The Truth about Yoga

inconsequential · Jul 30, 2014

Would Tai Chi be regarded the same way?

inconsequential · Jul 30, 2014

I haven't done it a lot of tai chi but what I did do seemed like a strict system of controlling your body with no deep spiritual aspect. I never did yoga so I can't really comment on it,but I will go with what the Church recommends.

Dorothea · Jul 30, 2014

yeah, I know the dangers of yoga. I still do some back stretches that are yoga stretches. It helps my back and stress.

Dorothea · Jul 30, 2014

Macarius said:
I might differentiate between "yoga" as a set of stretching and strengthening exercises, and Yoga as a spiritual discipline (generally referring to Raja Yoga, a form of Hindu practice). I know the two often get conflated (that is, "exercise" yoga is rife with Hindu Yoga as part of its marketing strategy), so probably "best to avoid," but the stretching itself seems rather harmless on its own.

Yes, I do the stretching and strengthening sporadically. Not on a regular basis, which I should because I feel less stressed when I do them.

Gxg (G²) · Jul 30, 2014

ArmyMatt said:
there is also the book the Gurus, the young man, and Elder Paisios. that book sheds some light on the subject.

One of my friends recently recommended that book to me - from the look of it and from the little I did check out, it's definitely something to investigate...as The Gurus, the young man, and Elder Paisios truly stands out as a classic when it comes to the Eastern worldview and mysticism being traversed by others searching.

Gxg (G²) · Jul 30, 2014

truefiction1 said:
Yes, the link works fine now that I'm using a different browser. It is a provocative video, to be sure, but we should be cautioned against hypocrisy, in that much of what is pointed out to be unhealthy, or dangerous pitfalls that those who pursuit those practices exist just as rampantly within our own religious cultures, wherein people will behave as they behave because that is what they are -- people. If psychologically unstable yoga students go insane after embarking upon that spiritual path, and psychologically unstable monks go insane after embarking upon theirs within Orthodox spiritual warfare (like Rasputin, for example), where is there really to be found any difference? But the reality is, there are insane people who exist in all religious cultures. Pastors go crazy and murder their entire families, etc. Orthodox Christian leaders use their positions to enhance their own power or sense of power (like Judas Iscariot, who sold out his God for the sake of increasing his own worldly power through wealth, fame, fortune, whatever). People will be people. Should the pot always insist upon calling the kettle black (calling the poorly understood religious affective experiences of others, like Hindus, or even Roman Catholics such as Francis of Assisi, "demonic")? This is more insane than those who've lost their minds through yoga.

Part of me was wondering that perhaps all forms of martial arts would be off limits if Yoga itself was off limits entirely due to how others went astray. Some have equated it with mysticism on differing levels. When it comes to the world of martial arts and the differing forms of meditation utilized by fighters/warriors and monks to calm themselves, that is something that seems within the same vein as yoga. Of course, not all are of the mindset that such things should be dabbled in by believers...but others see it differently. (more here).

For more:

How the body is utilized to position itself for health doesn't seem that it is automatically having to be a bad thing because of where others abused it. And not all aspects of a system are automatically negative simply because of where some aspects are. Some of that was brought up before when it came to the thread entitled Can you be a Christian and a Buddhist? ( #18). I liked how another phrased it when stating the following:

..
Among eastern traditions, I identify three types of meditation:

1. concentration (focused attention),
2. observation (mindfulness),
3. transcending (experiencing super-consciousness, transcendental, mantra, yogic)

....it is important to be wary of certain types of meditation. I would place transcendent types of meditations in this category - Yoga, Yogic meditation, mantra meditation, and transcendental meditation. These forms involve calling upon pagan deities, and it should rightfully be rejected by the faithful ....

Concentration meditation is no different than many of the meditations listed in this thread (e.g. focusing on Scripture, etc.). Concentration meditation simply involves focusing one's attention on a particular object. Like many other things, this practice can turn bad by how it's used (e.g. if one focuses on pagan deities or their names).

Observation meditation is simply seeing things as they really are, without the constant self-chatter & its wandering pull we experience from our "thinker". By learning to observe without judgment, it is akin to cleaning one's glasses in order to see the world much more clearly, or to tune out static in order to hear a radio station more clearly (examples which Aryeh Kaplan gave as metaphors) .

