Hell

Der Alte · Jul 28, 2014

he-man said:
Fictional? How about figurative? Who is this beast?
G2342 θηρα brutal person; (figuratively) destruction

This word is Greek. We were discussing the 'beast" Daniel saw in a dream. And Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Not relevant unless you can show relevance to the "beast" in Daniel's dream.

Exactly! Annihilated: destroy something: to destroy something completely, especially so that it ceases to exist,
Annihilate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Bing Dictionary

That means vaporized as smoke and Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Wax melts and smoke blows away neither one ceases to exist.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

"blot out his name from under heaven" does not necessarily mean annihilate, cease to exist. There are many people whose names have been blotted out under the sun. Ordinary people who lived 100+ years ago nobody remembers their names.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The fat of lambs and smoke does not cease to exist. Psalm 37 is not about the eternal fate of sinful mankind but what happens to Israel's enemies in this world.

Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Cut down grass and withered herbs is not destruction or annihilation.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Cut off does not mean destruction or annihilaton. See vs. 2, above.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Israel cannot look into the hereafter, they can only see that their enemies no longer attack them.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The wicked attacking Israel, their swords will pierce their own hearts and their bows will be broken is not destruction or annihilation.

Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous

Broken arms is not destruction or annihilation.

It would be helpful if you would comment on the scripture given instead of evading it by asking "What is the Point"

How can I comment on scripture unless you state a premise you are trying to show with the scripture. For example, my comment on 2Ths 1:9, above. this vs. does not prove complete destruction or annihilation "everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, 'and from the glory of His power'" If something is destroyed, nonexistant it cannot be "from the face of the Lord" or anything else. Destruction in this verse is synonymous with being away from the presence of the Lord.

Can you explain this away without saying "what is the point"? The point is with what kind of intelligence do you respond to the exegesis or critical explanation or interpretation of a text such as:

If you provide "exegesis" I will address it, but you did not provide "exegesis" just as you have not provided any exegesis for the scrpture quoted below.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Chaff and smoke blows away. None of these things cease to exist.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Does not prove destruction or annihilation. The chaff does not cease to exist. it is blown to another place.

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

This does not prove destruction or annihilation. Chaff is not something distinct from the wheat, it is the inedible part of the wheat.

BukiRob · Jul 28, 2014

Der Alter said:
This word is Greek. We were discussing the 'beast" Daniel saw in a dream. And Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew.

Not relevant unless you can show relevance to the "beast" in Daniel's dream.

Wax melts and smoke blows away neither one ceases to exist.

"blot out his name from under heaven" does not necessarily mean annihilate, cease to exist. There are many people whose names have been blotted out under the sun. Ordinary people who lived 100+ years ago nobody remembers their names.

The fat of lambs and smoke does not cease to exist. Psalm 37 is not about the eternal fate of sinful mankind but what happens to Israel's enemies in this world.

Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Cut down grass and withered herbs is not destruction or annihilation.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Cut off does not mean destruction or annihilaton. See vs. 2, above.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Israel cannot look into the hereafter, they can only see that their enemies no longer attack them.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The wicked attacking Israel, their swords will pierce their own hearts and their bows will be broken is not destruction or annihilation.

Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous

Broken arms is not destruction or annihilation.

How can I comment on scripture unless you state a premise you are trying to show with the scripture. For example, my comment on 2Ths 1:9, above. this vs. does not prove complete destruction or annihilation "everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, 'and from the glory of His power'" If something is destroyed, nonexistant it cannot be "from the face of the Lord" or anything else. Destruction in this verse is synonymous with being away from the presence of the Lord.

If you provide "exegesis" I will address it, but you did not provide "exegesis" just as you have not provided any exegesis for the scrpture quoted below.

Chaff and smoke blows away. None of these things cease to exist.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Does not prove destruction or annihilation. The chaff does not cease to exist. it is blown to another place.

This does not prove destruction or annihilation. Chaff is not something distinct from the wheat, it is the inedible part of the wheat.

