Abomination Of Desolation Is Here- Tomb Of Jonah Destroyed

Aldebaran said:

Can you agree that Christopher Columbus existed? History can be rewritten many times in 238 years.

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We can name Christopher Columbus -- name the twelve.

Blessedj01 said:

The article is totally relevant, you're splitting hairs.

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Not at all, the article contradicts the scripture that you're trying to argue as well. It can't possibly be used to defend your point.

Aldebaran said:

Sure. And it's "only" been 238 years. Wait until it's been over 2,000 years.

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It's been 238 years since what?

Aldebaran said:

Some of those sources may not exist anymore, and maybe so few that people will wonder if he ever existed, or if his story was just an alagory.

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It's been over 2,000 years since Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and we have first person accounts of that. In fact we have contemporary historical sources for numerous events older than that.

If Jesus was real, he would have been the biggest news story in human history. Roman historians would certainly have written about him, and there are a number of contemporary ones who's works survive that would have been in the area at the time of the biblical events. Philo of Alexandria is the most obvious, he was a Jewish Roman historian who lived from 20BC to 50AD, had ties to the royal house in Jerusalem and spent a lot of time in Judea. He literally would have been on scene for everything in the gospel stories, and his entire body of work survives. He wrote nothing about Jesus at all. In fact no contemporary historian who would be expected to know of Jesus mentions a thing (even negatively) about Jesus.

If Jesus had been real, it's unthinkable they wouldn't have written a single word about him. Instead what we have are writings from decades after the fact written by people who were not eyewitnesses.

I'm sorry, the story is not credible.

Aldebaran said:

Some younger people even thought that the Titanic was just a myth or fairy tale when the movie came out. That's what happens when something becomes less real because it happened so long ago...

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Lucky thing ancient history isn't determined by uneducated teenagers in a movie theatre.

Any records of an earth quake and darkening sky over Jerusalem during the questionable date? That would certainly have attracted attention.

Nithavela said:

Any records of an earth quake and darkening sky over Jerusalem during the questionable date? That would certainly have attracted attention.

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Yes: http://carm.org/there-non-biblical-evidence-day-darkness-christs-death

In Luke 23:44-46 there is the record of darkness falling upon the land during Christ's crucifixion. "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit.' And having said this, He breathed His last." Is there any non-biblical evidence of the day of darkness mentioned at Christ's death? The answer is yes, there is.

"Circa AD 52, Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. This work itself has been lost and only fragments of it exist in the citations of others. One such scholar who knew and spoke of it was Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221. In speaking of Jesus’ crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts: 'On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.'"1
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One might wonder why other historians of the time did not also mention the darkness. First of all, the darkness was localized, so it would not be a widespread phenomena that other historians would naturally record. Second, other historians like Pliny, Tacitus, and Josephus generally were focusing on events that could be verified and were not based in the miraculous. The fact that Thallus mentions the darkness tells us that something did happen, and that there is extrabiblical citation for the event.

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Selfcontradictory. First the text asserts that the darkness was around the whole world (or at least the whole known world), then it asserts that the darkness was only very localised.
Thallus wrote 20 years after the fact, that's more than enough to know which parts of the world the darkness was seen in and in which parts it didn't.



Concerning this julius africanus fellow, his "history" also included a calculation of the ages down to christ and the deluge, and discounted the egyptian history, because they weren't modest enough for his liking. He was an early apologetic and his history was written with that aim and, for a good part, copied from the bible.

That's Africanus saying it was over the whole world, not his source material from Thallus, as far as I can tell. The only thing directly attributed to Thallus is his assertion that this event happened, its mention in Thallus' third book of histories, and the idea that it was a solar eclipse.

Originally Posted by Nithavela

Any records of an earth quake and darkening sky over Jerusalem during the questionable date? That would certainly have attracted attention.
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nigheandonn said:

Yes:
Is there non-biblical evidence of a day of darkness at Christ's death? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

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One might wonder why other historians of the time did not also mention the darkness.
First of all, the darkness was localized, so it would not be a widespread phenomena that other historians would naturally record.
Second, other historians like Pliny, Tacitus, and Josephus generally were focusing on events that could be verified and were not based in the miraculous.
The fact that Thallus mentions the darkness tells us that something did happen, and that there is extrabiblical citation for the event.

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Thanks for that link.

When did Christianity start realizing that the darkness at the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus was localized instead of the whole world?