Finally, contrary to what the article's author states, many studies have shown that persistent mindfulness & concentration meditation actually helps strengthen the rational brain over the impulsive brain, and allows one to thus gain a greater sense of emotional balance. This is shown in scientific measurements including analyses of brain density and activity.

In many respects, I see mindfulness meditation (found prominently in Theravada Buddhism) as a form of studying - studying one's thoughts. It is not exactly a practice to clear one's mind of all thoughts, but it does help one to recognize that one's essential self is separate from the thinker, and that the self can observe and control the thinker. When the thinker is observed and recognized for what it is, the chaotic and meandering thoughts that flow from it loses its power over the self and generally starts to quiet down

[/quote]

I'm always amazed at the sweeping generalizations people seem to do on complex issues. It's like the people in the U.S condeming all forms of Herbal Medicine and Naturopathic medicine because of the ways that others in Asian and West Indian culture did so unto evil gods/spirits - as if everyone eating/using roots for healthy development was even concerned with that..and to be clear, the issue hits home for me since herbal medicine was practiced by my late Great-Grandmother and my Great-Grandfather (about to be 104yrs this year

and still thankful for the foods his wife made that science later came to acknowledge as beneficial). Do we throw out ALL Herbal remedies because of where some did so for bad purposes? Of course not. Rather, we logically examine what's done on a case-by-case basis, see the results in each and go from there.

Same with meditation - as well as other things connected to that like martial arts, dancing, medicine and other things that all come out of an Eastern background but have helped many out.

But of course, with meditation itself and yoga, I know we have to always be cautious as with any other exercise. Every good and perfect gift comes from above (as James 1:17 notes) and nothing that is good in this world or helpful is separate from the heart of God - it all finds its roots in Him, even if it ends up being used the way it was not intended or born in a context that was not the best (even when the practice itself was not bad so much as it was the setting it developed in). I recall where Federica Green actually spoke on it in her book "The Jesus Prayer: The Ancient Desert Prayer That Tunes the Heart to God .

It was interesting reading through it after my priest loaned it to me, as I did not know that the Jesus Prayer itself also connected with things such as deep breathing techniques and that the techniques behind it were different in the ways that Eastern exercise practices focus one's energy in patterns which don't lead to health (as she said on pg. 121) - although as it concerns things pertaining to the culture yoga came out of

jckstraw72 · Jul 30, 2014

i don't think its about yoga being abused -- its about the fact that yoga was specifically designed as Hindu worship, and then we come along and think we can just so easily divide the form and content. i don't know that the martial arts have this same origin.

ArmyMatt · Jul 30, 2014

jckstraw72 said:
i don't think its about yoga being abused -- its about the fact that yoga was specifically designed as Hindu worship, and then we come along and think we can just so easily divide the form and content. i don't know that the martial arts have this same origin.

I think it depends on the martial art. Shaolin Kung Fu has a lot of Buddhism in it, sumo has a lot of Shinto stuff, but then you get things like judo or kickboxing which do not.

Macarius · Jul 30, 2014

Given the way religion and life are interwoven in most pre-secular societies, I don't know that it is possible to 100% divorce them, but neither do I find that particularly troubling, since our own faith contains already so man baptized elements of pre-Christian religion.

That is, once separated from overt idolatry or idolatrous intentions, it doesn't seem inherently harmful or dangerous. Exercising the body is a venerable and healthy activity.

We might also want to specify what we mean by yoga, since there are many yogas and we are specifically dealing with one (raja yoga) from which derive the various exercises known as yoga. Yoga just means "way" or "road" and describes a spiritual practice leading the practitioner to God / Brahma / Unity-with-the-One.

If, in doing "downward dog" I am attempting to achieve a mental state of meditative focus leading me to unity with the Monistic Deity, then yeah - that's a bit problematic. But if I use downward dog to keep my body healthy and limber, then I am probably fine. If I incorporate downward dog into a Christian spiritual practice (where I use the mental and bodily focus as a means of entering into prayer to Christ and as an ascesis), then I think I'm being Orthodox in baptizing an element of culture.