Yet again you keep dodging the elephant in the room.... that is that MAN is not born with any part of his being, being Immortal. NO where in scripture you you defend the position that unredeemed man who dies in that fallen state, is given eternal life....which absolutely would be required for eternal torment

Der Alte · Jul 28, 2014

BukiRob said:
Yet again you keep dodging the elephant in the room.... that is that MAN is not born with any part of his being, being Immortal. NO where in scripture you you defend the position that unredeemed man who dies in that fallen state, is given eternal life....which absolutely would be required for eternal torment

This post is a diversion it has absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. There is no elephant, not even a mouse in the the room. I have provided proof from scripture more than once. Your only response is "Nuh Uh it is figurative." Scripture supports my argument and it has never been proven to be figurative. Too bad those who claim to be aligned with the Jewish faith reject their history.

CherubRam · Jul 29, 2014

Hell has been found: 'Gate to Hell' Guardians Recovered in Turkey : Discovery News

DrBubbaLove · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
Yet again you keep dodging the elephant in the room.... that is that MAN is not born with any part of his being, being Immortal. NO where in scripture you you defend the position that unredeemed man who dies in that fallen state, is given eternal life....which absolutely would be required for eternal torment

I would think it a huge mistake and misrepresentation of the promise given His Followers to suggest a state of eternal torment=eternal life. As for Scripture and something about us being immortal, am not sure it is entirely correct to think Scripture silent on the matter.

Scripture indicates He made man and that it was Very Good that He did so. The only purpose for making us which makes sense out of our concepts of God, is that He made us to share in Eternal Happiness, which appears to be what Adam and Eve were doing prior to the Fall. Not potentially able, but created able to share eternally - which is why it WAS Very Good. The only way man could be able is if we were created to exist as an entity without end. Not endless as in no beginning and no end which only applies to God, but made like the angels (also sentient beings) to share eternally in His Eternal Happiness.

Obviously the Fall of man did result in the death of our bodies, and it changed our relationship with God in that He could not share His Eternal Happiness with those who willfully defy Him. He "cast" Adam and Eve "out". Same reason the angels who rebelled had to be "cast out". The fact those angels were not "annihilated" but instead "cast out" demonstrates that God's decision in making them (and us) was perfect - not a mistake on His part that now needs to be "erased". Could He erase us at all? Certainly, but He did not and will not. There still has to be Justice for this rebellion and Scripture indicates it will come all at one time for ALL sentient beings He has made. Erasing us would not provide that Justice.

God does not make mistakes (also Scriptural) and so every human who has ever lived is not a mistake. And it is Scriptural that we are to treat EVERY human life as special, because Scripture says He made us all in His Image. (THOU SHALL NOT KILL - a natural law written on our hearts-(also Scriptural)

God is a Spirit (also Scripture). Nothing about our existence except our soul is spiritual, so that could be the only thing understood as somehow "reflecting", not equal to, His Image. A spirit, even the Spirt (God) does not have parts. Scripture indicates spirits can manisfest, but those manisfestations are a "part" of what those spirits are.

Death is evident to us in other living things besides ourselves. It is evident in that such things stop moving (being animated) and then decay into pieces/ parts (basic elements that composed the former living body). The human soul is a spirit, which has no parts to break down into - therefore cannot be subject to the process of death we observe on living "bodies". So if one believes in human soul/spirit, that element of our existence cannot experience a breakdown into parts because it has none.

Could God erase our soul/spirit? Certainly. Will He? I cannot see how without it following that He was wrong to have ever made us. So the only thing that remains is Justice. And Scripture indicates all humans are resurrected with the ALL the "dead" given new bodies. Some go to Glory - and will have what some called "glorified" bodies, some go body and soul from Judgement to damnation. That damnation does not end but cannot be equated to "eternal life" as humans were meant to LIVE sharing in His Eternal Happiness.

Truly "living" as a human was created to do can only mean (in this life and the next), loving, knowing and serving the Supreme Good (God, and that is Scriptural). And we can only do that if we are created in our mother's womb with the gift from God of an existence that will not end - which can only be understood as applying to our soul/spirit.

BukiRob · Jul 29, 2014

Der Alter said:
This post is a diversion it has absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. There is no elephant, not even a mouse in the the room. I have provided proof from scripture more than once. Your only response is "Nuh Uh it is figurative." Scripture supports my argument and it has never been proven to be figurative. Too bad those who claim to be aligned with the Jewish faith reject their history.

