Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20 (2)

Interplanner said in post 198:

As I recall, one of the signs Josephus mentioned (and he was hesitant to mention any) was a 'sword in the air' over Jerusalem. Rev 6:4?

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The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to counter Islamic extremists such as ISIS/ISIL from taking over Iraq and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to keep ISIS/ISIL under control, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform, for they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It is all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and -advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Bible2 said:

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

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I don't see anything in the Revelation about a nuclear war. They were still using chariots, horses and swords. The only thing that matches the slaughter in the land of Judaea and the Roman Empire (the "entire earth" in those days) was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The time theme of the Revelation was imminent fulfillment, beginning in the first verse and chapter:



Fifteen hundred years prior to the arrival of Christ, Moses prophesied of the last days, with this dire warning to the children of Israel:


Christ ministered on earth during the last days, and the day of Pentecost occurred in the last days:



Moses also prophesied of the cannibalism that would eventually occur inside Jerusalem during the horrendous famine that was precipitated by the civil war, and compounded by the subsequent Roman army siege. That was confirmed by Josephus in his famous work, "Wars of the Jews". This is Moses:


The famine inside the city was intense because three competing factions (Rev 16:19) had burnt up each others food supplies in their attempts to control the large city.

So when you read the about the dreaded Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, keep in mind that they were all 1st century events. Jesus broke the seals shortly after he was resurrected (Rev 5 to 8).

This is my take on the four horsemen:

1) The first seal represents Christ and his Church. Christ was sitting on a white horse (white is shown as righteousness in other parts of the book.) Christ is wearing a crown, and he has been conquering till this day (though Satan has played havoc on the Church since he was released from prison about a century ago).

2) The second seal with its red horse and its rider most likely represents either the children of Satan that control Jerusalem and Judaea who were continually after the Christians, or Nero (the beast) who began his persecution of Christians in AD64; or both. In either case, the color Red represents the beast and Satan in the Revelation.

3) The third seal represents the horrendous famine inside Jerusalem during the civil war and siege, where a measure of wheat could cost a day's wages (a penny or a denarius). The poorer families, and/or those with more children to feed, could purchase three times the amount of cheaper barley for the same day's wages, hence:


The reference to the oil and wine that follows, "see thou hurt not the oil and the wine", most likely represents the sacrilege of the holy oil and wine that was reserved for temple rites. John of Gischala, the leader of the controlling faction in Jerusalem, is said to have done the following. In particular read the last (long highlighted) sentence:


You can read more about John of Gischala beginning here:


John of Gischala could very well have been the Man of Sin the Apostle Paul wrote about. He would certainly give Nero a run for his money in the evil department.

4) The fourth seal, which shows a pale horse whose rider was Death, seems to represent Nero, who did all those things listed, including covering Christians with animal skins and throwing them to the dogs to be slaughtered:


Nero personified evil. His persecution of Christians lasted three and one-half years (forty and two months), beginning in the latter part of '64 and ended on June 9, '68 when he committed suicide under threat of arrest. The exact starting date is unknown, but the time is approximately forty and two months, as prophesied:


Nero had power over the entire earth in those days as ruler of the Roman Empire; but his persecution did not extend over the entire empire, which helps explain this phrase regarding the fourth horseman:

.

One other point: the first chapter of the Revelation also reveals that John was seeing visions of the present and future, and, as the text reveals, the past:


Chapters 5 and 12 refer to the resurrection of Christ, but from different perspectives. In the epistles to THE Seven Churches of Asia, in chapters 3 and 4, there are many references to "he that overcomes this" and "he that overcomes that", etc.. But chapter 5 claims that Christ was the only one who "overcame" in the heaven, earth, and under the earth, which I suspect covers all creation. No one else kept His works until the end (it was impossible), fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah:



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All this will come on this (1st century) generation, Mt 23.

Rev20 said in post 202:

Rev 1:1

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In Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a 1st century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Rev20 said in post 202:

Christ ministered on earth during the last days . . .

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That's right, for the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

Rev20 said in post 202:

The first seal represents Christ and his Church.

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Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

Rev20 said in post 202:

. . . Nero (the beast)

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Note that Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew gematria added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers that he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

Rev20 said in post 202:

John of Gischala could very well have been the Man of Sin the Apostle Paul wrote about.

