.

Where does it say this?? Back up ur comments w/Scripture.

You say "it seems" to be against abortion all you like. It is specifically and demonstrably NOT against abortion.

Again, this is FALSE, unless u can back it up w/Scripture.
 
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BaconWizard

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Again, this is FALSE, unless u can back it up w/Scripture.

"...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:3. See also Deuteronomy 2:34 and 3:6; Joshua 10:28-40, 11:10-12, 14, 15, 20 and 21; and Judges 21:10-12.)

________

"O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" (Psalms 137:8)

______

The Lord spoke to Moses: 5:12 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 5:13 and a man has sexual relations 20 with her 21 without her husband knowing it, 22 and it is hidden that she has defiled herself, since 23 there was no witness against her, nor was she caught – 5:14 and if jealous feelings 24 come over him and he becomes suspicious 25 of his wife, when she is defiled; 26 or if jealous feelings come over him and he becomes suspicious of his wife, when she is not defiled – 5:15 then 27 the man must bring his wife to the priest, and he must bring the offering required for her, one tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he must not pour olive oil on it or put frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of suspicion, 28 a grain offering for remembering, 29 for bringing 30 iniquity to remembrance.

5:16 “‘Then the priest will bring her near and have her stand 31 before the Lord. 5:17 The priest will then take holy water 32 in a pottery jar, and take some 33 of the dust 34 that is on the floor of the tabernacle, and put it into the water. 5:18 Then the priest will have the woman stand before the Lord, uncover the woman’s head, and put the grain offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of suspicion. The priest will hold in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 35 5:19 Then the priest will put the woman under oath and say to the her, “If no other 36 man has had sexual relations with you, and if you have not gone astray and become defiled while under your husband’s authority, may you be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 37 5:20 But if you 38 have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had sexual relations with you….” 39 5:21 Then the priest will put the woman under the oath of the curse 40 and will say 41 to the her, “The Lord make you an attested curse 42 among your people, 43 if the Lord makes 44 your thigh fall away 45 and your abdomen swell; 46 5:22 and this water that causes the curse will go 47 into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh rot.” 48 Then the woman must say, “Amen, amen.” 49
5:23 “‘Then the priest will write these curses on a scroll and then scrape them off into the bitter water. 50 5:24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings a curse will enter her to produce bitterness. 5:25 The priest will take the grain offering of suspicion from the woman’s hand, wave the grain offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar. 5:26 Then the priest will take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 5:27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, the water that brings a curse will enter her to produce bitterness – her abdomen will swell, her thigh will fall away, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 5:28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she will be free of ill effects 51 and will be able to bear children.
 
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gord44

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Umm, I'd disagree with your definition of "monarchist." There is no specification of "earthly" or "non-earthly" to the definition.

That's your perogative to disagree. I just don't put God on the same level as some earthly king. They are not even remotely on the same level.

Jesus is a king, He is a monarch, and a monarch is a monarchist. If a man is a citizen of Heaven, that man is also a monarchist.

Are we in Heaven? Is earth currently Heaven? I think not.

Jesus was not by any means an anarchist--He accepted the authority of earthly kings within their own kingdom and did not advocate anarchy.

The Sermon on the Mount is anarchist in nature I find. I also don't think Jesus 'accepted' the authority of anyone except God.
 
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"...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:3. See also Deuteronomy 2:34 and 3:6; Joshua 10:28-40, 11:10-12, 14, 15, 20 and 21; and Judges 21:10-12.)


Ok, so what is ur point?
________

"O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" (Psalms 137:8)

______

The Lord spoke to Moses: 5:12 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 5:13 and a man has sexual relations 20 with her 21 without her husband knowing it, 22 and it is hidden that she has defiled herself, since 23 there was no witness against her, nor was she caught – 5:14 and if jealous feelings 24 come over him and he becomes suspicious 25 of his wife, when she is defiled; 26 or if jealous feelings come over him and he becomes suspicious of his wife, when she is not defiled – 5:15 then 27 the man must bring his wife to the priest, and he must bring the offering required for her, one tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he must not pour olive oil on it or put frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of suspicion, 28 a grain offering for remembering, 29 for bringing 30 iniquity to remembrance.

5:16 “‘Then the priest will bring her near and have her stand 31 before the Lord. 5:17 The priest will then take holy water 32 in a pottery jar, and take some 33 of the dust 34 that is on the floor of the tabernacle, and put it into the water. 5:18 Then the priest will have the woman stand before the Lord, uncover the woman’s head, and put the grain offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of suspicion. The priest will hold in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 35 5:19 Then the priest will put the woman under oath and say to the her, “If no other 36 man has had sexual relations with you, and if you have not gone astray and become defiled while under your husband’s authority, may you be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 37 5:20 But if you 38 have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had sexual relations with you….” 39 5:21 Then the priest will put the woman under the oath of the curse 40 and will say 41 to the her, “The Lord make you an attested curse 42 among your people, 43 if the Lord makes 44 your thigh fall away 45 and your abdomen swell; 46 5:22 and this water that causes the curse will go 47 into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh rot.” 48 Then the woman must say, “Amen, amen.” 49
5:23 “‘Then the priest will write these curses on a scroll and then scrape them off into the bitter water. 50 5:24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings a curse will enter her to produce bitterness. 5:25 The priest will take the grain offering of suspicion from the woman’s hand, wave the grain offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar. 5:26 Then the priest will take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 5:27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, the water that brings a curse will enter her to produce bitterness – her abdomen will swell, her thigh will fall away, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 5:28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she will be free of ill effects 51 and will be able to bear children.