You have not cited scripture that is even remotely suggestive that all man has an immortal soul.

You blindly turn away from scripture that declares that the wages of sin is death, that Yeshua himself declares to not fear man who can only kill the body but rather fear G-d who can kill both body and soul

CherubRam · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
Yet again you keep dodging the elephant in the room.... that is that MAN is not born with any part of his being, being Immortal. NO where in scripture you you defend the position that unredeemed man who dies in that fallen state, is given eternal life....which absolutely would be required for eternal torment

Maybe he thinks he has outwitted us by dodging the question. Only those entering heaven receive the gift of life immortal. The Father of lies says: Genesis 3:4
You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman.

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
You have not cited scripture that is even remotely suggestive that all man has an immortal soul.

You blindly turn away from scripture that declares that the wages of sin is death, that Yeshua himself declares to not fear man who can only kill the body but rather fear G-d who can kill both body and soul

The same ol' out-of-context unscriptural later theological system proof text. Where does your proof text say that God has or will destroy a soul in hell?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What God created He is able to destroy but there is not one singhle verse in the entire Bible which states that God has or will destroy a single soul in hell. I invite your attention to my previous [post=66054961]Post #331[/post], this thread. If you think the passages are figurative, you need to prove it not just say, "Nuh Uh they're figurative."

In Isaiah 14:9-11, there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc. This passage was understood by the Jews to be literal.

In another passage, Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31, again God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

And yet another passage Luke 16:19-31 where a dead man in hades, being tormented in flames cries out to Abraham for a drop of water to ease his toment and for Abraham to send someone to his brothers so they don't end up in his situation. Every attempt to explain this away as figurative fails.

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2014

CherubRam said:
Maybe he thinks he has outwitted us by dodging the question. Only those entering heaven receive the gift of life immortal. The Father of lies says: Genesis 3:4
You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman.

I don't think anything, I know, I have answered the question several times. That you and others ignore and blow off my answers is your failure not mine. See my [post=66054961]Post #331[/post] this thread. Prove me wrong if you can. Don't just say "Nuh Uh that is figurative." I want scriptural proof, not opinion. The ancient Jews understood Isaiah 14:9-11 to be literal. Can you prove them wrong from scripture?

Gehenna

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Jewish Encyclopedia online

BukiRob · Jul 29, 2014

DrBubbaLove said:
I would think it a huge mistake and misrepresentation of the promise given His Followers to suggest a state of eternal torment=eternal life. As for Scripture and something about us being immortal, am not sure it is entirely correct to think Scripture silent on the matter.

Scripture indicates He made man and that it was Very Good that He did so. The only purpose for making us which makes sense out of our concepts of God, is that He made us to share in Eternal Happiness, which appears to be what Adam and Eve were doing prior to the Fall. Not potentially able, but created able to share eternally - which is why it WAS Very Good. The only way man could be able is if we were created to exist as an entity without end. Not endless as in no beginning and no end which only applies to God, but made like the angels (also sentient beings) to share eternally in His Eternal Happiness.

Obviously the Fall of man did result in the death of our bodies, and it changed our relationship with God in that He could not share His Eternal Happiness with those who willfully defy Him. He "cast" Adam and Eve "out". Same reason the angels who rebelled had to be "cast out". The fact those angels were not "annihilated" but instead "cast out" demonstrates that God's decision in making them (and us) was perfect - not a mistake on His part that now needs to be "erased". Could He erase us at all? Certainly, but He did not and will not. There still has to be Justice for this rebellion and Scripture indicates it will come all at one time for ALL sentient beings He has made. Erasing us would not provide that Justice.

God does not make mistakes (also Scriptural) and so every human who has ever lived is not a mistake. And it is Scriptural that we are to treat EVERY human life as special, because Scripture says He made us all in His Image. (THOU SHALL NOT KILL - a natural law written on our hearts-(also Scriptural)

God is a Spirit (also Scripture). Nothing about our existence except our soul is spiritual, so that could be the only thing understood as somehow "reflecting", not equal to, His Image. A spirit, even the Spirt (God) does not have parts. Scripture indicates spirits can manisfest, but those manisfestations are a "part" of what those spirits are.

