Trinity Of God
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Hentenza
I will fear no evil for You are with me
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CR, it would benefit you to do a research on the extant manuscripts, uncials, and miniscules available through several internet sources or in books. You seem to be basing your understanding on incorrect information.
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Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) The Treatises Second Book-Testimonies 1.
Rev 22:13 -
Also in the Gospel according to John, the Lord says: And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest me to do. And now, do Thou glorify me with Thyself, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was made. Also Paul to the Colossians: Who is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature. Also in the same place: The first-born from the dead, that He might in all things become the holder of the pre-eminence. In the Apocalypse too: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto Him that is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely.
22. Also in the Apocalypse: And I saw a Lamb standing on Mount Sion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand; and they had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Also in the same place: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have power over the tree of life.
Rev 22:13 -
Also in the Gospel according to John, the Lord says: And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest me to do. And now, do Thou glorify me with Thyself, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was made. Also Paul to the Colossians: Who is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature. Also in the same place: The first-born from the dead, that He might in all things become the holder of the pre-eminence. In the Apocalypse too: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto Him that is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely.
22. Also in the Apocalypse: And I saw a Lamb standing on Mount Sion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand; and they had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Also in the same place: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have power over the tree of life.
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- Jul 10, 2013
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Could it be a poster in this thread is simply SULKING because of not getting a part in THE DA VINCI CODE ??
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- Aug 8, 2004
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Funny, that is what Jack Chic claims too.
Am sure it helps sell tracts and it is titillating to spread such gossip. Apparently since there are plenty of historic books/records that are used to paint the Church in a negative light ( which we have in at least part because of the Church), am always amazed that folks need to imagine some conspiracy within the Church to bury whatever missing source that if they could only get there hands on it would prove whatever it is they want to claim.
That's alright it is not uncommon actually. Have met people that think our government did the 9-11 job and they could prove it if only they got their hands on some of those alledged missing documents the government keeps stored but offline.
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C
catholichomeschooler
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This is completely irrelevant to your point.
I guess you can't defend your original statement.
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Ratiocination
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Well hello to you to... i'm fine by the way... thanks for asking ;-)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cyprian's opinion on the matter is hardly of any worth, notwithstanding the fact that his conclusion of the issue doesnt match yours, i.e. he doesnt believe that the title of 'Alpha and Omega' makes Jesus the second person in a triune being, he's also just expressing his personal belief 150 or so years after the death of the last apostles. And that der is very dangerous indeed given the warnings in scripture (2Peter 2:1). You should stick to the inerrant word of God when making a defence of your claims otherwise you may end up just reprinting the same mistakes of the apostates that came before us...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]With that said I thought you believed the bible to have no contradictions? If so you have just created one here with your theology! You see Christ is said to be brothers of those that conquer...[/FONT]
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[/FONT]Revelation 21:6 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These verses indicate that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are NOT brothers of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega, but they will be his sons. However, the kind of relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ was one of brotherhood.[/FONT]
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[/FONT]Heb. 2:11 said:
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[/FONT]Matt. 25:40 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And after his resurrection...[/FONT]
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[/FONT]Matt. 28:10 said:
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[/FONT]John 20:17 said:
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[/FONT]Revelation 12:10 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But those brothers of Jesus are referred to as sons of God. [/FONT]
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[/FONT]Gal. 3:26 said:
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[/FONT]Gal. 4:6 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So 'Clearly' the Alpha and the Omega at Rev. 22:13 is referring to Jehovah himself because:[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Alpha and Omega at Revelation 21:6,7 is said to be the father of those conquering.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus is said very clearly in scripture to be the brother of those Christians.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Brother and Son are not equivocal terms in any language to my knowledge.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cyprian and other early church leaders are not authoritative according to those apostles who were directly commissioned by Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You see, you have to take your assertions right to their conclusion, and the conclusion here would be a contradiction of scripture. Unless of course you can somehow squeeze out a famous Trinitarian explanation to sort out this misunderstanding, but even that would have to be explained somewhere in scripture. So Jesus being given the title of Alpha and Omega is a big 'no no' in scripture.[/FONT]
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We might say the same thing about your WBTS theology, that "opinion on the matter is hardly of any worth." You are expressing your personal belief 1860+ years after the death of the last apostles. Cyprian was a native Greek speaker and I consider his interpretaton of the scripture more accurate than the doctrinally biased "interpretations" of members of a 19th century erroneous religious group who are not native Greek speakers, and likely could not conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it.
