What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

LilLamb219

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MOD HAT ON

I just wanted to pop in and state that only Orthodox Christians and Unorthodox Christians are allowed to post in this particular forum (Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion). The top of this forum states:
orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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Hillsage

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Perplexed, this might be the most interesting part of the forums,
but you cant judge IQ's after only a few posts.
very true sis, but certainly not, always true. ;). Sometimes a 'first post' tells a lot.
 
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Hillsage

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haha, an interesting coincidence.

I suppose I am really an Atheist, but it is only fair to label myself as Agnostic as it cant be proven either way. I really dont like labels though.

I signed up to answer the OP, I thought it was an interesting idea.
I'm sorry P I guess now I know why I haven't seen the agnostic icon before. Too bad I would have loved to interact with you. I ride bicycles regularly with an attorney who is a professing atheist. We've had lots of lively discussions over the years. And, not surprisingly , it's his IQ that' s his biggest hold up in coming to an experiential knowledge of the truth IMO...of course.:D
 
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Hillsage

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This is just SOOO GOD. :bow: As I was finishing up my last post in the coffee shop, a brother in the praise band of a local FUNDAMENTAL church sat down with me. So I let him read my post prior to 'sending'. He laughed several times. Less than 5 minutes later, guess who walks in to the coffee shop????? THE ATTORNEY. :clap:

I laughed again and told him about the whole scenario up to that point...and 'the discussion' began. :cool: He was only there to get coffee and leave town with the family, so we only 'interacted' for about 5 minutes til his order came. His last word to us was; "You know I was kind of bushwhacked as soon as I walked in here this morning!" To which I responded; "J.. You know this was a truly a divine encounter don't you?" He laughed and left, we laughed, and stayed. Then he turned around, stuck his head back in the door and said; "You know I consider a 'co-incidence' don't you?" I laughed and said; And you know I think it was a 'God-incidence' too, right?" He laughed again and left, shaking his head.
 
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he-man

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No, I hope this wasn't wholly intolerable for you he-man. As I repeatedly tried to tell you, posts longer than a screen size, kinda are for me. If one can't get a point across with fewer words it certainly isn't proverbial. Be blessed :wave: :wave:
My thoughts are for you Hillsage for I do enjoy your input even if we are not on the same page. But isn't that what this forum is about? The discussion is to stimulate others into thinking and then re-thinking their position and you always have promoted interesting thoughts, however unbibical they may seem. Why not start with addressing the scripture I posted?
Luk 20:37 Now, that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob

Could you please explain to me what is your exegesis on Romans if Moses and Abel did not think he would be resurrected?

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Where in the Scriptures do you see the Angel of Death if it is not our Heavenly Father who controls life and death of every living thing? Then your DEATH ANGEL is non-existantly DEAD.

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked rulers for the day of evil.

Hope this is short enough to expand your comprehension
In Christ,
he-man
 
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Hillsage

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My thoughts are for you Hillsage for I do enjoy your input even if we are not on the same page.
Thank you Jesus for this response he-man. :hug: I honestly wondered. But now I must add, I still do wonder if you even consider me as a brother in Christ. Or are my many unorthodox views too grave (sic) for me to be resurrected unto life. :D

But isn't that what this forum is about? The discussion is to stimulate others into thinking and then re-thinking their position and you always have promoted interesting thoughts, however unbibical they may seem.
Truly spoken as one schooled by man. And a claim I'd willingly bow to. But, OTOH, I believe I am more perceptive to that truth which must be Sspiritually taught/revealed (Not asking for agreement on that point :p) And those 'Sspirit views' still crash with the views of modern day pharisees just as they did in Jesus' days. ;)

Why not start with addressing the scripture I posted?
I would have hoped to say; becasue I'm gonna have fun with an athesist. But unfortunately that excuse seems to be fading.
Luk 20:37 Now, that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob

Could you please explain to me what is your exegesis on Romans if Moses and Abel did not think he would be resurrected?
My point, from the beginning was this; Moses never knew what Jesus was relating to be 'the truth', as it was veiled through the Law under which Moses operated. IOW Moses never said the dead are raised....anywhere I know of. :confused:
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Case in point. All, not just these, which you've shared prior have been NT. The NT is the OT 'revealed' and that truth was 'concealed' to those under the OT.

Where in the Scriptures do you see the Angel of Death if it is not our Heavenly Father who controls life and death of every living thing? Then your DEATH ANGEL is non-existantly DEAD.
YOU are RIGHT! :blush: I just searched, and what 'I believed' was certainly more ORTHODOX teaching I've ignorantly clung to. "Angel of Death" does not exist in scripture, nor does even the word "angel" exist in the plaques preceding the Exodus. I concede on 'that point'. :bow:

Hope this is short enough to expand your comprehension
In Christ,
he-man
It was shorter. :thumbsup: And, it didn't take two screen changes to even accomplish a change for me. :clap:
 
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he-man

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Thank you Jesus for this response he-man. :hug: I honestly wondered. But now I must add, I still do wonder if you even consider me as a brother in Christ. Or are my many unorthodox views too grave (sic) for me to be resurrected unto life. :D
:confused: Didn't you see my signature?
In Christ,
he-man
Truly spoken as one schooled by man. And a claim I'd willingly bow to. But, OTOH, I believe I am more perceptive to that truth which must be Sspiritually taught/revealed (Not asking for agreement on that point :p) And those 'Sspirit views' still crash with the views of modern day pharisees just as they did in Jesus' days. ;)
:amen:Case in point
Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
My point, from the beginning was this; Moses never knew what Jesus was relating to be 'the truth', as it was veiled through the Law under which Moses operated. IOW Moses never said the dead are raised....anywhere I know of. :confused:
How then could Moses understand God if He is not the God of the Living and the God of the dead? "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Rev 3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

"The book of the living"—"the book of life"—the book of God’s writing—is not merely a register of those who happen to be alive at any given time. It "contains the list of the righteous, and ensures to those whose names are written therein, life before God, first in the earthly kingdom of God, and then eternal life also" (Keil).