Death is evident to us in other living things besides ourselves. It is evident in that such things stop moving (being animated) and then decay into pieces/ parts (basic elements that composed the former living body). The human soul is a spirit, which has no parts to break down into - therefore cannot be subject to the process of death we observe on living "bodies". So if one believes in human soul/spirit, that element of our existence cannot experience a breakdown into parts because it has none.

Could God erase our soul/spirit? Certainly. Will He? I cannot see how without it following that He was wrong to have ever made us. So the only thing that remains is Justice. And Scripture indicates all humans are resurrected with the ALL the "dead" given new bodies. Some go to Glory - and will have what some called "glorified" bodies, some go body and soul from Judgement to damnation. That damnation does not end but cannot be equated to "eternal life" as humans were meant to LIVE sharing in His Eternal Happiness.

Truly "living" as a human was created to do can only mean (in this life and the next), loving, knowing and serving the Supreme Good (God, and that is Scriptural). And we can only do that if we are created in our mother's womb with the gift from God of an existence that will not end - which can only be understood as applying to our soul/spirit.

Thats nice... really, but then Yeshua has a very different take on the subject

Matt 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom."

Ezeikiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."

This is the same lie the serpent sold to eve.... that God's decree is a lie Eve told the serpent that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they would die.... the serpent said to her, it is not true but rather God is keeping this from you and if you eat it "you will be like G-d"

Every man and woman who has ever lived has died. Both the righteous and the most vile of sinner. Hence it is reasonable and logical (and scripturally valid) that the decree of the wages of sin is death is speaking about more than just a physical death

John 3:36 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [j]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

That is pretty clear. The sinner does not receive eternal life

John 10 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are [c]the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Fathers name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The fact that eternal life must be given to us is a clear, unmistakable sign that man is NOT, NOT immortal.

Some on here make the insane unscriptural leap that the sinner too is granted immortality yet no such scripture can be found to support this pagan concept.

In Revelations 20 we see the White Throne Judgement:
Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The sinner is judged according to his DEEDS. We're told that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death and Hades (grave) is cast into the LOF and those who's names are not found in the book of life are also cast into the LOF.

Matt 7:13 13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter. The through it. The Greek word translated into English is basanizo carries a number of meanings. Strongs #928 One meaning is applied to testing metals using as a touchstone. However, the other 4 definitions of the word have a connotation relating to torture or torment. Basanizo is not used in this verse but instead the word kolasis is used LSJ Gloss:
κόλασις
chastisement, correction, punishment
Strong's:
κόλασις
penal infliction

Thayer defines it as 1) correction, punishment, penalty

In ALL 4 gospels whenever the disposition of the soul is discussed we never find the word Basanizo used. We DO find Kolasis, krisis and krima used

Norah63 · Jul 29, 2014

Jesus said touch me, does a spirit have flesh and bones? He cooked for them and ate with them. That's immortal body!

BukiRob · Jul 29, 2014

Norah63 said:
Jesus said touch me, does a spirit have flesh and bones? He cooked for them and ate with them. That's immortal body!

Messiah is blameless and he and the father are one.... what does this have to do with the disposition of the sinner?

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
Thats nice... really, but then Yeshua has a very different take on the subject

Matt 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom."

What God created He is able to destory but there is not one single verse in the Bible which states God has or will destroy even a singhle soul in Gehenna!

Ezeikiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."

This is the same lie the serpent sold to eve.... that God's decree is a lie Eve told the serpent that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they would die.... the serpent said to her, it is not true but rather God is keeping this from you and if you eat it "you will be like G-d"

Every man and woman who has ever lived has died. Both the righteous and the most vile of sinner. Hence it is reasonable and logical (and scripturally valid) that the decree of the wages of sin is death is speaking about more than just a physical death

This argument fails. You ignore the verse that says all [100% of mankind, past, present and future] have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Then the verse which says it is appointed unto man [100% of mankind past, present and future] to die after that the judgment.