John 7:1
And Jesus was walking in the Galilee after these-things for not He desired to be walking in the Judea,
that Judeans sought to kill Him.
Matthew 27:45
From yet sixth hour darkness became upon all the Land till hour of the ninth.
Luke 23:44
Was yet six hour and darkness became over the whole Land til hour of ninth.
Rom 15:31
Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea
and that the contribution I take to Jerusalem may be favorably received by the Lord's people there,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..........While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children....

The mournful and desolate condition of Judea, at this time, is exactly described by the prophet Isaiah, in the following of his prophecy : "The cities were without inhabitant, and the houses without a man, and the land was utterly desolate, and the LORD had removed men far away, and there was a great forsaking in the midst of the land." (Isa. vi. 11, 12.)



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Aldebaran said:

Oh, and don't forget to bring up the idea that it was a "lucky coincidence" that the eclipse happened right at that moment and that eclipses happened long before that and still happen today.

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There actually couldn't have been a coincidental solar eclipse at that moment because it was a full moon.

This is from 137 AD, later than Thallus' writings, but here's a quote from Greek historian Phlegon: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e., AD 33) there was 'the greatest eclipse of the sun' and that 'it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.'"

Dave Ellis said:

It's been 238 years since what?

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238 years since Christopher Columbus signed the Declaration of Independence, sheesh!

nigheandonn said:

There actually couldn't have been a coincidental solar eclipse at that moment because it was a full moon.

This is from 137 AD, later than Thallus' writings, but here's a quote from Greek historian Phlegon: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e., AD 33) there was 'the greatest eclipse of the sun' and that 'it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.'"

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That is also the hour when Peter fell into a trance and saw the heaven opened in Acts.....

KJV Search Results for "sixth" AND "hour"

Jhn 19:14
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he[Pilate] saith unto the Jews, "Behold your King!"

Act 10:
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten:
but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw the heaven opened!
and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the land



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Dave Ellis said:

Not at all, the article contradicts the scripture that you're trying to argue as well. It can't possibly be used to defend your point.

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It doesn't, you're just being difficult on purpose.

Here's another one in plain English.

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/resurrection/three-days-and-nights/

The so called "contradiction" is not one. Why would the apostles follow something blatantly wrong? Why would Christianity survive?

Millions of people understand what "3 days and nights" mean, except you.

Blessedj01 said:

It doesn't, you're just being difficult on purpose.

Here's another one in plain English.

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/resurrection/three-days-and-nights/

The so called "contradiction" is not one. Why would the apostles follow something blatantly wrong? Why would Christianity survive?

Millions of people understand what "3 days and nights" mean, except you.

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Millions might be able to understand and justify that fuzzy math to make something appear to be prophecy, but Billions of people KNOW just how long three days and three nights is.

nigheandonn said:

Yes: Is there non-biblical evidence of a day of darkness at Christ's death? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

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In addition to Nithavela's post, a solar eclipse is an impossible explanation as only Lunar Eclipses are visible at that time of year (passover).

Lunar eclipses are invisible at mid-day, and couldn't possibly have blacked out the mid-day sun.

Blessedj01 said:

It doesn't, you're just being difficult on purpose.

Here's another one in plain English.

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/resurrection/three-days-and-nights/

The so called "contradiction" is not one. Why would the apostles follow something blatantly wrong? Why would Christianity survive?

Millions of people understand what "3 days and nights" mean, except you.

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The calendar is blatantly wrong on that website. The Jewish day lasts from sunrise to sunset. For whatever reason it decides to start day one at sunset on Thursday (the end of the day before Jesus was crucified) to try to squeeze the timeline in to finish on Sunday.

I hate to tell you, but if you need to count the day before the crucifixion to make the timeline work, then there's an error in the story. That explanation does not line up to the Jewish calendar which was in use at the time.

Aldebaran said:

The Romans had no interest in Him. Why would they have had any interest in making sure to make His presence go down in history? When people don't like history, they change it to say what they want it to: Saving Common Sense: Michelle Obama's Speech on Changing America's History and Traditions

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Then why is there a multitude of writings on far less interesting things than Jesus would have been, including other failed messiahs cult leaders, cults, etc. Also, there's a ton of Roman history concerning rebel leaders, and whatnot as well.

Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. The Romans have no record of intentionally omitting or rewriting history books on a wide scale. The Christians on the other hand, do.

Paul was a Roman who wrote about Christ.

Your argument concerning three days and nights is the silliest, most desperate attempt at clutching at straws that I've seen recently.

...I hope you're not planning on bringing up this "contradiction" with your creator.