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Note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off of the Ark, showing the Ark to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 6 more men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. All the men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying on a purple pillow a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched arms, and as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. Worship me, all ye nations of the earth!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Interplanner said in post 203:

All this will come on this (1st century) generation, Mt 23.

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Note that if Matthew 23:36 refers to 70 AD, it can't refer to the same, temporal generation as Matthew 24:34, for the reasons given in the last 2 sections of post 192, and in the last section of post 195.

Bible2 said:

In Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

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I see. A message from Christ to show his SERVANTS what must shortly come to pass must be considered from the viewpoint of God, and not the servants who must understand it?

I have read many attempts by futurists to explain away the numerous imminent time contexts in the gospels, epistles and the revelation. But, in this case, I agree with you. Since neither you nor I are God, we have no alternative but to let God's Word determine what He means by the word "shortly." Is that okay with you?

Well, there is such a verse! The following passage mentions the Lord being very upset at false prophets of Judah for using the word "shortly" to trick the people into believing they would not be carried away into Babylon:


Those false prophecies and the (later) "carrying away" occurred during the 11 year reign of Zedekiah. Therefore, shortly, in God's viewpoint, means less than 11 years!

If God's viewpoint on "shortly" was as the futurist's viewpoint on "shortly" (thousands of years) those prophets in Jeremiah 27 would not have been false prophets, since the Babylonian captivity lasted only 70 years. But God did not consider even 70 years as a short time! At the extreme, God was talking about "shortly" being less than 11 years (maybe much less).

In conclusion, using GOD'S VIEWPOINT, as you have demanded that we must, the first verse in the Revelation can be written correctly, and for clarity, as:


All of us appreciate you pointing out and emphasizing the importance of interpreting the scriptures from God's viewpoint, rather than man's.

By the way, many well-versed scholars believe that most of the events in Revelation were fulfilled within a very short time (e.g., less than eleven years) after John received the vision and wrote the book.


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well put Rev 20

Rev.1:1, "shortly" "Swiftly" is not meant, however "soon," - "the period is near" v.3. Even when John received the vision, the times and the seasons remained veiled. The things he saw would occur shortly, the time for them was "near."

How much time would be required before the end would be reached is not intimated here of course. This question will be discussed in Rev.22:7.

Old Jack

btw I have the period beginning at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24.

Bible2 said:

In Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

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Hold on now? You said we should interpret the word, "shortly", from God's viewpoint. I showed you where the scripture plainly states that the word "shortly" means less than 11 years from God's viewpoint. But now it appears you have changed your mind, and are coaxing us to interpret the word "shortly" from a man-made, futurist viewpoint?

I am not buying all that futurist mumbo-jumbo. Christ's viewpoints on time are plain-spoken, and do not require one to jump through all sorts of mythical, man-contrived hoops to understand them.

The second coming of Christ, which was the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, occurred around AD70, during the generation CHRIST said it would occur; not far into the future as futurists claim. This is when it occurred, according to Jesus Christ:


Everything written in the book of Matthew occurred during the generation of Jesus Christ. The same for the other Gospels.

And it was all about the children of ISRAEL! Christ was not sent by the Father to you or me! We "eat the crumbs that fall from the children's table" (Mat 15:27). This is who Christ was sent to:


And Jesus initially sent his disciples only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Only later, in Acts 10, were the Gentiles allowed to be grafted into the "tree":


Jesus gave his disciples specific instructions and warnings:


If anyone believes that Jesus was speaking directly to them, rather than only to his disciples in his day, then that person must, at some time in his/her life, be scourged in the synagogues. Jesus did not say, they might scourge you. He said they WILL!