John 3:36 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

That is pretty clear. The sinner does not receive eternal life

"The wrath of God is on him." This says nothing about a second death or destruction.

John 10 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are [c]the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Fathers name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The fact that eternal life must be given to us is a clear, unmistakable sign that man is NOT, NOT immortal.

Some on here make the insane unscriptural leap that the sinner too is granted immortality yet no such scripture can be found to support this pagan concept.

This says nothing about those who do not believe not having conscious existence as did the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

In Revelations 20 we see the White Throne Judgement:
Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The sinner is judged according to his DEEDS. We're told that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death and Hades (grave) is cast into the LOF and those who's names are not found in the book of life are also cast into the LOF.

Click to expand...

This passage says they are thrown into the LOF which is the scond death. The two terms are interchangeable the second death is the LOF. Nothing says people are thrown into the LOF then they die or are destroyed.

The LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Three living beings, one the false prophet is a person, are cast into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented day and night forever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Thus the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Matt 7:13 13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter. The through it. The Greek word translated into English is basanizo carries a number of meanings. Strongs #928 One meaning is applied to testing metals using as a touchstone. However, the other 4 definitions of the word have a connotation relating to torture or torment. Basanizo is not used in this verse but instead the word kolasis is used LSJ Gloss:
κόλασις
chastisement, correction, punishment
Strong's:
κόλασις
penal infliction

Thayer defines it as 1) correction, punishment, penalty

In ALL 4 gospels whenever the disposition of the soul is discussed we never find the word Basanizo used. We DO find Kolasis, krisis and krima used

Click to expand...

Your argument is fallacious. Here is the complete definition of κόλασις from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker, one of, if not the, most renowned Greek lexicons available.

κόλασις ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).

1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy ones freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

BAGD lexicon online

he-man · Jul 29, 2014

Der Alter said:
This word is Greek. We were discussing the 'beast" Daniel saw in a dream. And Daniel was written in Aramaic and Hebrew.

Chapter 2:4-7,28 is written in Aramaic, the rest is in Hebrew.the author turned to Hebrew limiting the circle of those who could understand his meaning in the more apocalyptic sections of his book!
A New Standard Bible Dictionary, Funk & Wagnalls

Der Alter said:
Not relevant unless you can show relevance to the "beast" in Daniel's dream.

H2423 חיוא
(Aramaic); from H2418; an animal: - beast.

Der Alter said:
Wax melts and smoke blows away neither one ceases to exist.

Do you need a lesson in Hebrew?
Isa 43:17 Who is bringing forth chariot and horse, an army, even a strong one: `Together they lie down--they are extinct, As flax they are extinguished.'

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not extinguish <G4570>, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish <H1846 דּעך> when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.

21:17 How oft is the lamp of the wicked extinguished <H1846 דּעך>, And come on them doth their calamity? Pangs He apportioneth in His anger. <H1846 דּעך>, A primitive root; to be extinguished; figuratively to expire or be dried up: - be extinct, consumed, put out, quenched.

Pro 24:20 For there is not a posterity to the evil, The lamp of the wicked is extinguished. <H1846 דּעך>,

Psa 118:12 They compassed me about as bees, They have been extinguished <H1846 דּעך>, as a fire of thorns, In the name of Jehovah I surely cut them off.

Der Alter said:
"blot out his name from under heaven" does not necessarily mean annihilate, cease to exist.

Exo 32:33 And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him from My book. H4229 מחה by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).
Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his zeal shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. H4229 מחה by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).

Der Alter said:
Cut down grass and withered herbs is not destruction or annihilation. Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. Cut off does not mean destruction or annihilaton. See vs. 2, above.

H3772 כּרת A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume;

Der Alter said:
How can I comment on scripture unless you state a premise you are trying to show with the scripture. If you provide "exegesis" I will address it, but you did not provide "exegesis" just as you have not provided any exegesis for the scrpture quoted below.

I did not intend to. I asked you to give your exegeses unless you are unable!
LISTEN to what I said: It would be helpful if you would comment on the scripture given instead of evading it by asking a "question"

Reverse Psychology does not work here. Can you explain this away without asking a "question"? The point is with what kind of intelligence do you respond with an exegesis or critical explanation or interpretation of the text I quoted?