Thus Moses declared his willingness—nay, his wish—that God would visit on him the guilt of his people, both in this world and the next, so that he would thereupon forgive them. [The Pulpit]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Case in point. All, not just these, which you've shared prior have been NT. The NT is the OT 'revealed' and that truth was 'concealed' to those under the OT.
Sorry, but that did not apply to Moses who prophesied the coming of Jesus.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Don't you know the Song of Moses :confused:
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
 
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Josephus

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No, my friend, there is NOTHING contained within the ENTIRE Bible that I have found that offers JUSTIFICATION for men believing DIFFERENTLY than in the TRUTH that has been delivered by God through prophet, apostle or His Own Son. There is CERTAINLY NO ENCOURAGEMENT offered within it's pages. Where you came up with THAT idea is about as confusing as the idea itself.

What if you've been duped to believe that? I agree there is one truth to every matter. Truth just is. It's not in conflict with itself. But even godly men can disagree about what the truth is - and that is all I'm saying: it's not abnormal. Granted there is one truth to a matter. But saying that believers should all agree on what that truth is, is not realistic - according to the example of Moses and Aaron.

Certainly though on more fundamental matters, truth will be agreed upon since they are more readily obvious and apparent. But even then, this is not guaranteed since people are as unique as there are people in their approach and understanding of the bible and things around them.
 
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BukiRob

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A lot of it was never truth to begin with. For example, slavery is no longer acceptable and therefore was never a truth.



If it wasnt open to interpretation, people couldnt offer thier own opinion. It should clear, precise and to the point.

Your leaping to the conclusion that G-d advocated slavery. That he decreed it... nothing could be further from the truth

There is a monumental difference between TOLERATING something and advocating. Yeshua give a perfect example of this when he talks about divorce.... he gave the enlighted position of how because of the hardness of their hearts G-d previously tolerated it but gave through Christ the expanded revelation of how HE HATES it.

haha, an interesting coincidence.

I suppose I am really an Atheist, but it is only fair to label myself as Agnostic as it cant be proven either way. I really dont like labels though.

I signed up to answer the OP, I thought it was an interesting idea.
 
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Hillsage

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:confused: Didn't you see my signature?
In Christ,
To me that means YOU 'in Christ' signing off, not me. :p Boldly say me.! :pray:
he-man :amen:Case in point
Gosh he-man I'm kinda liking this side of you. I often suspected a computer generated picture and bible programmed software as the source of so much 'bible writing'. :) ;)

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
How then could Moses understand God if He is not the God of the Living and the God of the dead? "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
I suspect that 'spirit returning unto God' sorta left there soul body here in the Jewish mindset. And not being 'born from above' (acceptable term?) they related more to their corporeal existence. Just thinking, can't support that POV.


Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever
OOOOH now we're getting into the definition of 'eternal' in scripture which, as you know, we Universal Reconciliation people have a whole different take on. :sorry:

"The book of the living"&#8212;"the book of life"&#8212;the book of God&#8217;s writing&#8212;is not merely a register of those who happen to be alive at any given time. It "contains the list of the righteous, and ensures to those whose names are written therein, life before God, first in the earthly kingdom of God, and then eternal life also" (Keil).
oh oh I have a whole theology concerning "The book of the life of the lamb" not founded on the one you are trying to support. Sorry, sure not a one screen rebuttal, this one.


Thus Moses declared his willingness&#8212;nay, his wish&#8212;that God would visit on him the guilt of his people, both in this world and the next, so that he would thereupon forgive them. [The Pulpit]
Doesn't fit my POV either, same as above.


Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sorry, but that did not apply to Moses who prophesied the coming of Jesus.
Pretty good one. But not uncrackable IMO. Daniel was a sealed book.
The book of the Revelation says "Do not seal up these words" and it's been 2000 years..hmmm, think about it. Many agree Daniel was sealed for 400 years and then it was opened/fulfilled. In this time frame physical Israel's judgment and the end of "the law and the prophets" was dealt with, according to the prophecies of Daniel. No 'last week' for us, in that Dan 'week-gap' theology. Those who were risen from the graves at the crucifixion of Jesus we have no record of concerning how they finished their lives before dying again prior to Danny's 400 being 'up'. Some may have been faithful some may not have. Some walked faithfully in 'age-during life' some didn't.

Deu 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Don't you know the Song of Moses :confused:
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Yep, all consistent with my POV on the book of the life of the lamb....but not yours. :p

Ooops, way beyond a screen. Shame on you, shame on me. Now my eyes hurt. Good night BROTHER. :wave:
 
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Imagican

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Of course there is one truth, and yes, water is wet. It clearly understood, proven and written in such a way that it is easy to understand why water is wet and undebatable. There is no room for interpretation, it is clear and precise.

The bible however is far from precise and open to interpretation, hence the confusion.

The bible is messy, written in an old laguage, hard to translate and largly irrelevant to todays society. It should have been updated through the centuries, but somehow it wasnt.

And that is WHY we MUST rely upon the Holy Spirit's 'guidance and conviction' in order to UNDERSTAND what is written within it's pages.

I know. Hocus Pocus, right? Not according to the Bible itself.

I am a FIRM believer that the Bible was ONLY written for FEW to understand. That is WHY there are SO MANY 'different' interpretations. For ANYONE that attempts to interpret what it offers WITHOUT the guidance of the Holy Spirit is BOUND to MIS interpret what it has to offer. That is ONE of the reasons the Catholic Church was so insistent about keeping the Bible FROM the 'people'. ONE of the reason{s}.

It's kind of like this. In college most end up taking certain required courses. Composition is one of those courses. And in order to get even an associates degree, MOST are REQUIRED to take both I and II.

In MY comp class, part of the curriculum required that we read certain pieces of poetry and then explain what the writer was trying to convey. Not an EASY task for some. But in TRUTH, there IS common consensus that is UNDERSTOOD by SOME. And that SOME being a SMALL percentage of those that are ASKED to INTERPRET what the writer was writing about.

In my class, there were about TWO people out of forty that came CLOSE. That means that 38 of those that completed their assignment WEREN'T even CLOSE. But there WERE TWO who's papers DID describe something almost IDENTICAL, (no, they didn't cheat). It was simply a matter of them being ABLE to UNDERSTAND and the REST NOT being able to UNDERSTAND.

And it is this way with LIFE in general. Most people never even CONTEMPLATE REALITY. From an early age they are taught to create their OWN. And RARELY do these 'realities' come CLOSE to TRUE reality.

