Examining the supposed 'Pre-Trib Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible:

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

Source

Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

Aside from pulling verses violently out of context with a complete disregard for the subject and object of a passage to support their vain theories, the Rapture doctors also make fundamental Scriptural errors or false statements that are easily identified by even Sunday-school students; The Rapture doctors (those who teach Rapture theories) seemingly blindly error by saying that the Church must be 'Raptured out' because it isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 (which in reality, verse {4:1} isn't even talking about the Church at all, nor a Rapture of same, it is talking about John, "the Disciple Christ loved," the writer of the book of Revelation:

Rev 4:1 (John speaking)
1 After thisI looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (KJV)

You wont believe this! But this (by their own boast) is one of the Rapture doctor's 'strongest' and most repeated 'documentations' for the Rapture doctrine. They even state that this is the last words recorded to the Rapture 'saints'. Ok, lets pop this one on our Sunday-school students: "Who is it in the above Scripture that the voice from Heaven is calling to "come up hither"?"

Choices:

St. John, the author of the verse, or,
The entire God worshipping, Jesus Christ loving Christian end-time Church?

Answer:

The correct answer is number One (#1), St. John, the one doing the writing, the one who calls himself "I," and "Me." Any Sunday-school student who got this wrong should go directly to the back of the class! When someone writes "I," or "Me," they mean themselves - duh!
But like we stated earlier, any time a Rapturist sees a term like "up," or "rise," or "gather," or "clouds," or basically anything 'atmospheric' or 'airy,' they get all 'giddy' inside and think that it is speaking of their escape from prophecy, which is of course quite impossible. God doesn't remove us, He prepares us! Are you prepared?

They say that the Church is not mentioned
after Rev 4:1 - We say: "Oh really?"
First of all, what is the church? It is a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. Ok, the Rapture doctors state that the Church is not mentioned after {Rev 4:1}, but then our Sunday-schooler opens his/her Bible to the last chapter in the book of Revelation, the sixth verse from the end of the Bible even, to Jesus Christ's last recorded words*, and reads:

Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (KJV)

Whoops! Didn't Jesus know that the churches don't need to hear the testimony of those things in the book of Revelation because they will be 'raptured away' before they come to pass? I mean, if I though I was going to be raptured somewhere by someone, I would certainly hope that he knew that He was supposed to come to Rapture me - or else I'm in a world of trouble, aren't I!
I am being somewhat sarcastic here, but really, the Rapture doctrine is such a stretch of the imagination that one struggles to comprehend how good intelligent Christians can possibly base the welfare of their very souls upon it. Come-on Christian, wake up, You are being deceived! And don't blame God, He warned you in Scripture after Scripture...but many would rather listen to some man, some false preacher/teacher from the pulpits of the wholly corrupted and beguiled churches of the modern world.

*(The statement "Surely I come quickly" {Rev 22:20} are Christ's last appearing words in the Bible, but it is actually a quote by John back from {Rev 22:7 &12}).

And then there is the mention in {Rev 17:5-6} of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? Come on Christian - wake up. And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" {Rev 6:11}, are they not of the 'Church'? Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" {Rev 7:13}, are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?
Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?

NOTE: A difficulty in understanding Revelation prophecy is greatly removed when the student realizes that the 42 months of {Rev 11:2} (3½ years, or, the Time, Times and Half of {Daniel 12:7}) has been shortened by the grace of God to 5 months. This was prophesied to come about by Jesus in {Mt 24:22 & Mk 13:20}, and fulfilled by the Holy Spirit in {Rev 9:5 & 10}.
In understanding this (which the Rapture doctors do not) it becomes impossible for the 144,000 to have time to spread the Gospel to the lost souls on earth during the Tribulation, because they (144,000) are sealed just prior to the end of the Great Tribulation - right before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. They are sealed at almost the last moment, for we see the Angel of God restrain the four Angels of the wrath of God until the 144,000 are sealed {Rev 7:3}.
This is significant because the rapture theory needs this full amount of time (7 or 3½ years) to be true in order to account for all the godly activity by men on earth during the Tribulation, written in the book of Revelation, which they say will be void of the Church. If one accepts that the Church is in fact present during the Tribulation then the Scriptures of the book of Revelation flow like honey!