Der Alter said:
Chaff and smoke blows away. None of these things cease to exist. Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Does not prove destruction or annihilation. The chaff does not cease to exist. it is blown to another place.

Mat 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them up: but gather the wheat into my repository.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked.
I guess you cannot understand JESUS when he said: he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.?
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Der Alter said:
This does not prove destruction or annihilation. Chaff is not something distinct from the wheat, it is the inedible part of the wheat.

chaff noun
Definition of CHAFF discarded or useless material 1: the seed coverings and other debris separated from the seed in threshing grain
Chaff - Synonyms and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary;
The destruction of the wicked, and their powerlessness, are likened to the carrying away of chaff by the wind ( Isaiah 17:13 ; Hosea 13:3 ; Zephaniah 2:2 ). M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary

DrBubbaLove · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
Thats nice... really, but then Yeshua has a very different take on the subject

If it were just nice then there might be a point in that reply to my post. We can move on.

As apparently the claim is that the soul is not immortal, then how does this view explain our existence extending beyond this life in order to then supposedly receive an existence that can never end?

And how it it Very Good to be made in God's Image yet made unable to share in His eternal Happiness due to the alledged limitations of our existence. For that matter what would be the difference between His making us and any other animal? What then is His purpose for making us?

And BTW Adam and Eve did die as God said they would if they willfully rebelled. The implication being they would not have died had they not rebelled. And thier death was two fold, one immediate in being "cast out" from the relationship they had with God, not just for themselves but for the entire human race that sprung from them. Leaving them and as a result us in the fallen state that required a Supernatural Intervention. An intervention that does not restore the entire race as while, but makes it possible for each individual to be restored. That restoration occurs in the next life.

A restoration does not create something new, it RESTORES a thing to the way it should be. The way it was intended by it's Maker to be. The meaning behind making all things new "AGAIN". So gaining "eternal life" for humans can only mean we can be restored to the way we were meant to be, to then forever serve, love and know God - the way He made Adam and Eve to be - the way they were before they rebelled and were "cast out", (which caused the entire race to remain cast out unless He acted). Being rendered forever unable to "be" what we were made to be can NEVER be confused with "being" what He made us for.

So while it may amuze some to attempt to equate the orthodox view of the damned with "gaining eternal life", the eternal existence of the damned would be the polar opposite of what it means for a human to gain eternal life. The damned are neither striving to know, love or serve God in Hell and Hell is not meant to make them want to or teach them how to. It is not rehab for humans or second chance. And since humans are made to love, serve and know God - that existence while very much "alive" is not living. Which BTW is part of the reason CS Lewis speculates in writing that such an existence, while alive, would have to change a person to the extent they would no longer be recognizable as human.

BukiRob · Jul 29, 2014

DrBubbaLove said:
If it were just nice then there might be a point in that reply to my post. We can move on.

As apparently the claim is that the soul is not immortal, then how does this view explain our existence extending beyond this life in order to then supposedly receive an existence that can never end?

And how it it Very Good to be made in God's Image yet made unable to share in His eternal Happiness due to the alledged limitations of our existence. For that matter what would be the difference between His making us and any other animal? What then is His purpose for making us?

And BTW Adam and Eve did die as God said they would if they willfully rebelled. The implication being they would not have died had they not rebelled. And thier death was two fold, one immediate in being "cast out" from the relationship they had with God, not just for themselves but for the entire human race that sprung from them. Leaving them and as a result us in the fallen state that required a Supernatural Intervention. An intervention that does not restore the entire race as while, but makes it possible for each individual to be restored. That restoration occurs in the next life.

A restoration does not create something new, it RESTORES a thing to the way it should be. The way it was intended by it's Maker to be. The meaning behind making all things new "AGAIN". So gaining "eternal life" for humans can only mean we can be restored to the way we were meant to be, to then forever serve, love and know God - the way He made Adam and Eve to be - the way they were before they rebelled and were "cast out", (which caused the entire race to remain cast out unless He acted). Being rendered forever unable to "be" what we were made to be can NEVER be confused with "being" what He made us for.