This statement is the clincher:


Who of us are worthy? Jesus explains:


Fortunately for us, the disciples bore the heavy load.
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So, this we know to be fact:




That last statement, #3, assumes that Christ returned in their lifetimes, or during the lives of some of them:


Christ's instructions to the disciples were no different when they were on mount Olives. Read all of this very carefully. First, the disciples asked him when Jerusalem would be destroyed, when he would come in his kingdom, and when would be the end of the (Jewish or Mosaic) age:


Jesus indicated that the end would occur after this:


Jesus also instructed his disciples in this manner:


We know from the scripture that the words "all the world" meant the Roman Empire:


Thus, from the scriptures, we know that the gospel was preached to "all the world" before Paul was murdered:




Futurists have corrupted the meaning of Christ's instructions to his disciples by demanding that Christ cannot come again until everyone alive today, including every jungle tribe in Borneo or the Amazon, hears the gospel. But Christ did not say that. His instructions only covered the 1st century Roman Empire, as is written. Please do not add your words to the Words of God!


That was fulfilled prior to the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem in 70AD. There were many false christs and prophets in those days, and some, using sorcery, were able to deceive thousands. Josephus lists some of them in his classic book, "Wars of the Jews".

But why then? Why did false christs and prophets show up then?

Because all the Jews were expecting the Messiah to come in their generation due of the predictions of the prophets (most likely, from Daniel 9). For that reason, Jesus gave this warning:


The only logical conclusion is that Christ was not coming back to the earth, but in the clouds of heaven with power, as he said he would:


That logical conclusion does not contradict Acts 1:9-11, which the futurists (including many postmillennialists) have erroneously interpreted to mean Christ will return to the earth again. Read carefully:


They did not say that Jesus would return to the earth exactly as he left the earth. They never mentioned the word "earth". They were exclusively referring to the clouds and heaven.

If that bothers you, keep in mind that Paul said the same thing in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." -- 1Th 4:16-18

Notice that it also says they will not be coming back to the earth ("so shall we ever be--in the clouds").

And when did all this happen? In His generation, as he said all along:

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The first resurrection was not about saving the Church from the great tribulation, as many futurists claim. To the contrary, his Apostles--the foundation of the church--preached until the end, and most were persecuted and/or murdered. But that should come as no surprise. Jesus had warned them that:


Jesus did provide warnings for the other believers, via his disciples, to get out of Judaea before the desolation:


Jesus also provided this warning to the women of Jerusalem that were weeping over him as he walked to his execution:


The prophet Isaiah said that Jesus would declare the day of vengeance:


And what was the reason for the days of vengeance? Jesus made it very clear: it was not the sins of the Catholic church; nor the apostasy of Christianity; nor the evils of some future, mythical "antichrist"; but the present and past sins of Israel from the generation of Christ, and earlier (not later) :


That is the same prediction Jesus gave to his disciples on the mount of Olives for the timing of his second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem:




And which generation was that?



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Rev20 said in post 206:

Jer 27:16

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Note that the "shortly" in Jeremiah 27:16 must he understood from the viewpoint of men, for it was what men were saying, not God. But the "shortly" in Revelation 1:1 is the Word of God, and so it can be understood from his viewpoint, in which a thousand years are like a day (2 Peter 3:8-9).

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Rev20 said in post 209:

The second coming of Christ, which was the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, occurred around AD70 . . .

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Note that the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet. For Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Rev20 said in post 209:

Mat 10:22-23

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Note that nothing requires that the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:5) addressed in Matthew 10:23b preached in every town in 1st century AD Israel before they died, just as Christian preachers today still haven't preached in every town in Israel. For Christian proselytizing is outlawed in Israel today.

Rev20 said in post 209:

Mat 16:27-28

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Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

That is, just as the "power", "coming", and "majesty" in 2 Peter 1:16 refer to the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:17-18, so the "power", "coming", and "kingdom" in Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, and Luke 9:27 refer to the subsequent transfiguration in Mark 9:2-9, Matthew 17:1-9, and Luke 9:28-36.

The transfiguration was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Mark 9:1-9, Luke 9:27-36) in the same sense that Jesus' previous and subsequent casting out of devils was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). That is, such events showed that God's power had come to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ.

Rev20 said in post 209:

Mat 24:3

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Note that the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Rev20 said in post 209:

The only logical conclusion is that Christ was not coming back to the earth . . .

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Rather, Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical, visible return to the earth in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future, 2nd coming to the earth from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

Similarly, Zechariah 14:4 confirms that Jesus will return physically to the earth.

For Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the 2nd-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at his 2nd coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his 1st coming, he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as he left.