And when one creates their OWN reality, it is very difficult, if not absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for someone to UNDERSTAND the TRUE reality. For they won't even contemplate it after forming their OWN. As far as they are concerned, their 'created reality' IS reality. The ONLY reality.

Six billion people could read the Bible, and without the GUIDANCE and CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit, come up with six billion DIFFERENT interpretations. The six billion could be six TRILLION.

The point is; that UNTIL one is TRULY 'born again', (I know, more hocus pocus, right?), it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for them to even come CLOSE to a TRUE interpretation of the Bible. For it is NOT possible for the FLESH to correctly interpret it. It takes a LITERAL 'circumcision of the heart' in order to SEE what the words MEAN in TRUTH.

Otherwise, one is simply reading words that ARE left up to PERSONAL interpretation. And this is PLAINLY illustrated THROUGH the words of the Bible itself. It STATES that: to the world, the words contained within it's pages are BUT FOOLISHNESS.

That means that one trying to interpret what it offers is forced to MAKE UP what they decide it means in order to TRY and make ANY sense of it. And if one is MAKING UP what they BELIEVE it offers the odds of their interpretation being correct are BILLIONS to ONE. And those are odds that are beyond even those of the lottery. You would stand a better chance of being bitten by a shark or struck by lightening.

And I will offer this as well. IF one is ABLE to come to a correct interpretation of the Bible, their WORKS will REFLECT IT. So if one's WORKS do NOT reflect what the words offer in TRUTH, then that person is OBVIOUSLY convincing themselves of something INCORRECT so far as interpretation is concerned.

To BE a 'true follower' and UNDERSTAND what it is that the Bible offers, one MUST make a COMMITMENT. And not a 'commitment' of the sort 'the world' has come to accept as commitment. It takes a TRUE commitment. DEVOTION. A belief that goes BEYOND just SAYING one believes. It takes TRUE belief, and in coming to that belief, utter commitment. The sort of commitment FEW will EVER decide to FOLLOW.

But the 'churches' won't teach you this. They want you to keep coming back. And if they EVER started TEACHING the TRUTH, no one would. For once one is Able to come to the TRUTH, they will recognize just how CHILDISH the 'churches' truly ARE. Not even capable of teaching the congregation to CRAWL, much less walk or RUN.

Just take these FEW words into consideration instead of listening to MINE:

Matthew 7:

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


MANY will follow a path to destruction, FEW will follow the path that leads to LIFE. Not MY words. These are words straight out of the mouth of Christ.


in thy name, in thy name, in thy name. WHO would profess to be DOING things in 'the NAME OF CHRIST' other than 'the churches'? Who would THINK that they had the RIGHT TO BRAG about the WONDERFUL 'things' they had done other than 'the churches'? Yet what are Christ's words to those that PROFESS to have been doing what they THOUGHT they were suppose to? "I never KNEW YOU".


The obviousness of this statement is: if Christ did NOT KNOW THEM, then THEY DIDN'T KNOW Christ. They were simply USING His NAME.


And THAT is EXACTLY what one would expect to SEE from someone READING a book of instructions and MISINTERPRETED what they were READING. They had an IDEA of what they were reading, but in TRUTH, they didn't REALLY understand what they were reading. They MISINTERPRETED what they had read and this led to a FALSE understanding that could only lead to a false PRACTICE.


Each of us is only able to UNDERSTAND what we are able to BEAR. For some that is MUCH, for most that is LITTLE.


What if I gave you instructions for the first two steps in creating antibiotics. What would be the chances of you being able to GUESS your way through the LAST TWELVES STEPS? What YOU would end up with would most likely be POISON. Instead of HELPING those with infections, your 'creation' would end up KILLING THEM instead.


And that is EXACTLY what the 'churches' are DOING. They are offering bits and pieces of the truth yet INSISTING that it is the WHOLE truth. Promising fulfillment when they aren't even able to offer more than the FIRST STEP. And teaching others to FOLLOW in their FOOTSTEPS instead of the footsteps of Christ. Teaching the congregation that it's OK to be a sinner. That ALL we NEED to DO is SAY we believe. We don't NEED to be TRUE followers. Just SAY we BELIEVE and then go out and live the rest of our lives like the 'rest of this world'. Go out and lie and cheat our way through life, all the while living in a state of utter DENIAL, yet professing to place our faith in something GREATER.


Read the words I quoted a FEW TIMES and SEE if you can UNDERSTAND THEM in TRUTH. These aren't RANDOM 'thoughts' of 'the one' so many PROFESS to follow. These are DIRECT instruction from the Son of God. God's Word delivered directly by His only Begotten Son.


Blessings,


MEC
 
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he-man

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I suspect that 'spirit returning unto God' sorta left there soul body here in the Jewish mindset. And not being 'born from above' (acceptable term?) they related more to their corporeal existence. Just thinking, can't support that POV.
Psalm 11:4 The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes everyone on earth; his eyes examine them.

12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

How then could Moses understand God if He is not the God of the Living and the God of the dead when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already in the grave?

"I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God
oh oh I have a whole theology concerning "The book of the life of the lamb" not founded on the one you are trying to support. Sorry, sure not a one screen rebuttal, this one.
That is from the OT Deu 18:15 How then, could Moses know that God would raise up anyone and write about the Resurrected Jesus?? It is apparent that you do not know the Song of Moses.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Thus Moses declared his willingness&#8212;nay, his wish&#8212;that God would visit on him the guilt of his people, both in this world and the next, so that he would thereupon forgive them. [The Pulpit]
Pretty good one. But not uncrackable IMO. Those who were risen from the graves at the crucifixion of Jesus we have no record of concerning how they finished their lives before dying again prior to Danny's 400 being 'up'.
That is because no one has yet risen from the grave but Jesus Christ. Not even David.

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Tell me who sent the firey serpents and what was the purpose of it? Isn't it strange that God would use the likeness of a Snake to heal all who looked at it?
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery<G8313> serpents <G5175> among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
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This peculiar method of cure was designed, in the first instance, to show that it was the efficacy of God&#8217;s power and grace, not the effect of nature or art, and also that it might be a type of the power of faith in Christ to heal all who look to Him because of their sins [JFB]

Spiritually, therefore, we have in this passage Christ lifted up upon the cross in the likeness of sinful flesh in order to save from the deadly virus of sin and from eternal death all those who will raise the eye of faith to him [PULPIT]
 
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Imagican

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I haven't abandoned this thread, just letting a 'couple of people' 'air out' their differences concerning ANOTHER subject.