So while it may amuze some to attempt to equate the orthodox view of the damned with "gaining eternal life", the eternal existence of the damned would be the polar opposite of what it means for a human to gain eternal life. The damned are neither striving to know, love or serve God in Hell and Hell is not meant to make them want to or teach them how to. It is not rehab for humans or second chance. And since humans are made to love, serve and know God - that existence while very much "alive" is not living. Which BTW is part of the reason CS Lewis speculates in writing that such an existence, while alive, would have to change a person to the extent they would no longer be recognizable as human.

Ignored the rest of what I said I see.

I will side with what scripture declares. And it declares that G-d ALONE is immortal. Yeshua on several occasions declares that HE grants eternal life to his followers.

One does not give something unneeded to someone. If then HE gives eternal life to his flock he does so because we are in need of it.
John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

and perhaps the single most clear verse on the mortality of man and who and who does not recieve eternal life

1 John 5:11-12

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 10:28

and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Without life ONE IS DEAD.

I have shown several passages that make a very, very clear distinction between who does and does NOT have eternal life.

In all of your post you do not cite a single solitary scriptural support for your belief. If your position is NOT validated by scripture it is not truth no matter how much you want it to be.

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2014

he-man said:
Chapter 2:4-7,28 is written in Aramaic, the rest is in Hebrew.the author turned to Hebrew limiting the circle of those who could understand his meaning in the more apocalyptic sections of his book!
A New Standard Bible Dictionary, Funk & Wagnalls

Which only confirms what I said the Greek word you quoted is irrelevant.

H2423 חיוא
(Aramaic); from H2418; an animal: - beast. Do you need a lesson in Hebrew?
Isa 43:17 Who is bringing forth chariot and horse, an army, even a strong one: `Together they lie down--they are extinct, As flax they are extinguished.'

Soldiers and horses which fall on the field of battle are not annihilated or cease to exist.

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not extinguish <G4570>, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish <H1846 דּעך> when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.

Melted wax does not cease to exist!

21:17 How oft is the lamp of the wicked extinguished <H1846 דּעך>, And come on them doth their calamity? Pangs He apportioneth in His anger. <H1846 דּעך>, A primitive root; to be extinguished; figuratively to expire or be dried up: - be extinct, consumed, put out, quenched.

Pro 24:20 For there is not a posterity to the evil, The lamp of the wicked is extinguished. <H1846 דּעך>,

A lamp that is extinguisehd does not cease to exist.

Psa 118:12 They compassed me about as bees, They have been extinguished <H1846 דּעך>, as a fire of thorns, In the name of Jehovah I surely cut them off. Exo 32:33 And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him from My book. H4229 מחה by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).

A fire in thorns that is extinguished does not cease to exist.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his zeal shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. H4229 מחה by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out). H3772 כּרת A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume;

I already addressed Deu 29:20

I did not intend to. I asked you to give your exegeses unless you are unable!
LISTEN to what I said: It would be helpful if you would comment on the scripture given instead of evading it by asking a "question"

Reverse Psychology does not work here. Can you explain this away without asking a "question"? The point is with what kind of intelligence do you respond with an exegesis or critical explanation or interpretation of the text I quoted?

Why? I'm not here for your amusement. When I post scripture I exegete them, when you post scripture it is incumbent on you to exegete them, not me. Keep your insults to yourself.

Mat 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them up: but gather the wheat into my repository.
Mat 13:38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked.
I guess you cannot understand JESUS when he said: he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.?

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff [ἄχυρον] with unquenchable fire.
chaff noun
Definition of CHAFF discarded or useless material 1: the seed coverings and other debris separated from the seed in threshing grain
Chaff - Synonyms and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary;
The destruction of the wicked, and their powerlessness, are likened to the carrying away of chaff by the wind ( Isaiah 17:13 ; Hosea 13:3 ; Zephaniah 2:2 ). M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary

What does all this mean to you? Chaff carried away by the wind does not cease to exist. We don't need English dictionaries to muddy up the waters when the lexicon fully defines the word.