Before Jesus returns, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zechariah 14:9), and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the bodily resurrected church will rule the unsaved survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.

Also, Zechariah 14:5a isn't referring (as is sometimes claimed) to the fleeing of people in the church into the mountains, the wilderness (as in Matthew 24:15-16 and Revelation 12:6,14), at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Instead, Zechariah 14:5a is referring to only a post-tribulation, 2nd-coming fleeing of surviving unsaved elect Jews in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5), who will become believers and get saved when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

They could have survived the Antichrist's preceding reign because they were either in hiding or under the protection of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3,5).

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It's sometimes claimed that Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming. But Jesus' 1st coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zechariah 14:1), for that won't begin until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' 1st coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zechariah 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). It will be at his 2nd coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Revelation 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives, just as he had ascended from the Mount of Olives at the end of his 1st coming (Acts 1:11-12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zechariah 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't come with all the saints (Zechariah 14:5b). That will happen only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem was light at night (Zechariah 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean (Zechariah 14:8). And he didn't make himself King over the earth (Zechariah 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zechariah 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zechariah 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zechariah 14:12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zechariah 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zechariah 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zechariah 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the feast of tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zechariah 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zechariah 14:17-19).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zechariah 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zechariah 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zechariah 14:21). Instead, at his 1st coming, Jesus left unbelieving Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Luke 13:35). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:21).

Bible2 said:

Note that the "shortly" in Jeremiah 27:16 must he understood from the viewpoint of men, for it was what men were saying, not God. But the "shortly" in Revelation 1:1 is the Word of God, and so it can be understood from his viewpoint, in which a thousand years are like a day (2 Peter 3:8-9).

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Where are you getting your talking points? I have heard that same argument from futurists in the past (maybe from you), and it is completely unbiblical. Read very carefully and you will see that Jeremiah is quoting the Lord:


This adds more context. Zedekiah reigned for 11 years, and was reigning when Judah was carried away into Babylon:


The scripture is all God's Word. No prophet wrote his own words. Jeremiah was strictly an instrument to convey God's Word to us, as Peter explains:


I recommend you read Jeremiah Chapter 27 very carefully, and consider throwing those unbiblical talking points in the trash where they belong.


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shturt678s said:

Rev.1:1, "shortly" "Swiftly" is not meant, however "soon," - "the period is near" v.3. Even when John received the vision, the times and the seasons remained veiled. The things he saw would occur shortly, the time for them was "near."

How much time would be required before the end would be reached is not intimated here of course. This question will be discussed in Rev.22:7.

Old Jack

btw I have the period beginning at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24.

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Another words, worshipping in spirit and truth?
Ya think the apostate Jews of today will buy that?

Luke 17:
20 Inquired yet by the Pharisees when is coming the kingdom of the God...........
21 neither they shall be declaring 'behold! here or there',
for behold! the Kingdom of the God inside of ye is."

Luke 21:31
"Thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming, ye are knowing that nigh is the Kingdom of the God."

Reve 12:10
And I hear great voice in the Heaven saying "now hath come the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him



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LittleLambofJesus said:

Another words, worshipping in spirit and truth?
Ya think the apostate Jews of today will buy that?

Luke 17:
20 Inquired yet by the Pharisees when is coming the kingdom of the God...........
21 neither they shall be declaring 'behold! here or there',
for behold! the Kingdom of the God inside of ye is."

Luke 21:31
"Thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming, ye are knowing that nigh is the Kingdom of the God."

Reve 12:10
And I hear great voice in the Heaven saying "now hath come the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him



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Ironically I was just speaking with a Jew a few months ago regarding the "Kingdom of Christ" reigns now through the Word in truth...his wife was quietly listening when all the sudden she went off on me where I thought my life was in danger...he didn't say or do anything to help me...I'm more careful when wives are listening...life expectancy sort of thing.

Old Jack's opinion coming back to earth

BTW I even have a way out opinion that the departed Saints are presently reigning in heaven already where we who have the Word in truth and in spirit...not me for sure...also reign in a limited way of course...how far out is that???

shturt678s said in post 213:

I was just speaking with a Jew a few months ago regarding the "Kingdom of Christ" reigns now through the Word in truth...