So let me start with this:

I am NOT here to 'hurt' ANYONE'S feelings. But I also am not willing to sacrifice the TRUTH to KEEP from hurting anyone's feelings. In truth, how people FEEL about me or the words I offer is way down the list of things I believe are IMPORTANT. I AM 'the guy' that would tell you if you had a bugger hanging from your nose or a chuck of what you had for lunch stuck to your tie. For I am a FIRM believer that it's BETTER to DO what is BEST regardless of 'being the ONE' that may end up HURTING someone's FEELINGS. It's CALLED HONESTY or TRUTHFULNESS. Sometimes it HURTS. Just like going to the Doctor or Dentist, sometimes, (most times), it involves something that HURTS.

But isn't it TIME for us to be HONEST with ourselves if we TRULY seek what Christ offered? If we REALLY want to be forgiven, isn't it TIME that we learn to FORGIVE? And if we DESIRE 'life', isn't it TIME that we abandon the practices of those wishing for DEATH? Instead of trying to FOOL other people into believing we are 'someone different', isn't it TIME that we BECOME 'different people'?

I can PROMISE anyone READING this that once one is able to be honest with themselves, then what is offered in the Bible becomes MUCH easier to understand and accept.

But if one chooses to LIE to themselves and others, PRETENDING to be something that they are NOT, then ALL they are going to gain from the Bible is what they are willing NOT to skip over or ALTER to suit themselves.

For that is the nature of the FLESH. It does what benefits ITSELF the MOST so far as DESIRE is concerned. And in choosing this path, it is capable of MAKING up whatever it desires in order to justify itself. It is amazing what some people will SAY in order to try and justify themselves. And it is JUST as amazing to listen to the interpretation of the Bible as offered by SOME. And it only takes the most basic understanding to literally SEE what it is that INFLUENCES their interpretation.

For some it is MONEY. They will do whatever it takes to HIDE themselves from the instruction of the Bible concerning MONEY. Deny, alter, ignore, pretend, there are literally NO END to the MEANS that some will go to in order to HIDE from the TRUTH of what they Bible offers concerning MAMMON.

And forgiveness is another subject that MOST will do their very BEST to avoid in TRUTH. Convincing themselves that it's OK to hold grudges against ANYONE that has done something that deserves their anger, hate or animosity.

I opened this thread for ONE REASON: While I HEAR many professing to be BELIEVERS, in my experience I have met FEW who's WORKS would reflect what it is that they PROFESS to believe.

Yet the Bible TELLS US that IF we are TRUE 'believers', what we DO will REFLECT what we BELIEVE.

So that means that if one's WORKS do NOT reflect what one SAYS they BELIEVE, then they are just USING the WORD. They are simply SAYING they 'believe' but in TRUTH, don't BELIEVE enough to be FOLLOWERS of what they SAY.

And I believe THESE words sum up EXACTLY WHAT AND WHO I am referring to:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Yeah, I could join the rest of the forum and sit around typing cute and FUN stuff. Pretending that it's MORE important to be 'politically correct' and say NOTHING that has ANY potential to offend ANYONE.



But I don't BELIEVE that one is capable of OVERCOMING without KNOWLEDGE of what it IS that they are to be overcoming. And I DON'T believe in CLAIMING to be a follower of something I don't even UNDERSTAND.


We are instructed to FOLLOW in TRUTH and Spirit. And it is an IMPOSSIBILITY that everyone is FOLLOWING in EITHER if each has a DIFFERENT understanding. That means: AT BEST, there can ONLY be ONE who is following in truth in a ROOM FULL of people who ALL have DIFFERENT beliefs. AT BEST. It is JUST as LIKELY that the WHOLE ROOM is lacking in an understanding of the TRUTH.


I offer what I offer in the HOPES of being able to get through to a FEW. Those that have made up their minds to ignore the truth and make up what they WANT to believe are pretty much irrelevant. While I WISH that ALL were able to bear the truth, the TRUTH IS, only FEW will ever even TRY. They will make up their OWN minds about what they WANT the truth to be and then run with it for their entire lives. Insisting to any who are willing to listen that THEY KNOW the truth when THE truth is the furthest thing from their MINDS or hearts. Hoping to FOOL other people into believing as they do, for WHO wants to be ALONE on the path to destruction. Much easier to swallow when one has a BUNCH of company. Marching BY ONESELF down that path to the 'death room' is not nearly as comfortable as walking with a CROWD. And heck, get the right people in the crowd and they will be able to convince everyone that they are simply 'marching to chow'. Convince everyone that there is something GOOD at the end of the hallway.


Matthew 7:


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


That is ONE thing NO ONE here is able to honestly accuse ME of. For I have certainly NOT approached ANY OF YOU with 'sheep's clothing' in order to try and make you believe I am ANY SORT OF SAINT.


Blessings,


MEC
 
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Hillsage

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And that is WHY we MUST rely upon the Holy Spirit's 'guidance and conviction' in order to UNDERSTAND what is written within it's pages.
MEC
You do realize that Perplexed appears to be abiding to the MOD's admonishment that; "only orthodox and unorthodox Christians" may post here, don't you? He professed to be "agnostic, if not truly atheist". So don't waste a bunch of time expecting a rebuttal. ;)

PS I'm not even reading your posts, since me and he-man's "airing", keeps me more busy than I even care to be.
 
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The Conductor

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Well, if we've all been duped, I probably shouldn't listen to you. You might not love Jesus enough. I mean, if we've all got interpretations that let us live in our own fantasy world, then I'd rather live in my fantasy, where the church of the Augsburg confession is the inheritor of all true doctrine, as expounded throughout the ages by the church catholic, and I am freely justified by the merits of Christ, than your fantasy, where we're all just duped and the truth can't be known except by you, because you are the chosen one who finally knows that everyone is wrong. (Actually, you're just the best postmodernist amongst us.)
 