G892 ἄχυρον achuron
Thayer Definition:
1) a stalk of grain from which the kernels have been beaten out
2) straw broken up by a threshing machine, chaff
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: perhaps remotely from cheo (to shed forth)

DrBubbaLove · Jul 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
Ignored the rest of what I said I see.

I will side with what scripture declares. And it declares that G-d ALONE is immortal. Yeshua on several occasions declares that HE grants eternal life to his followers.

One does not give something unneeded to someone. If then HE gives eternal life to his flock he does so because we are in need of it.
John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

and perhaps the single most clear verse on the mortality of man and who and who does not recieve eternal life

1 John 5:11-12

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 10:28

and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Without life ONE IS DEAD.

I have shown several passages that make a very, very clear distinction between who does and does NOT have eternal life.

In all of your post you do not cite a single solitary scriptural support for your belief. If your position is NOT validated by scripture it is not truth no matter how much you want it to be.

Claiming a particular Scripture verse clearly states something to support one's belief we can all do. Problem is we cannot all be right. Ignoring such claims simply means I do not agree it makes one's case and am not interested in debating the meaning of those verses. What is more telling is one does not address how one's beliefs about Hell, the human soul...etc align with other Scripture and beliefs held/

Supporting how one's view of that particular verse and the resulting belief jive with all other beliefs held to be true is harder than simplying playing "I have verses to back it up" which I is few people attempt it.

I understand why it would be difficult to explain how it could Very Good to create beings to love, serve and know God, made in His Image yet have nothing about those beings that makes them special compared to other life here because one has ruled out the one thing about us that does reflect His Image, our soul, having the same attribute of any "spirit" of sentient being - immortality.
I can understand the difficulty in explaining how a person soul could be both NOT immortal, yet the existence of the person transcends the death of our body. Obviously in ignoring these issues one either has no response or has never really thought this position through beyond simply wanting it to be so and claiming these verses support it.

Just because something is hard, does not mean that one can defend a position by simply quoting Scripture and claiming it backs that position up without explaining how that position supports everything else held to be true.

Norah63 · Jul 30, 2014

What is 'the disposition of the sinner'?
Was it pharisee or sadusees that didnt believe in the resurrection?
Ya gonna be somewhere for eternity, choose wisely while there is still time.
Eternity is outside the safe walls of time, think about it!

he-man · Jul 30, 2014

Der Alter said:
Soldiers and horses which fall on the field of battle are not annihilated or cease to exist.

extinguish <G4570> they are extinct, As flax they are extinguished.'

Der Alter said:
Melted wax does not cease to exist!

they vanish <H1846 דּעך>

Der Alter said:
A lamp that is extinguisehd does not cease to exist.

blot him from My book. H4229 מחה by implication to erase; - abolish, blot out, destroy, utterly, wipe (away, out).

Der Alter said:
A fire in thorns that is extinguished does not cease to exist.

the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. H4229 מחה by implication to erase;

Der Alter said:
I already addressed Deu 29:20

H4229 מחה by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out). H3772 כּרת A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume;

Der Alter said:
Why? I'm not here for your amusement.

Why is the Lord laughing then? Ps 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Der Alter said:
What does all this mean to you? Chaff carried away by the wind does not cease to exist.G892 achuron Thayer Definition:
1) a stalk of grain from which the kernels have been beaten out

Merriam-Webster Dictionary Definition of CHAFF: discarded or useless material 1: the seed coverings and other debris separated from the seed in threshing grain

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them up: but gather the wheat into my repository.

Mat 13:38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked.

I guess you cannot understand JESUS when he said: he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.?

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:12 The shovel he uses to sift the wheat from the husks is in his hands. He will clean out his threshing area and bring the wheat into his barn. But he will burn up the husks with a fire that can’t be put out.”

Hos 13:3 Therefore they will be like morning clouds, like early morning dew that evaporates, like chaff blown away from the threshing floor, or like smoke from a chimney."

The destruction of the wicked, and their powerlessness, are likened to the carrying away of chaff by the wind ( Isaiah 17:13 ; Hosea 13:3 ; Zephaniah 2:2 ). M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary

Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Isa 29:5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

Hell

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Newbie

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old.

he-man

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Newbie

he-man

Similar threads