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Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Bible2 said:

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

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The Kingdom of Christ has an earthly and heavenly side; the earthly side has an exalted heavenly background. To the earthly side belong contrition, faith, baptism, and regeneration, and many things of like nature.

Old Jack

Strong's

5034 // tacov // tachos // takh'-os //

from the same as 5036 ; n n

AV - shortly + 1722 4, quickly + 1722 2, speedily + 1722 1; 7

1) quickness, speed

Vine's ; [SIZE=+1]&lt4,,1722 5034,en tachei> [/SIZE]
see QUICKLY, No. 4.

[SIZE=+1]&lt4,,1722 5034,en tachei> [/SIZE]
lit., "in, or with, swiftness, with speed" (en, "in," and the dative case of tachos, "speed"), is translated "quickly" in Acts 12:7; 22:18; "speedily" in Luke 18:8; "shortly" in Acts 25:4; Rom. 16:20; 1 Tim. 3:14 in some texts; Rev. 1:1; 22:6. In the last two places, "with speed" is probably the meaning. See SHORTLY, SPEEDILY.


The word " shortly " is in fact "with speed" . The end the Hebrew's first “covenant” . Ron , don't intend to nose in .

ron4shua said:

The word " shortly " is in fact "with speed"

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Php 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Anyone here waiting for Timothy's Speedy Arrival?

Paul did say he trusts Jesus will send Timothy to you shortly, right?

ron4shua said:

Strong's

5034 // tacov // tachos // takh'-os //

from the same as 5036 ; n n

AV - shortly + 1722 4, quickly + 1722 2, speedily + 1722 1; 7

1) quickness, speed

Vine's ; [SIZE=+1]&lt4,,1722 5034,en tachei> [/SIZE]
see QUICKLY, No. 4.

[SIZE=+1]&lt4,,1722 5034,en tachei> [/SIZE]
lit., "in, or with, swiftness, with speed" (en, "in," and the dative case of tachos, "speed"), is translated "quickly" in Acts 12:7; 22:18; "speedily" in Luke 18:8; "shortly" in Acts 25:4; Rom. 16:20; 1 Tim. 3:14 in some texts; Rev. 1:1; 22:6. In the last two places, "with speed" is probably the meaning. See SHORTLY, SPEEDILY.


The word " shortly " is in fact "with speed" . The end the Hebrew's first “covenant” . Ron , don't intend to nose in .

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Grammatically you would be correct with your source. Contextually taken with v.3, "the period is near" not so correct my brother.

Old Amill. Jack's opinion

Bible2 said:

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10).

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It doesn't say that, anywhere. The Lord's throne is in heaven, and will always be there:









These are the verses you referenced, and not one verse states the Lord will come to earth to reign:





In fact, Jesus explained to the Samaritan woman at the well that the kingdom is not in any particular place:


For the record, verse 22, in most translations, reads " salvation is of the Jews." But the underlying Greek seems to read, "salvation (deliverance) is of Judah, or Judaea," which makes more sense. The Lord is our only path to salvation and deliverance, and he resides in the heavenly Jerusalem on heavenly mount Zion (Sion) (Heb 12:22-24):


Paul said the remnant of Israel was saved by the Lord coming out of mount Zion:

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This next verse you quoted, Luke 17:21, is misleading to most people because they, or their pastors, take it out of context. At the time Jesus said the following to the Pharisees, the kingdom of God belonged to the old covenant Jews:


But Jesus also said (to the chief priests and elders) that the kingdom would be taken away from them:


That kingdom was taken away from the Jews at or shortly after Christ's resurrection, and before his ascension to the Father. This is the prophecy and fulfillment that highlights that fact:





He sat down in the throne of the kingdom when the Jewish religion, economy, temple and Jerusalem itself were destroyed:





The elect which the angels gathered were the redeemed who Christ raised in the first resurrection (Rev 14:1-5, 20:4-6).
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One fact that is continually ignored by futurists is this:



Jesus rules the vast, endless universe, which includes this very tiny heavenly body we call the earth. The spiritual will understand.


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Rev20 said:

Jesus rules the vast, endless universe, which includes this very tiny heavenly body we call the earth.


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Joy to the World, The Savoir Reigns!