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Hillsage

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How then could Moses understand God if He is not the God of the Living and the God of the dead when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already in the grave?
He understood the OT 'grace and law' God, Jehovah. He did not understand the 'kingdom of God' "grace and truth" god as manifested by Jesus. Truly, that kingdom was not even visible or enterable until after being born-again/from above (Now, is either then acceptable?) according to John, and the new covenant.

How then, could Moses know that God would raise up anyone and write about the Resurrected Jesus?? It is apparent that you do not know the Song of Moses.
Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken
MAT 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The question is asked because neither they, nor Moses had a 'bright' OT answer back then, for what Moses spoke prophetically as a "shadow of things to come" were so, even unto him, as a prophet.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Thus Moses declared his willingness&#8212;nay, his wish&#8212;that God would visit on him the guilt of his people, both in this world and the next, so that he would thereupon forgive them. [The Pulpit]
That is because no one has yet risen from the grave but Jesus Christ. Not even David.
Not according to my 'a fore noted paradigm'....;)


And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Tell me who sent the firey serpents and what was the purpose of it? Isn't it strange that God would use the likeness of a Snake to heal all who looked at it?
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery<G8313> serpents <G5175> among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
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This peculiar method of cure was designed, in the first instance, to show that it was the efficacy of God&#8217;s power and grace, not the effect of nature or art, and also that it might be a type of the power of faith in Christ to heal all who look to Him because of their sins [JFB]

Spiritually, therefore, we have in this passage Christ lifted up upon the cross in the likeness of sinful flesh in order to save from the deadly virus of sin and from eternal death all those who will raise the eye of faith to him [PULPIT]
OK brother, brother, brother....Answer? answer? answer?. I admit, YOU GOT ME. Don't gloat just yet though. ;) I have no idea what you're saying with all that. :sorry: Kudos for length, I knew you could do it. :thumbsup: I'm still spending too much time on CF though. So don't make me just start seeing RED by not answering repeated questions. :p
 
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Imagican

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Oh wow, yes I see it now! That example can be compared equally with two Christains that disagree with whether Jesus is God or not. ^_^

Now I understand, maybe not logically why, because like the above example it is not logical. Someone saying they knew a Catholic who alledgedly practiced Voodoo represents a Catholic who does not agree with other Catholics when the Church forbids it is illogical. It does not represent disagreement on beliefs, it represents a Catholic who wrong in what they say or do.

Instead of just be wrong about something (like the Westboro nutjobs), it seems that it is assumed everyone is right in whatever they want to believe and the difference just represents disagreement. If that is the case and the way the OP is looking at the entire spectrum of individual human faith, then yes I can see how someone could say no two believers hold the same beliefs. Not everyone likes PB&J for example.

I see YOU saw the same misconception as I, so far as what you replied to Josephus

But Doc, the examples are RAMPANT. Mafioso members CLAIM to be Catholics and according all the books I have read and movies I have watched, the Catholic Church ACCEPTS them as MEMBERS of the Catholic Church.

But to set your mind at ease, I only USED 'a' particular example. I could offer THOUSANDS just from what I have experienced and learned in my ONE lifetime. THOUSANDS.

Almost the ENTIRE GROUP of those living SOUTH of the US border are practicing a form of Catholocism that INCLUDES their PREVIOUS PAGAN BELIEFS. They are Catholic/PAGANS but the Church ACCEPTS this so long as they claim to be Catholics FIRST. The Church may publicly SAY they are opposed to such methods of worship, but they ACCEPT them nevertheless.

Every time we see the claims of SEEING the 'vigin Mary's' FACE on a loaf of bread or 'statues crying blood', it COMES from the people I have referenced. Those of Mexico, Central or South America.

And I ask YOU: How MANY of these instances does the 'Roman Catholic Church' ACCEPT as AUTHENTIC. You give your answer but I'll offer MINE as well: NONE. The RCC accepts NONE as AUTHENTIC. Yet BOTH these GROUPS claim a COMMON belief and acceptance of the SAME religion. Yet ONE group PLAINLY recognizes the Fallacy of the other in it's CLAIMS. This is NOT MUTUAL AGREEMENT on BELIEF. This is at BEST, a common understanding and belief in only CERTAIN aspects of this 'religion'. Obviously those that are SEEING statues bleed or CLAIMING to have seen this is NOT in agreement with the REST of the 'Church'. For the REST of the 'Church' does NOT accept such claims as AUTHENTIC.

And how does one CLAIM to be a Catholic that has been KICKED out of the 'Church'? To the 'church', they are NO LONGER Catholic. But to the one that makes such claims, (you know, like after a divorce or any other reason that the 'Church' deems fit to 'excommunicate one of it's members), are they REALLY any LESS Catholic AFTER a divorce than they were BEFORE? I mean one's BELIEFS are one's BELIEFS regardless of whether they DIVORCE or NOT.

And how do you explain one that BELIEVES as the Catholic Church TEACHES that would consider DIVORCE to start with? If the person didn't BELIEVE in divorce, how would they choose THAT as their solution?

Once again, I have discussed theology with MORE Catholics than any other denomination over the years. And I have YET to find TWO that are in complete agreement on what it is that they BELIEVE. Even here on this very forum, when the concept of 'trinity' is discussed, a Catholic is JUST as prone to correct a Catholic on their beliefs of this issue as a NON trinitarian is likely to DISAGREE.

You may well find TWO individuals that are completely IGNORANT of what they CLAIM to believe in and follow so far as the Catholic Church is concerned. But the TRUTH is, when it comes down to the intricate details, most aren't even able to CONTEMPLATE whether they agree or disagree for the simple FACT of ignorance. MOST Catholics don't even KNOW what it IS that they CLAIM to believe in and FOLLOW. At least this has been MY EXPERIENCE when discussing Catholic issues WITH those claiming to be Catholic.

I have a Jewish friend, (by birth), who knows MUCH LESS about Judaism than I DO. And I am NOT a JEW. He gathers with his family for 'holy days' and such, but doesn't know hardly ANYTHING about Jewish HISTORY or what those following Judaism BELIEVE.

I have found it to be basically the SAME with those CLAIMING to be Catholics. Little if ANY difference.