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

Or what about this Scripture, is this not the Church??? Who are these saints, spoken of prior to the end of the earth, whom are on the earth during the 6th and 7th trump (the last) if not true believers, and if true believers then are they not the Church? You remember what a church is - it is simply a body of believers not having walls or name: "14 The second woe is past [6th trump]; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly...15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th trump]; and there were great voices in heaven...17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" {Rev 11:14-18}. [This is not speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15} which isn't for at least another 1000 years (after the Millennium), this is the Second Advent of Christ when He comes with a rod of iron and great fury and wrath {Rev19:11-21}]
And what about {Rev 12:14}? Do you think that the 'woman' is not the Church on earth after Revelation chapter four? Come-on Christian, wake up, you will be here during the Great Tribulation, the question is will you be prepared to stand!:

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

Rev 12:14-17
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Still not enough proof for you that the Church is mentioned after Revelation chapter four? Well then, try this one on for size:

Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)
Do you need more? here's more: "12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." {Rev 14:12-13}. Or how about this: "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" {Rev 15:2}; Gee, do you think these over-comers were on the earth during the time of the beast (antichrist) and the time of the taking of the mark of the beast?!? Duh! Who resists satan but the true Church of Jesus Christ! Let's shorten this up a bit, the 'saints and prophets' of {Rev 16:6}, do you say they are not of Christ's true church? Or {Rev 17:6}, who are these 'saints and martyrs,' devil worshippers from the church of satan? - Of course not! And in {Rev 17:8}, the beast from the pit is only worshipped by those "whose names were not written in the book of life," are there then not also some present on the earth at this time whose name is written in the Book of Life, and are they not of the true church of Jesus Christ?!? Or {Rev 17:14}, and {Rev 18:24}, and {Rev 19:7-9}, and {Rev 20:4-6}. These are only the direct references to God's people, His true Church, present after Revelation chapter four, on the earth during and through the time of the Great Tribulation of antichrist. There are many other indirect references to the Church during the Tribulation, but it would take much background work to explain them adequately.
But the Rapture doctor teaches that the Church is not mentioned after Rev 4:1, and the 'saints' won't be here for the Tribulation, therefore the book of Revelation is not important to study. But beloved, the book of Revelation warns the Church of what is to befall us; Don't let some apostate Rapture doctor steal any of the Word of God from you.
Why did God see to it that the Church would have the warnings of the book of Revelation?!? And why do some seek to steal those warnings from the Church? Who do they work for anyway? And when they tell you that you don't need to understand the book of Revelation, or they misrepresent it's warnings to you, isn't what they are doing really just another form of violating the solemn warning: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" {Rev 22:19}?!? And how about you friend, how many of God's children, your family and friends even!, have you mislead with your false Rapture doctrines? Repent, and undo the damage! "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" {Rev 18:4}. The Rapture doctors also state that Scripture never mentions that the Tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. Once again, they are wrong, that is the sole purpose of the Tribulation, and the sole purpose of this earth age as well! They very reason that we are here on this earth in these sickly, temporal mortal bodies is because of the great rebellion in Heaven in the first earth age. We, we all, Christians and heathen alike are here to decide whether we will love the Lord God through Jesus Christ, or satan through the ways of this world. If you do not understand about the three earth ages (NOT reincarnation!!!) see: WHEN WAS THE BEGINNING?. The Rapture doctors appear clueless on this or their folly would be evident to them, but the real question is are they wrong in ignorance or are they purposely lying?