Ok, so what is ur point with these Scriptures?
 
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BaconWizard

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U give a lot of verses that don't point to anything other than ur not understanding them. They point to sin not abortion on demand.

So how about some verses that actually point to infanticide.

There is no failure to understand. The verse concerning adultery or jealousy advocates mixing a drink and curse with the intent of deliberately causing a miscarriage if the child is not the husband's. Done and dusted: The OT is NOT inherently opposed to abortion. God himself will perform one if the circumstances are that the baby is illegitimate and a magic spell/potion requests it.
 
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RDKirk

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That's your perogative to disagree. I just don't put God on the same level as some earthly king. They are not even remotely on the same level.

Jesus is the king. His form of government is monarchy. He is a monarchist. If we are citizens of Heaven, we are monarchists even if we are not presently residing in our home nation.

Are we in Heaven? Is earth currently Heaven? I think not.

Your dispute is with Jesus, then.

Nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."-- Luke 17

When an embassy or consulate mission is set up in a host country, that embassy is considered the sovereign territory of the ambassador's country, not the host country. Thus, the embassy of Japan in Washington DC is actually the sovereign territory of Japan, not the US.

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, -- 2 Corinthians 5

That is why "the kingdom of God is in your midst."

The Sermon on the Mount is anarchist in nature I find.

Not at all. Jesus is describing the culture of Heaven. There has never been any nation on earth where that culture could have been found, and the Mosaic Law did not prescribe it even for Israel.

Your definition of "anarchy" appears to be as errant as your definition of "monarchist."

Full Definition of ANARCHY

1
a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2
a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>

Jesus never described any state such as that as belonging to Him.

I also don't think Jesus 'accepted' the authority of anyone except God.

Sure He did.

When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the double-drachma tax approached Peter and said, “Doesn’t your Teacher pay the double-drachma tax?”

“Yes,” he said.

When he went into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, “What do you think, Simon? Who do earthly kings collect tariffs or taxes from? From their sons or from strangers?”

“From strangers,” he said.

“Then the sons are free,” Jesus told him. “But, so we won’t offend them, go to the sea, cast in a fishhook, and take the first fish that you catch. When you open its mouth you’ll find a coin. Take it and give it to them for Me and you.”
-- Matthew 17

More important is the biblical instruction to Christians as ambassadors of Heaven:

Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. -- Romans 13

Dear friends, I urge you as strangers and temporary residents to abstain from fleshly desires that war against you. Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that in a case where they speak against you as those who do what is evil, they will, by observing your good works, glorify God on the day of visitation.

Submit to every human authority because of the Lord, whether to the Emperor as the supreme authority or to governors as those sent out by him to punish those who do what is evil and to praise those who do what is good.
--1 Peter 2

This is how it is with ambassadors in a host country. He obeys their laws while in their country. An ambassador remembers, however, that he is only a temporary resident, an "alien" and a "pilgrim and sojourner," and he never "goes native" in the host country.

An ambassador always remembers he is on a mission of limited duration, then he's going home.
 
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RDKirk

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There is no failure to understand. The verse concerning adultery or jealousy advocates mixing a drink and curse with the intent of deliberately causing a miscarriage if the child is not the husband's. Done and dusted: The OT is NOT inherently opposed to abortion. God himself will perform one if the circumstances are that the baby is illegitimate and a magic spell/potion requests it.

I don't see a miscarriage being caused there. The potion is intended to cause swelling if the woman is pregnant, not to dispel it. There is nothing it says about causing an issue of blood or anything like that--and, yes, we can see in Leviticus that they knew how to say "issue of blood" if that's what they meant to say.

A miscarriage would be unnecessary anyway, as proof of adultery would then require the woman to be divorced.
 
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gord44

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Jesus is the king. His form of government is monarchy. He is a monarchist.

i still see him as more as an anarchist mixed with some communist. Just look at what the apostles did in Acts. If it's not the best description of communism I don't know what is and these are the guys who knew Jesus best...

acts 2:44-45

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Or how about acts 4:32-35?

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God&#8217;s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles&#8217; feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

If we are citizens of Heaven, we are monarchists even if we are not presently residing in our home nation.

I don't live in a kingdom. I know we can pretend we are part of a 'kingdom' but we aren't literally there right now.

Your dispute is with Jesus, then.

Nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."-- Luke 17

Indeed. That's a very mystical passage and has a lot of truth, but it does not refer to a literal kingdom we are living in right now where we serve a literal king. Jesus is talking about a spiritual kingdom there.

Not at all. Jesus is describing the culture of Heaven. There has never been any nation on earth where that culture could have been found, and the Mosaic Law did not prescribe it even for Israel.

A common response to get out of Jesus' teachings.

"look guys. Jesus didn't mean that stuff in the Sermon on the Mount. That's way too hard. He meant that's what heaven will be like."

The teachings in the Sermon on the Mount is an ideal blueprint, a manifesto, as it were, for any truly authentic Christian community.

Augustine described it as &#8220;a perfect standard of Christian life."

Your definition of "anarchy" appears to be as errant as your definition of "monarchist."

Jesus was peaceful and his radical teaching on love and forgiveness which contrasted the state and culture, leads me, and many others to see him having anarchist ideas. He undermined the state through non-reactive, peaceful means. Jesus' teachings are at complete odds with the state, especially Rome at the time.

When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the double-drachma tax approached Peter and said, &#8220;Doesn&#8217;t your Teacher pay the double-drachma tax?&#8221;

&#8220;Yes,&#8221; he said.

When he went into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, &#8220;What do you think, Simon? Who do earthly kings collect tariffs or taxes from? From their sons or from strangers?&#8221;

&#8220;From strangers,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Then the sons are free,&#8221; Jesus told him. &#8220;But, so we won&#8217;t offend them, go to the sea, cast in a fishhook, and take the first fish that you catch. When you open its mouth you&#8217;ll find a coin. Take it and give it to them for Me and you.&#8221; [/COLOR] -- Matthew 17

I bolded the most important part. He didn't pay out of duty to the state, but to not cause offence and get into trouble.

More important is the biblical instruction to Christians.

i don't worry to much about other stuff unless it's from Jesus.

There's what Jesus taught. There's what the Bible teaches. I tried to go with what the Bible teaches many times, but my conscience leads me back always to Jesus and what he taught.

But honestly friend. We probably won't agree. It's all good. You have that ambassador idea that seems to work for you and that's great. Peace. :)
 
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BaconWizard

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I don't see a miscarriage being caused there. The potion is intended to cause swelling if the woman is pregnant, not to dispel it. There is nothing it says about causing an issue of blood or anything like that--and, yes, we can see in Leviticus that they knew how to say "issue of blood" if that's what they meant to say.

A miscarriage would be unnecessary anyway, as proof of adultery would then require the woman to be divorced.

"and make your abdomen swell and your thigh rot"

"Thigh" also translates as womb.
 
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RDKirk

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"and make your abdomen swell and your thigh rot"

"Thigh" also translates as womb.

Not to professionals.

Of the 32 places where yarek appears, it's not translated "womb" anywhere. Such as:

Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. -- Psalm 45

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. -- Song 3

How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince’s daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. -- Song 3

When they meant "womb" they used beten:

Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine. -- Exodus 13

For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me. -- Numbers 8

Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb. -- Numbers 12

Those are all explicitly contextual references to a woman's uterus, yet nowhere there is an explicitly contextual reference to a woman's uterus is yarek used. Beten is always used.

Where the context clearly means "thigh" (no man fastens a sword to a uterus, nor even to his penis), yarek is used.
 
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dazed

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I don't see a miscarriage being caused there. The potion is intended to cause swelling if the woman is pregnant, not to dispel it. There is nothing it says about causing an issue of blood or anything like that--and, yes, we can see in Leviticus that they knew how to say "issue of blood" if that's what they meant to say.

A miscarriage would be unnecessary anyway, as proof of adultery would then require the woman to be divorced.

I thought it's written somewhere that the punishment for adultery is death by stoning. If that's the case, a miscarriage is definitely unnecessary.
 
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BaconWizard

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I thought it's written somewhere that the punishment for adultery is death by stoning. If that's the case, a miscarriage is definitely unnecessary.

Not sure I've seen that anywhere. But, that would certainly deal with the unwanted pregnancy in no uncertain terms. Perhaps we should revive it.
 
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LoAmmi

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Not sure I've seen that anywhere. But, that would certainly deal with the unwanted pregnancy in no uncertain terms. Perhaps we should revive it.

Ok, per Jewish law this is how it would work. The person had to be witnessed by no less than three people committing the act, the testimonies of those three people had to be close but no match word for word, the person had to be warned that the act they were committing could carry the death penalty, and a court has to decide that they want to use the death penalty.
 
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dazed

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Ok, per Jewish law this is how it would work. The person had to be witnessed by no less than three people committing the act, the testimonies of those three people had to be close but no match word for word, the person had to be warned that the act they were committing could carry the death penalty, and a court has to decide that they want to use the death penalty.

Loophole? So it's not adultery if there is only 1-2 witnesses? I thought Jews knew the 10 commandments, and penalties, by heart.
 
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