I have encountered a FEW on forums that actually have a BIT of intricate knowledge of Catholocism, but in general LIFE, as I have experienced it, I have found NONE that actually KNOW what it is that they CLAIM to FOLLOW. Not ONE that can answer simple questions about their OWN religion. And the one's that TRY end up offering something different than everyone else.

So you are not dealing with someone just TALKING. You are dealing with someone that has spent MANY years studying and witnessing what is going on around me. And PLEASE don't try and turn my HONESTY into some personal AGENDA against the Catholic Church. I have NO REASON to 'pick on' ANYONE. I have placed us ALL in the 'same boat' INCLUDING myself.

But I'll defend my words if you force the issue. Your attempt to place YOUR 'church' and what YOU believe in a DIFFERENT light doesn't ADD UP. YOUR 'religion' is JUST as fraught with those that have DIFFERENT beliefs about the SAME religion as ANY other from MY experience. You have simply chosen to either IGNORE the fact or deny it. Makes no difference one way or the other. I have offered what I have offered in TRUTH. No DESIRE to fool YOU or anyone else. I have offered these things in the HOPES that they may be able to OPEN THE EYES of SOME. Not ALL. For MOST live in a constant state of denial and that is the ONLY way they are able to live with themselves or anyone else.

As just ONE example of how YOUR beliefs are INCOMPLETE about your OWN religion, I have a couple of questions for YOU to answer everyone following this thread:

Where in the Bible does the Catholic Church CLAIM they have been instructed to be CELIBATE? And WHERE in the Bible does the Catholic Church CLAIM they are instructed to worship MARY as the Queen of Heaven.

You see, you are STUCK in a 'religion' that CAN'T answer these questions. Because there is NO SUCH INSTRUCTION in the Bible. These are merely TRADITIONS that can't even be explained. Yet they are CORE beliefs in this 'religion'. And I could ask DOZENS more that you could not answer as well. If you can't ANSWER the question, how do you FOLLOW such BELIEFS in TRUTH?

So if there IS NO ANSWER, then such answers are OPEN to INTERPRETATION according to EACH that TRIES to answer them. And THAT IS WHY no TWO people can come to agreement ON THEM. There is NO ANSWER according to the Word. These are 'beliefs' developed OUTSIDE of the Word. So the chances of there being ANY validity or TRUTH involved with the practicing is about as likely as finding any TWO people that are in agreement concerning them.

And it is this way with ALL 'religions' that I have encountered that CLAIM to be followers of God through Christ.

And I have THESE words to BACK UP my conclusion as well:

Matthew 7:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Hmmmm...........WHO would do ANYTHING in the 'name of Christ' other than a CHURCH? A GROUP of those PROFESSING to be FOLLOWERS? Yet MANY will be told by Christ Himself that HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW THEM. If He didn't or doesn't KNOW THEM, they certainly don't KNOW HIM. They were or ARE simply USING His NAME. For their OWN designs and benefits. NOT from actually being TRUE FOLLOWERS.


I didn't approach this subject LIGHTLY. They aren't just RANDOM thoughts or ideas. It is an accumulation of MANY YEARS of experience. The results of MUCH study and prayer.


And Doc, I typed this post days ago. I started to 'let it go'. But I figure you and I kind of go back a ways and I consider you to be 'a big boy' who is plenty capable of defending himself and what he believes. So I am quite sure you can 'handle it' without taking it personal. For it is NOT MEANT to elicit any sort of personal response. I am simply offering what I KNOW to be the truth from what I have experienced. Not making anything up and not pretending in any way. I have simply offered what I have experienced.


Blessings,


MEC
 
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DrBubbaLove

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But Doc, the examples are RAMPANT. Mafioso members CLAIM to be Catholics and according all the books I have read and movies I have watched, the Catholic Church ACCEPTS them as MEMBERS of the Catholic Church.
Then some are not paying close enough attention. BTW it would be considered rude and unChristian to embarrass someone like John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi publically. Just because someone claims to be a faithful <whatever> it does not follow that it is true that they are or that their life represents that.
ButAlmost the ENTIRE GROUP of those living SOUTH of the US border are practicing a form of Catholocism that INCLUDES their PREVIOUS PAGAN BELIEFS. They are Catholic/PAGANS but the Church ACCEPTS this so long as they claim to be Catholics FIRST. The Church may publicly SAY they are opposed to such methods of worship, but they ACCEPT them nevertheless.
And did Jesus "ACCEPT" the sinners or throw them out of His midst?
Every time we see the claims of SEEING the 'vigin Mary's' FACE on a loaf of bread or 'statues crying blood', it COMES from the people I have referenced. Those of Mexico, Central or South America.