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

The Old Testament book of Daniel gives us a very detailed view of the Great Tribulation. Below, are a couple of quick looks at the prophecy of Daniel that DOCUMENT that God's people will be on the earth during the Great Tribulation at the time that the antichrist (satan) is here:
Dan 11:33-36
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. (KJV)
Dan 7:25-26
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (KJV)
Dan 12:7
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (KJV)

Rev 2:9-11
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (KJV)

More in depth study:
Link
Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

keras · Aug 11, 2014

Thanks Riberra, your posts are a good refutation of the false 'rapture to heaven' teaching.
We are earth beings, made to serve God's purposes here and we have work to do now, but when the Lord's righteous people, [the Ekelisaia, the Church] go to live in all of the holy Land, then we will be 'a light to the nations', Isaiah 42:6 and 'display His glory for all to see'. Ezekiel 39:27-29
Note in Isaiah 24:2 that everyone will be present on earth during the Lord's Day of wrath. Luke 21:35

JLB777 · Aug 11, 2014

Riberra said:
Source

Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

Aside from pulling verses violently out of context with a complete disregard for the subject and object of a passage to support their vain theories, the Rapture doctors also make fundamental Scriptural errors or false statements that are easily identified by even Sunday-school students; The Rapture doctors (those who teach Rapture theories) seemingly blindly error by saying that the Church must be 'Raptured out' because it isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 (which in reality, verse {4:1} isn't even talking about the Church at all, nor a Rapture of same, it is talking about John, "the Disciple Christ loved," the writer of the book of Revelation:
Rev 4:1 (John speaking)
1 After thisI looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (KJV)

You wont believe this! But this (by their own boast) is one of the Rapture doctor's 'strongest' and most repeated 'documentations' for the Rapture doctrine. They even state that this is the last words recorded to the Rapture 'saints'. Ok, lets pop this one on our Sunday-school students: "Who is it in the above Scripture that the voice from Heaven is calling to "come up hither"?"
Choices:

St. John, the author of the verse, or,

The entire God worshipping, Jesus Christ loving Christian end-time Church?

Answer:
The correct answer is number One (#1), St. John, the one doing the writing, the one who calls himself "I," and "Me." Any Sunday-school student who got this wrong should go directly to the back of the class! When someone writes "I," or "Me," they mean themselves - duh!
But like we stated earlier, any time a Rapturist sees a term like "up," or "rise," or "gather," or "clouds," or basically anything 'atmospheric' or 'airy,' they get all 'giddy' inside and think that it is speaking of their escape from prophecy, which is of course quite impossible. God doesn't remove us, He prepares us! Are you prepared?

They say that the Church is not mentioned
after Rev 4:1 - We say: "Oh really?"
First of all, what is the church? It is a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. Ok, the Rapture doctors state that the Church is not mentioned after {Rev 4:1}, but then our Sunday-schooler opens his/her Bible to the last chapter in the book of Revelation, the sixth verse from the end of the Bible even, to Jesus Christ's last recorded words*, and reads:
Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (KJV)
Whoops! Didn't Jesus know that the churches don't need to hear the testimony of those things in the book of Revelation because they will be 'raptured away' before they come to pass? I mean, if I though I was going to be raptured somewhere by someone, I would certainly hope that he knew that He was supposed to come to Rapture me - or else I'm in a world of trouble, aren't I!
I am being somewhat sarcastic here, but really, the Rapture doctrine is such a stretch of the imagination that one struggles to comprehend how good intelligent Christians can possibly base the welfare of their very souls upon it. Come-on Christian, wake up, You are being deceived! And don't blame God, He warned you in Scripture after Scripture...but many would rather listen to some man, some false preacher/teacher from the pulpits of the wholly corrupted and beguiled churches of the modern world.
*(The statement "Surely I come quickly" {Rev 22:20} are Christ's last appearing words in the Bible, but it is actually a quote by John back from {Rev 22:7 &12}).