ArmyMatt · Jul 31, 2014

If, in doing "downward dog" I am attempting to achieve a mental state of meditative focus leading me to unity with the Monistic Deity, then yeah - that's a bit problematic. But if I use downward dog to keep my body healthy and limber, then I am probably fine. If I incorporate downward dog into a Christian spiritual practice (where I use the mental and bodily focus as a means of entering into prayer to Christ and as an ascesis), then I think I'm being Orthodox in baptizing an element of culture.

yeah I totally agree. I imagine as a fitness technique, it would be fine if the Aum was replaced with the Jesus Prayer, and done under the guidance of one's spiritual father.

gurneyhalleck1 · Jul 31, 2014

shiva worshipper!!!

Dorothea said:
yeah, I know the dangers of yoga. I still do some back stretches that are yoga stretches. It helps my back and stress.

Dorothea · Aug 1, 2014

haha. Well, this deal with breathing exercises. That's in every type of exercise, whether it be aerobics, lifting weights, or yoga. When I do breathing exercises in yoga, Denise Austin (I do her video tapes) reminds me to inhale and exhale cause I tend to hold my breath, and also, what I really appreciate about her low impact aerobic exercises is her constant reminders, "Is your tummy in?" and "Is your back straight?" LOL That helps because I have such crummy posture. Yoga stretching helps with my posture, too, but I gotta be careful and don't over do it like I did a couple weeks ago after not having stretched in quite a long time. lol So, it's best to just do a little bit at a time...DUH.

Digout · Aug 2, 2014

ArmyMatt said:
yeah I totally agree. I imagine as a fitness technique, it would be fine if the Aum was replaced with the Jesus Prayer, and done under the guidance of one's spiritual father.

I agree. A Hindu yoga trainer will allow 'Om' replaced by Jesus if one preferred. It is basically an exercise meant to keep the body and mind healthy for the pursuit of spirituality. Yoga is never meant to be the ultimate stage of 'mukti' (salvation)!

seashale76 · Aug 2, 2014

Interesting video. I was especially surprised that there are chapters in 'The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios' that never made it into the English publication.

Personally- while I find nothing wrong with stretching- the meditation aspect of yoga has never set well with me. I once taught with an Indian woman who was very into yoga and very much considered it to be part and parcel of her religion. However- my one experience outside of exercise videos in a true yoga class ended with me fracturing my ankle by agitating an old injury that hadn't been agitated in over a decade (this occurred a year ago). After that- I was done. I'll stick to pilates.

ArmyMatt · Aug 2, 2014

Digout said:
I agree. A Hindu yoga trainer will allow 'Om' replaced by Jesus if one preferred. It is basically an exercise meant to keep the body and mind healthy for the pursuit of spirituality. Yoga is never meant to be the ultimate stage of 'mukti' (salvation)!

I think that depends on the yoga, and that is why we must use discernment and be careful. we only need to give the devil an inch for him to ensnare us.

Knee V · Aug 2, 2014

I tend to have as difficult a time separating Hindu elements from Yoga as I do separating Christian elements from making the sign of the Cross.

seashale76 · Aug 2, 2014

Knee V said:
I tend to have as difficult a time separating Hindu elements from Yoga as I do separating Christian elements from making the sign of the Cross.

The main issue here is that yoga is offered everywhere these days and billed as good exercise. They'll throw a bunch of Sanskrit words and terms at you and propose meditative techniques to people- making it seem like there is nothing spiritual about it at all.

gurneyhalleck1 · Aug 2, 2014

It's bizarre and scary how Indian and Eastern (not Orthodox, mind you!) thinking creeps into Christianity. When I was still Catholic, I lived under this naïve mindset that, thanks to the Pope and magisterium, all Catholic parishes were 100% faithful to the traditions and canons and heritage of the CC. Then I went to a parish at Morro Bay at the coast for Mass with Kate. Holy Shnikees! That was the Barnum and Bailey Mass! And on the way in I saw a huge poster on the wall saying that Depok Choprah was coming to their parish to speak. I thought, "Lord, have mercy!"