And I ask YOU: How MANY of these instances does the 'Roman Catholic Church' ACCEPT as AUTHENTIC.
Zero that I am aware of. It is the media that makes such things a spectacle, not the Church.
You give your answer but I'll offer MINE as well: NONE. The RCC accepts NONE as AUTHENTIC. Yet BOTH these GROUPS claim a COMMON belief and acceptance of the SAME religion. Yet ONE group PLAINLY recognizes the Fallacy of the other in it's CLAIMS. This is NOT MUTUAL AGREEMENT on BELIEF. This is at BEST, a common understanding and belief in only CERTAIN aspects of this 'religion'. Obviously those that are SEEING statues bleed or CLAIMING to have seen this is NOT in agreement with the REST of the 'Church'. For the REST of the 'Church' does NOT accept such claims as AUTHENTIC.
Exactly, which proves my point. Such people doing such things DO NOT represent a Catholic who disagrees with what other Catholics believe. Such people represent Catholics who have erred in such thinking. Just as you state, a person claiming to be faithful to some body of beliefs yet obviously acting or speaking against those beliefs is lying to themselves and others.
And how does one CLAIM to be a Catholic that has been KICKED out of the 'Church'? To the 'church', they are NO LONGER Catholic. But to the one that makes such claims, (you know, like after a divorce or any other reason that the 'Church' deems fit to 'excommunicate one of it's members), are they REALLY any LESS Catholic AFTER a divorce than they were BEFORE? I mean one's BELIEFS are one's BELIEFS regardless of whether they DIVORCE or NOT.
Am unaware of anyone being excommunicated or "kicked out" for being divorced. Excommunications are rare and generally reserved for blantant acts by those in public eye, and AFTER they have been privately (and repeatedly) rebuked and asked to correct the issue. Patience is also suppose to be a Christian virtue.
And how do you explain one that BELIEVES as the Catholic Church TEACHES that would consider DIVORCE to start with? If the person didn't BELIEVE in divorce, how would they choose THAT as their solution?
Why stop at divorce? How does one explain any Christain that sins?
We are all sinners. That fact does not mean the person who sins is not Catholic, it just means they need to do something about that sin in their life.
Once again, I have discussed theology with MORE Catholics than any other denomination over the years.
Well am not sure what to believe now as earlier it was said to be two, that were a couple (as in relationship). Regardless what one represented as them telling others what Catholic believed contained blantant errors when compared to what is in the Catechism. So while one may have dicussed at great lengths particular issues with this couple they do not sound like a very reliable source for what a faithful Catholic is suppose to believe.
And I have YET to find TWO that are in complete agreement on what it is that they BELIEVE.
Well given some here think when to eat or not eat a sin offering is on the same level with what is a group of Christians is to believe is True about God for example, am not sure what this statement really means. Some Catholics disagree about when we should bow - that is a trivial matter of tradition (little t) - for example. That is not proof of disagreemnet about "CORE beliefs.
Even here on this very forum, when the concept of 'trinity' is discussed, a Catholic is JUST as prone to correct a Catholic on their beliefs of this issue as a NON trinitarian is likely to DISAGREE.
Again the Catechism is quite clear on what the Trinity Doctrine is and what it means. It is also not a simple concept, at least not when contemplating the fuller meanings of it. So the fact one orthodox may "correct" another only means one of them is wrong - it does not follow that the Trinity Doctrine has many different meanings or understandings. And that is true whether one speaking of any Catholic or of any orthodox. The fact many may not be able correctly express principles of that Doctrine every time they write something on an internet forum also does not make one's case. It simply means they err, which we all do.
You may well find TWO individuals that are completely IGNORANT of what they CLAIM to believe in and follow so far as the Catholic Church is concerned. But the TRUTH is, when it comes down to the intricate details, most aren't even able to CONTEMPLATE whether they agree or disagree for the simple FACT of ignorance. MOST Catholics don't even KNOW what it IS that they CLAIM to believe in and FOLLOW. At least this has been MY EXPERIENCE when discussing Catholic issues WITH those claiming to be Catholic.
And I admitted in my first reply that such Catholics exist. Did Jesus deny the faith of little children?
The ignorance is appalling in adults, whether they are Catholic are not. In their knowledge they are like little children. But if their faith is sincere, I think God can forgive ignorance. And in my experience, like a parent would be with a child, the correction is no harsh and requires patients.
I have a Jewish friend, (by birth), who knows MUCH LESS about Judaism than I DO. And I am NOT a JEW. He gathers with his family for 'holy days' and such, but doesn't know hardly ANYTHING about Jewish HISTORY or what those following Judaism BELIEVE.
There is a story/legend of a vision Saint Thomas Aquinas had regarding the quest for truth/knowledge regarding the Trinity Doctrine in fact. As I recall the message was all the works/efforts he had done his "knowing" everything was as impossible as the boy on the beach trying to empty the ocean into a hole in the sand.
So you are not dealing with someone just TALKING. You are dealing with someone that has spent MANY years studying and witnessing what is going on around me. And PLEASE don't try and turn my HONESTY into some personal AGENDA against the Catholic Church. I have NO REASON to 'pick on' ANYONE. I have placed us ALL in the 'same boat' INCLUDING myself.
well ok, but one did say some pretty harsh and false things about the Church. Regardless, my point remains that what one has witnessed are not examples of what one claims. They are examples of ignorance, being child like and people just being wrong.

Am not going to know everything I am suppose to believe/know as a Catholic, but I know where to go to find out and that source is cross-referenced with the Bible. The fact some Catholics will not bother to make that effort does not prove that no two Catholics believe the same thing. It does prove people are people. I hope no one looks at everything I say/do as 100% right with the Church because I know I fail, can be wrong, make mistakes, sin, and be in err. And the Church teaches me what to do about that.
But I'll defend my words if you force the issue. Your attempt to place YOUR 'church' and what YOU believe in a DIFFERENT light doesn't ADD UP. YOUR 'religion' is JUST as fraught with those that have DIFFERENT beliefs about the SAME religion as ANY other from MY experience. You have simply chosen to either IGNORE the fact or deny it. Makes no difference one way or the other. I have offered what I have offered in TRUTH. No DESIRE to fool YOU or anyone else. I have offered these things in the HOPES that they may be able to OPEN THE EYES of SOME. Not ALL. For MOST live in a constant state of denial and that is the ONLY way they are able to live with themselves or anyone else.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I have a much more positive outlook and also generally give people the benefit of doubt, which includes the benefit of being human - which includes the right to be wrong and make mistakes.
As just ONE example of how YOUR beliefs are INCOMPLETE about your OWN religion, I have a couple of questions for YOU to answer everyone following this thread:

Where in the Bible does the Catholic Church CLAIM they have been instructed to be CELIBATE?
Am not aware the Church makes such a claim. They would say both our Lord and Saint Paul clearly indicating complete chastity, (as in remaining a virgin), is higher calling than the opposite and one that is fitting (IOW a good thing) for those who choose to set themselves apart for a life of ministry. Futhermore since the same Church allows exception - (a converted married minister becomes a Priest in New Orleans Diocese I believe for just ONE example) am unclear why one thinks this unsupported claim about the Church is true, except perhaps one of those Catholics friends said so (they were wrong). In the RC it is the norm because that is our tradition (little T) and because the Church beleives it is fitting that it be so. From the Catechism - note the word NORMALLY.
In the Latin Church the sacrament of Holy Orders for the presbyterate is normally conferred only on candidates who are ready to embrace celibacy freely and who publicly manifest their intention of staying celibate for the love of God’s kingdom and the service of men.