And then there is the mention in {Rev 17:5-6} of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? Come on Christian - wake up. And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" {Rev 6:11}, are they not of the 'Church'? Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" {Rev 7:13}, are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?
Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?
NOTE: A difficulty in understanding Revelation prophecy is greatly removed when the student realizes that the 42 months of {Rev 11:2} (3½ years, or, the Time, Times and Half of {Daniel 12:7}) has been shortened by the grace of God to 5 months. This was prophesied to come about by Jesus in {Mt 24:22 & Mk 13:20}, and fulfilled by the Holy Spirit in {Rev 9:5 & 10}.
In understanding this (which the Rapture doctors do not) it becomes impossible for the 144,000 to have time to spread the Gospel to the lost souls on earth during the Tribulation, because they (144,000) are sealed just prior to the end of the Great Tribulation - right before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. They are sealed at almost the last moment, for we see the Angel of God restrain the four Angels of the wrath of God until the 144,000 are sealed {Rev 7:3}.
This is significant because the rapture theory needs this full amount of time (7 or 3½ years) to be true in order to account for all the godly activity by men on earth during the Tribulation, written in the book of Revelation, which they say will be void of the Church. If one accepts that the Church is in fact present during the Tribulation then the Scriptures of the book of Revelation flow like honey!

There is no such scripture or Idea of a "pre-trib" Rapture in the bible!

The Day of the Lord is a reference to the second Coming of Jesus Christ!

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the church!

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4

JLB

Jerico Miles · Aug 11, 2014

Riberra said:
NOTE: A difficulty in understanding Revelation prophecy is greatly removed when the student realizes that the 42 months of {Rev 11:2} (3½ years, or, the Time, Times and Half of {Daniel 12:7}) has been shortened by the grace of God to 5 months. This was prophesied to come about by Jesus in {Mt 24:22 & Mk 13:20}, and fulfilled by the Holy Spirit in {Rev 9:5 & 10}.
In understanding this (which the Rapture doctors do not) it becomes impossible for the 144,000 to have time to spread the Gospel to the lost souls on earth during the Tribulation, because they (144,000) are sealed just prior to the end of the Great Tribulation - right before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. They are sealed at almost the last moment, for we see the Angel of God restrain the four Angels of the wrath of God until the 144,000 are sealed {Rev 7:3}.
This is significant because the rapture theory needs this full amount of time (7 or 3½ years) to be true in order to account for all the godly activity by men on earth during the Tribulation, written in the book of Revelation, which they say will be void of the Church. If one accepts that the Church is in fact present during the Tribulation then the Scriptures of the book of Revelation flow like honey!

And this source believes the tribulation period last a total of 47 months and not 84.

JLB777 · Aug 11, 2014

Jerico Miles said:
And this source believes the tribulation period last a total of 47 months and not 84.

The Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70 th week is 7 years.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:6-7

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Revelation 12:14

23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. 24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
Daniel 7:23-25

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6

This three and a half year time period is associated with the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, [7 year] time period from Daniel 9:27.

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:15,21

The Abomination of Desolation is associated with the "middle of the 70th week", spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27

JLB

Danoh · Aug 11, 2014

What was, and or might be "The Tribulation"?

For that matter, in accordance with, and toward what intent?

Jerico Miles · Aug 11, 2014

JLB777 said:
The Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70 th week is 7 years.

The "Great" Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70th week is 7 years.

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

JLB777 said:
Riberra said:

NOTE: A difficulty in understanding Revelation prophecy is greatly removed when the student realizes that the 42 months of {Rev 11:2} (3½ years, or, the Time, Times and Half of {Daniel 12:7}) has been shortened by the grace of God to 5 months. This was prophesied to come about by Jesus in {Mt 24:22 & Mk 13:20}, and fulfilled by the Holy Spirit in {Rev 9:5 & 10}.
In understanding this (which the Rapture doctors do not) it becomes impossible for the 144,000 to have time to spread the Gospel to the lost souls on earth during the Tribulation, because they (144,000) are sealed just prior to the end of the Great Tribulation - right before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. They are sealed at almost the last moment, for we see the Angel of God restrain the four Angels of the wrath of God until the 144,000 are sealed {Rev 7:3}.
This is significant because the rapture theory needs this full amount of time (7 or 3½ years) to be true in order to account for all the godly activity by men on earth during the Tribulation, written in the book of Revelation, which they say will be void of the Church. If one accepts that the Church is in fact present during the Tribulation then the Scriptures of the book of Revelation flow like honey!

Click to expand...

The Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70 th week is 7 years.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:6-7

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Revelation 12:14

23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. 24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
Daniel 7:23-25

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6

This three and a half year time period is associated with the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, [7 year] time period from Daniel 9:27.

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:15,21

The Abomination of Desolation is associated with the "middle of the 70th week", spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27

JLB

Good post.The shortened of the Antichrist reign is a Bible prophesy found in
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24%3A22&version=KJV

Matthew 24:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jerico Miles · Aug 11, 2014

And the OP apparently changed the title of the thread from the link.

Title of thread: Examining the supposed 'Pre-Trib Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

Title from Link: Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

Well after reading the link, It's apparent the argument is not against Pre-Trib, it's arguments are there is no rapture per se at all.

Our above Rapture doctor also makes an ominous statement that he doesn't even realize, nor does he fathom it to be true. He states: "For the events in Rev 7:3-8 to be true, in a post-trib way, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church."

Sadly, the 'Church' (Christians) will have by then turned against God. Not on purpose mind you, but by being deceived into worshipping satan, the false christ antichrist, they will have constructively turned against the true Christ and God. They do so in ignorance, they have been mislead by false teachers/preachers who spread false doctrines (like Rapture theories for instance). This however, does not mean that they are condemned to Hell, many have rcieved the blessing of the 'Spirit of Slumber' (covered further on in this study), which makes them not fully accountable for worshipping satan as antichrist because they do so in ignorance.

Where, I ask the reader, is any Rapture here?!? There is no Rapture before or after the Sealing of the 144,000; There is no Rapture in the Bible!

Riberra · Aug 11, 2014

Jerico Miles said:
And the OP apparently changed the title of the thread from the link.

Title of thread: Examining the supposed 'Pre-Trib Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

Title from Link: Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible

That is me who have added Pre-Trib in the OP title ... because it pertain as a warning that the rapture ie gathering together will happen when Jesus Return at the END of the Great Tribulation NOT Pre-Trib or Mid-trib.

Here the main link for full details: (lot of stuff)
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?

The Rapture according to them:Back to list at top of page

Rapture Positions Compared
Chart at right courtesy of Sign Ministries.
This chart provides a simple comparison of the four general positions that are taken in reference to the timing of the Rapture in relation to Daniel's 70th Week - the seven-year period at the bottom.
Both the Pre-trib and Pre-wrath positions have question marks that indicate that there is no fixed time for when they say the Rapture will occur. Mid-trib places the Rapture at the halfway mark, or three-and-a-half years from the beginning of the 70th Week. Post-trib fixes the Rapture at the completion of the seven-year period.

Pre-Tribulational Rapturism:
This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today among those who believe in any one of the many Rapture theories. It's roots can be traced back to 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

The final 7-year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
The entire 7-year period is considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured prior to the 7-year period.
The Rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The Tribulation is one event, it is the Great Tribulation:" For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." {Matt 24:21}. The 'Church' is protected by the Grace of God during the Tribulation: "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." {Heb 13:5} - It is not 'flown out' in some Rapture. They are confusing the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist, God's wrath is not directed at the 'Church.' (The "Church" is the body of faithful believers, God's Elect). God's wrath occurs in the final minutes before the Millennium, and is His way of 'cleaning house,' so to speak.
Mid-Tribulation Rapturism:
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941.
This view believes:

The final 7 year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured at the mid-way point.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The "Day of the Lord" is not the Tribulation, it is the end of it. The "Day of the Lord" is the thousand year period spoken of in {Rev 20:2-5} and referred to as the "Millennium," which begins at the Second Advent: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." {2 Pet 3:8}. And this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first version, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.
Pre-Wrath Rapturism:
This view believes:

The Day of the Lord is called the Wrath of God. The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period. Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, the Rapture of the Church occurs immediately prior to the Day of the Lord.
The Pre-Wrath position is not a new position of the Rapture teaching Churches. The only thing that is new is the name. They view that the Church would see Antichrist and be removed prior to God's judgment.