That was one of my first epiphany eye-rolling specials as a Catholic!

Nik0s · Aug 2, 2014

gurneyhalleck1 said:
It's bizarre and scary how Indian and Eastern (not Orthodox, mind you!) thinking creeps into Christianity. When I was still Catholic, I lived under this naïve mindset that, thanks to the Pope and magisterium, all Catholic parishes were 100% faithful to the traditions and canons and heritage of the CC. Then I went to a parish at Morro Bay at the coast for Mass with Kate. Holy Shnikees! That was the Barnum and Bailey Mass! And on the way in I saw a huge poster on the wall saying that Depok Choprah was coming to their parish to speak. I thought, "Lord, have mercy!"

That was one of my first epiphany eye-rolling specials as a Catholic!

How disturbing is this? :o
Service celebrates 2 beliefs - Los Angeles Times

"This was a once-in-a-lifetime experience in worship service," said Bob Bland, a member of St. Patrick's Episcopal Church of Thousand Oaks, who was among the 260 attendees. "There was something so holy -- so much symbolism and so many opportunities for meditation."
During the service, the Rt. Rev. J. Jon Bruno, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, issued a statement of apology to the Hindu religious community for centuries-old acts of religious discrimination by Christians, including attempts to convert them.
"I believe that the world cannot afford for us to repeat the errors of our past, in which we sought to dominate rather than to serve," Bruno said in a statement read by the Rt. Rev. Chester Talton. "In this spirit, and in order to take another step in building trust between our two great religious traditions, I offer a sincere apology to the Hindu religious community."
The bishop also said he was committed to renouncing "proselytizing" of Hindus. Bruno had been scheduled to read the statement himself, but a death of a close family friend prevented him from attending the service.
Swami Sarvadevananda, of Vedanta Society of Southern California, was among about a dozen Hindu leaders honored during the service. He called Bruno's stance "a great and courageous step" that binds the two communities.
"By declaring that there will be no more proselytizing, the bishop has opened a new door of understanding," Sarvadevananda said. "The modern religious man must expand his understanding and love of religions and their practices."
All were invited to Holy Communion, after the Episcopal celebrant elevated a tray of consecrated Indian bread, and deacons raised wine-filled chalices.
In respect to Hindu tradition, a tray of flowers was also presented. Christians and Hindus lined up for communion, but since Orthodox Hindus shun alcohol, they consumed only the bread.
During the service, the two faiths also blended practices during the handling of an icon of Jesus.
The Rev. Karen MacQueen, an associate priest at St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Pomona, who was the celebrant, carried the icon, a large painted image, during the procession. She placed it before the altar.
Then, as she and the others knelt before the icon, a second Hindu band, Adoration Chant Band, sang a hymn while the icon was anointed with sandalwood paste by the Episcopal celebrant. A flowered garland was placed on it and a lamp was lighted, a sign of Christ, the light in the darkness

Both Hindu and Christian texts were read.
In her homily, "A Vision for Inter-Religious Dialogue," MacQueen said in both Hinduism and Christianity devotees believe that "the Divine Presence" illuminates the whole world.
MacQueen, who spent two years studying Hinduism in India, said both faiths revere "great figures who embody the divine light, who teach the divine truth."
For Christians, Jesus preeminently embodies the divine light, she said. For Hindus, she said a number of figures embody the divine light and teach the divine truth.
"To my knowledge this is an unprecedented event in L.A., California and the U.S.," said the Rev. Gwynne Guibord, head of the ecumenical and inter-religious affairs for the diocese, which initiated Saturday's project.
"My personal, prayerful hope is that it will serve as a 'model' of good will toward building up of a 'beloved community,' " she said.

So Hinduism teaches the same divine truth of Jesus Christ? :doh:

SeventhValley · Aug 2, 2014

The yoga at the gym near me is stretching with relaxing music and breathing. Also women in tight practically see through workout pants bending over in front of you(which is why I stopped going...too many intrusive thoughts could not concentrate on the exercise)

Once I went to a real yoga class and their was talk about Om, imagining Chakra colors while in certain positions, and feeling one with the universe while praying.

The Truth about Yoga

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