And WHERE in the Bible does the Catholic Church CLAIM they are instructed to worship MARY as the Queen of Heaven.
That claim can only be found in written source in Jack Chic tracts. The title however is fitting for the Mother of God and Mary in the greeting given Her by the angel before she said anything indicates a very special person. And if by worship one means Catholics give something to someone that they should only be giving to God alone, well that would be a sin - and clearly so as it is against something we call the 1st of ten commandments.
You see, you are STUCK in a 'religion' that CAN'T answer these questions.
As those questions have been answered, am not stuck in anything.
Because there is NO SUCH INSTRUCTION in the Bible. These are merely TRADITIONS that can't even be explained. Yet they are CORE beliefs in this 'religion'. And I could ask DOZENS more that you could not answer as well. If you can't ANSWER the question, how do you FOLLOW such BELIEFS in TRUTH?
Well the truth is online for all to see, no need to believe me and certainly no need to believe false claims or Jack Chic tracts. A tradition (small t), like celibacy for higher orders is not a "CORE belief". If it were then we could not have examples of married Priests, yet we do. These things have explanation. Just because some have not bothered to ask the right people or look in the right places, it does not follow there is no answer.
So if there IS NO ANSWER, then such answers are OPEN to INTERPRETATION according to EACH that TRIES to answer them.
No, and if a Catholic says that they are simply wrong, as Nancy Pelosi and Kerry are about abortion for example. The Truths that Catholics are suppose to hold to are NOT open to interpretation. And being Catholic is about a submission to the teaching Authority(that is not a person or persons BTW) given the Church, such that even if one does not understand or even if one finds something difficult to accept - we are suppose to humbly submit that thing is still True none the less. Again refusing to do that means that person is not being a faithful Catholic.
Hmmmm...........WHO would do ANYTHING in the 'name of Christ' other than a CHURCH? A GROUP of those PROFESSING to be FOLLOWERS? Yet MANY will be told by Christ Himself that HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW THEM. If He didn't or doesn't KNOW THEM, they certainly don't KNOW HIM. They were or ARE simply USING His NAME. For their OWN designs and benefits. NOT from actually being TRUE FOLLOWERS.
Exactly my point about a Catholic politician claiming there is nothing wrong with their stance on abortion. Claiming something to be so is not the same as it being so. Just because someone says they are a faithful Catholic does not make it so anymore than someone claiming to "know Him" means they really "knows Him".
I didn't approach this subject LIGHTLY. They aren't just RANDOM thoughts or ideas. It is an accumulation of MANY YEARS of experience. The results of MUCH study and prayer.
Appreciate your sincerity and sorry but I do get touchy/defensive of the Church.

I do think the idea that every Christian is going to be (or should be) right on everything 100% of the time is flawed. We are imperfect and imperfect beings make mistakes.
 
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he-man

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#159 I see YOU saw the same misconception as I, so far as what you replied to Josephus MEC
That is more than one page you are complaining about in my post to you. Let's not be hypoctitical. now!
He understood the OT 'grace and law' God, Jehovah. He did not understand the 'kingdom of God' "grace and truth" god as manifested by Jesus. Truly, that kingdom was not even visible or enterable until after being born-again/from above (Now, is either then acceptable?) according to John, and the new covenant.MAT 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The question is asked because neither they, nor Moses had a 'bright' OT answer back then, for what Moses spoke prophetically as a "shadow of things to come" were so, even unto him, as a prophet. Not according to my 'a fore noted paradigm'....;)
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I place Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet."
Mark 12:36 &#948;&#945;&#948; &#949;&#1010;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#948;&#945;&#948; &#949;&#953;&#960;&#949;&#957; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#969; &#960;&#957;&#953; &#964;&#969; &#945;&#947;&#953;&#969; &#949;&#953;&#960;&#949; &#959; &#954;&#962; &#964;&#969; &#954;&#969; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#965; &#949;&#954; &#948;&#949;&#958;&#953;&#969;&#957; &#956;(&#959;&#965;) &#949;&#969;&#962; &#945;&#957; &#952;&#969; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#949;&#967;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#963;&#959;&#965; &#971;&#960;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#948;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#960;&#959;&#948;&#969;

37 Then David himself calls him Lord. And from where is he his son? And the large crowd heard Him gladly.
37 &#963;&#959;&#965; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#948;&#945;&#948; &#955;&#949;&#947;&#949;&#953; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#959;&#952;&#949;&#957; &#965;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#949;&#963;&#964;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#959;&#955;&#965;&#962; &#959;&#967;&#955;&#959;&#962;

How strange it is that Moses was not allowed into the Holy Land not even to be buried there to emphasize that he had not yet received the inheritance God had promised!

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

By faith Abel; By faith Enoch; By faith Noah,; By faith Abraham; By faith Isaac; By faith Jacob; By faith Joseph; By faith Moses; Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Moses&#8217; death, at the end of the Pentateuch in Deuteronomy 34. It flatly contradicts the pattern of expectation that the biblical narrative had accustomed us to, namely, that promises would be fulfilled and lives would reach closure.

For Moses is not allowed to die in, let alone enter, the land promised to Israel already in patriarchal days&#8212;the land that he had been divinely commanded to return Israel to, without any indication, initially, that he would be barred from it (so Exodus 3, 6:2&#8211;9).

Indeed, at the end Moses cannot even be buried in the promised land, as key patriarchal figures had been, including Jacob and Joseph, who had died outside of Israel (Genesis 49:29&#8211;50:14, 24&#8211;26; Joshua 24:32&#8211;33). Rather, Moses dies and is buried outside of the land, across the Jordan River in Moab, a region otherwise often at odds with Israel; and he is buried in a spot unknown, placed there not even by human hands, but by God alone.
(This essay is a revised version of one originally published in the Harvard Divinity Bulletin 27:2/3 (1998); copyright the president and fellows of Harvard College)

 
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But the 'churches' won't teach you this. They want you to keep coming back. And if they EVER started TEACHING the TRUTH, no one would. For once one is Able to come to the TRUTH, they will recognize just how CHILDISH the 'churches' truly ARE. Not even capable of teaching the congregation to CRAWL, much less walk or RUN.

I think this is an unwarranted judgement. One that is written within the limited exposure you have to the Body of Messiah. Yes, I said limited. You have no right to make this kind off judgement against all churches. No doubt you can point to some examples in your experience, but please avoid generalizing, else you could be very well duped into believing that churches as a whole do not teach life changing truth.
 
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