This is also wrong, wrong, wrong, but they are getting closer to the truth. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) but the then err in saying that they will be removed just prior to the antichrist's (satan's) arrival. By them saying above that: "The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period," what they in essence are saying is that the "Day of the Lord" is half a day, or a third.... That just doesn't work! And again, this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first two versions, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also once again confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.
Post-Tribulation Rapturism:
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion (among Rapturists) during the time of the Reformation (16th century), but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are a lot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

The church must endure the entire 7-year period, to be Raptured at the end of the Tribulation. God will protect his children through His wrath.

This is also in error, but they are the closest to the truth out of all Rapture theories. But they fall off right at the end. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) and that they will be here for the time of the false messiah antichrist. Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!
This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.

The fundamental error in all the above 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium.
Read the below Scripture carefully and put out of your mind all that false 'Rapture' stuff. The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

For the purposes of this study we shall concern ourselves mainly with what is called the 'Pre-Tribulation Rapture,' as that is by far the most common version of the Rapture theory today. It is the pre-tribulation Rapture that they speak of on the television religious programs. It is the pre-tribulation Rapture that the false 'forehead slapping' healing ministries speak of (those who prey upon the sick and crippled) who smack you on the forehead and claim to heal you in God's name - naturally you are to contribute a considerable sum of money to them, but you are not healed. God does not run circus side-show acts and He doesn't beg for mammon (money). God does heal people even to this day. There are documented cases of God intervening and healing a faithful servant. But there isn't a fee, and it isn't gaudy, it is done in private, and it most certainly isn't accomplished by a false teacher/preacher! How many times when Jesus Himself healed someone that He told them not to tell anyone?!?
It is the pre-tribulation Rapture that the corrupt prosperity ministries speak of (those that con greedy people into giving them their 'seed offering,' or who tell the people to 'plant seeds of faith' i.e., $$$ into their ministries and God will supposedly 'supernaturally' pay those peoples bills and drop wealth and riches by the basket-full upon them from Heaven). These are greedy dead soul ministers ripping-off a greedy ignorant congregation whom deserve no better! Shame on them for imagining our Lord as a get-rich quick scheme or a magic lantern for lazy people to rub on for three free wishes. At what point will people realize that we are to serve God, not be served by Him? For our God does provide for us, but only for those who do the Lord's will.

Matt 6:31-33
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (KJV)

keras · Aug 12, 2014

There is no scripture that says humans go to heaven. Even 'In My Fathers house there are many mansions... does NOT say that is in heaven.
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
What needs to be realized, is we have work to do here on earth, there is no 'cop out' and the utterly foolish notion of 'sitting on the clouds, strumming harps', is actually sinful.

Tellastory · Aug 12, 2014

keras said:
There is no scripture that says humans go to heaven. Even 'In My Fathers house there are many mansions... does NOT say that is in heaven.
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
What needs to be realized, is we have work to do here on earth, there is no 'cop out' and the utterly foolish notion of 'sitting on the clouds, strumming harps', is actually sinful.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is Jesus now? In Heaven. So there is precedent to believe that these verses are referring to Jesus as the Bridegroom in receiving them with hospitality for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in the Father's mansion, because He referred to place where He is now that He would be taking them to.

There is His appearing and His actual coming. Two separate events.

There is the falling away from the faith & then the son of perdition is revealed. Two events. Why? Jesus is not doing both of them at the same time, but He will deal with each of them in its time.

To Riberra;

Just because some believers teach the pre trib rapture in the wrong manner and apply verses in the wrong way, does not mean there is no pre trib rapture.

You do not have Jesus warning believers to be ready or else unless He was appearing to judge His House first leaving those not ready behid to face the fire He will send on the earth, and the coming great tribulation.

And in all His warnings to be ready and when they would be taken, it is not descriptive of the times when left behind believers shall suffer the oppression of the great tribulation. The times Jesus describes for believers to be ready is the time that is now when the cares of this life would and could ensnare us that we would not want to go in favour of this life.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You really think that applies to christians during the end of the great tribulation?

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

So it is the way our lives are now that will be a snare.