I fail to see a contradiction. God is ominpotent, He can do anything He wants, any time He wants, anywhere and in any way He wants.
In historical Biblical Theology Jesus is both God and man, as God Christians are His sons, while He was man Christians are His brothers. And in support of my assertion that Jesus is God I offer these scriptures.
There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus, vs. 36] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus, vs. 36] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]
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CherubRam
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Publishing your finds is not permitted without their permission according to them. That makes them almost useless.
I would think that ancient bible text written for the public would not still come under copyright laws. How is it that the wealthy are able to keep ancient biblical text as their own property? How many thousands of years will this go on?
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I suggest you familiarize yourself with the copyright laws. Hentenza did nothing wrong.
Historical artifacts, such as ancient scrolls Biblical or otherwise, found on public lands, unless the country where they are discovered claims them as state property, belong to whomever discovers them. No different than prospectors finding gold in Alaska.
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I do not believe in the Da Vinci Code, to me it is complete nonsense.
I believe in the word of GOD only.
Above all, why would GOD coded something? What the purpose of it.
The only purpose of His Word is to educate us, to change us into better human beings, and invite us into His Heavenly Kingdom.
So why He would make it difficult for us?
I believe in the word of GOD only.
Above all, why would GOD coded something? What the purpose of it.
The only purpose of His Word is to educate us, to change us into better human beings, and invite us into His Heavenly Kingdom.
So why He would make it difficult for us?
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Ratiocination
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And I'm not sure how you can get so quickly confused, were not debating the translation of Rev. 22:13 were discussing who the title was applied to! If you need clarification in future of something ive written then just ask, i'm happy to aid you in anyway I can ;-)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Indeed, so can he even confuse the terms of 'Son' and 'Brother' if he chooses? My God, the God of the bible would endeavour to be extremely consistent with his use of language to avoid confusion! Do you worship a God of confusion?[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A very lazy and typical response der as usual, nothing changes lol! [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In my previous post are verses where Jesus still calls the Christians brothers, even after his resurrection![/FONT] Would you like me to re-paste them for you???
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I joined this conversation because you said Jesus is clearly called 'Alpha and Omega', my contention was the word 'clearly', you seem to have moved away from this somewhat, do I take that as a retraction? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You see your theology clearly clouds your judgement of certain things written in scripture, you stop digging far too early, and once the premature conclusion has been decided upon, then all other things contrary to that conclusion must be explained in a rather obscure way.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I asked for an explanation from scripture to your expected Trinitarian response. What I mean is, I dont deny that the bible in places applies the title of Theos to Jesus, my contention is the then formulated doctrine of the trinity, with such an obscure and alien thinking would have required reams of pages to explain the relationship between The Almighty and the persons of the Almighty, it simply doesnt make even a small attempt at this explanation, therefore the Trinity doctrine must be regarded with great suspicion![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Not so sure Cyprian was native Greek, his writings were in Latin! If your argument rested on that, then it seems to have just sunk.[/FONT]Der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And I'm not sure how you can get so quickly confused, were not debating the translation of Rev. 22:13 were discussing who the title was applied to! If you need clarification in future of something ive written then just ask, i'm happy to aid you in anyway I can ;-)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Indeed, so can he even confuse the terms of 'Son' and 'Brother' if he chooses? My God, the God of the bible would endeavour to be extremely consistent with his use of language to avoid confusion! Do you worship a God of confusion?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A very lazy and typical response der as usual, nothing changes lol! [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In my previous post are verses where Jesus still calls the Christians brothers, even after his resurrection![/FONT] Would you like me to re-paste them for you???
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I joined this conversation because you said Jesus is clearly called 'Alpha and Omega', my contention was the word 'clearly', you seem to have moved away from this somewhat, do I take that as a retraction? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You see your theology clearly clouds your judgement of certain things written in scripture, you stop digging far too early, and once the premature conclusion has been decided upon, then all other things contrary to that conclusion must be explained in a rather obscure way.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I asked for an explanation from scripture to your expected Trinitarian response. What I mean is, I dont deny that the bible in places applies the title of Theos to Jesus, my contention is the then formulated doctrine of the trinity, with such an obscure and alien thinking would have required reams of pages to explain the relationship between The Almighty and the persons of the Almighty, it simply doesnt make even a small attempt at this explanation, therefore the Trinity doctrine must be regarded with great suspicion![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Agreed![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thought i'd address the daisy chain of Trinitarian weaknesses one at a time, starting with this one as it was first in your list...[/FONT]
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Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [/quote][/FONT]Der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This one is just kindergarten. To assume the meaning of a name says anything about the person is probably the weakest of the Trinitarian proof texts. For example elsewhere Eli′athah means God Has Come; Jehu means Jehovah Is He, so to be consistent, are you saying that these people are also God?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The paralell account here:[/FONT]
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[/FONT]Luke 1:32 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Says he will be great, not almighty, but great, son of the most high, not equal with, but the son, and given the throne of David. Why would almighty God need to be given a throne by anyone?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I'm looking forward to going through the rest of the proof texts youve provided but dont want to discourage others from jumping in by answering them all in one go...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cheers Der, I forgot how much fun this can be...[/FONT]
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Patellar reflex response. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" Yes this is going to be fun
And what exactly is it you think you "clarified" here?