Go to this link:

Luke Chapter 17 - King James Bible With Strong's Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Scroll down to the last verse and click on that long Greek text third from the last one mirroring that last verse and you should see this:

from sun - sun 4862 and agw - ago 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially, to entertain (hospitably):--+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

Some Bibles have changed out eagles with vultures and interpreted that verse to mean God is getting rid of all the bad guys at the end of the great tribulation. Not with hospitality to gather them to be entertained, they are not.

If you click on the last Greek text mirroring that last verse, you would see where eagle was translated from.

from the same as ahr - aer 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):--eagle.

God is coming to judge His House first because of the falling away from the faith. His appearing will send the angel with the everlasting gospel to every where on the earth and then the end shall come.

So the pre trib rapture is the call to be ready: so as to not procrastinate just because nobody sees the events of the great tribulation unfolding yet. The Bridegroom is coming to receive the ready bride to Heaven.

keras · Aug 12, 2014

Tellastory asks: Where is Jesus now, in heaven.
Is that right? No, He appeared to Paul on the Damascus road, He has appeared to many since, there are wonderful testimonies of His visible presence to people who have called to Him in sincere faith. He said: 'where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I will be among them and I will be with you always, to the end of time'.
God owns everything and the "mansions" are on earth. Isaiah 54:2-3, Jeremiah 30:18
Jesus said: Luke 13:32 Today and tomorrow I will be working and on the third day is shall achieve My goal. That is: for 2000 years 'driving out demons and working cures', and then comes the Millennium.
The Bride must go through trials and testing before she is ready, pre trib rapture is wrong.

BABerean2 · Aug 12, 2014

Jerico Miles said:
The "Great" Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70th week is 7 years.

Many of us here understand the problems with the pretrib doctrine. However, a number of us have adopted a pillar of dispensational theology and do not even realize it, because we have been taught this interpretation all of our lives.

If you have not seen the article in the following link, take a look at another interpretation of Daniel 9:27. It is found in most of the older commentaries written before John Darby's promotion of the newer doctrine.

If you have already read it and considered it's implications, then I will shut up about it.

Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research

Jerico Miles · Aug 12, 2014

BABerean2 said:
Many of us here understand the problems with the pretrib doctrine. However, a number of us have adopted a pillar of dispensational theology and do not even realize it, because we have been taught this interpretation all of our lives.

If you have not seen the article in the following link, take a look at another interpretation of Daniel 9:27. It is found in most of the older commentaries written before John Darby's promotion of the newer doctrine.

If you have already read it and considered it's implications, then I will shut up about it.

Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research

Jerico Miles said:
The "Great" Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.

Daniel's 70th week is 7 years.

Riberra said:
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Pre-Tribulational Rapturism:
This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today among those who believe in any one of the many Rapture theories. It's roots can be traced back to 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

The final 7-year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
[*]The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.

The entire 7-year period is considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.

Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured prior to the 7-year period.

The Rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.

Do you need more reference?

Riberra · Aug 13, 2014

BABerean2 said:
If you have not seen the article in the following link, take a look at another interpretation of Daniel 9:27. It is found in most of the older commentaries written before John Darby's promotion of the newer doctrine.

If you have already read it and considered it's implications, then I will shut up about it.

Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research

Hi !BABerean2 .

Daniel 9:27King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Matthew 24:15
Jesus himself talk about a future event -based on Matthew 24 chapter context- implying a -particular individual - in direct relation to Daniel 9:27

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

BABerean2 · Aug 13, 2014

Riberra said:
Hi !BABerean2 .

Daniel 9:27King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Matthew 24:15
Jesus himself talk about a future event -based on Matthew 24 chapter context- implying a -particular individual - in direct relation to Daniel 9:27

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I am very aware of the newer interpretation.

I just wondered if anyone had actually read the article on the older interpretation.

I also wondered if anyone had looked at the older commentaries by Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, or Matthew Henry. None of them mention the antichrist in Daniel 9:27. They all concluded that it was fulfilled by Christ.

.

Examining the supposed 'Pre-Trib Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible:

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