I must have missed that memo where God designated you to speak for Him what He will or will not do.
Typical lazy patellar reflex response!
Was that when He returned as a flesh and bones man, not a spirit, or are you speaking about some other incident?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
What a joke. I have not moved away from anything. The grammar of Rev 22:13 refers to the one speaking vs. 12, " And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" and who identifies Himself as Jesus, vs. 16. Your theology demands that you slip in a couple of invisible changes of speaker.
You will see as we continue that it is your WTBS theology which clouds judgement. I would say also "premature conclusions" but they aren't conclusions only copy/pastes from WTBS writings.
What is the purpose of all of this irrelevant bloviation? Is this supposed to address anything I said?
And you think this is relevant how? That imperfect men name their children with theophoric names is irrelevant because they have no power to make their children be or become anything. But when God names someone He means what He says and says what He means. For example when God changed Abram's name, he became the progenitor of many nations as God said he would. Abraham means "father of a multitude."
Why would Jesus have to be given a throne? Read Phip 2:6-11.
NIV Phi 2:6 Who, being in very nature[1] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature[2] of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phi 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!
Phi 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phi 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature[2] of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phi 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!
Phi 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phi 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but highly exalted him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)
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The contents of the link are for you to study the variety of extant media available to you, not to publish your findings commercially. Studying the extant mss, uncials, and miniscules will give you the understanding of where they were found, what they say, and how they relate to the translations used in our bibles. The originals were not destroyed with the judiaziers but their location, if they are still extant, is not known. The copies come from a variety of countries and areas which makes it impossible for the CC to have altered them (although there is alterations in them but most probably come from margin notes making it into the text itself). You don't have to buy them but merely study them. This is just one site but there are many more. I assume that you know how to use a search engine to find others.
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Wrong analogy. While the scriptures were in general for mankind, indvidual copies belonged to somebody. If the original owner is no longer living, and any living relatives cannot be identified, as is the case here, my first reply still stands. The scrolls are historical artifacts and become the property of whomever finds them. As I said before just like prospectors who find gold in Alaska.
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der said:
This is the nature of debate! Did you foolishly make a false argument???der said:
Der said:
If you can reread it carefully I was not claiming to clarify anything, just inviting you to ask me for clarification... Sooo....When did I dispute the translation of Rev. 22:13??? Or was you last post just the usual bluster?Der said:
Der said:
So it's true! You do feel comfortable serving a God of confusion! Nice, not to hard to admit was it?Der said:
Let's think about your argument here!Der said:
You say Jesus is called Alpha and Omega...
I point out this cant be true because the Alpha and the omega is said to have sons in Rev 21...
Jesus calls his Christian followers 'brothers'...
You say he can call them by either term depending on his current status, i.e. as God or man...
Now you seem to be adding another completely irrelevant topic to the discussion, i.e. his bodily resurrection...
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
but either way you'd have to admit somewhere that Christ is no longer made of flesh, otherwise he cant call the Christians 'sons'!!!
Please follow along Der!
Der said:
Brilliant! Probably your finest detraction from an argument to date. I hate to admit it but I think I admire you deep down, no where ever have I met someone as thick skinned as you.Der said:
As previously pointed out the literal speaker in Rev. 22: 12,13 could well have been the angel that John attempts to worship in verses 9 and 10, you didnt answer this objection!
Der said:
Not directly, you know me by now Der, just laying the ground work for further discussion... All i'm asking is how did the Trinity doctrine sneak into the early Christian congregation (pre 100CE) undetected?Der said:
Der said:
And certainly when God named Jesus Immanuel, God was indeed with us! Your point?Der said:
Der said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Yep, all to the glory of God the father! But wait I didnt ask why Jesus would be given anything, I asked why Almighty God would be given a throne, not Jesus![/FONT] Another of your famous detractions lololDer said:
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