Whither TAW?

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~Anastasia~

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My apologies.

I should perhaps have gone back and completely edited out the personal questions, because in fact I did not want them answered. That's why I said it might be better to just answer them in principle - not that I want to know what's going on with that couple but what ought to be done.

Maybe even that question was out of line. Please forgive me.

I'm having a slightly difficult time in church myself - not the same problem, but a more minor one. It is an issue that one person demonstrates, that is pretty much publicly obvious to everyone. The priest has corrected the person. And the person has given me just slightly a hard time - teasing maybe really? - on the issue. I think my behavior is as it should be, but I am unsure how to respond to the person. And I am trying to mentally remove myself from the situation entirely so I am not faced with having critical thoughts toward someone - but it's near-impossible to pretend not to see/hear what's right in front of you.

I'm sorry. I was hoping some discussion of principle might prove helpful. But I did not wish to ask what was inappropriate. Please do forgive me.
 
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rusmeister

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The center of conflict seems to be that some people think that certain lines of thought are deadly for Christians and the Church in the way that Arius's was, and other people see only innocent difference of opinion. So naturally the former will sound warning bells and the latter will dismiss them and talk about individal piety.

So I guess the question is, IS it possible that an Orthodox person (of good intent) could unwittingly through their teachings introduce heretical ideas in the Orthodox Church, among Orthodox Christians?

I mean, if it's not possible, then the "neo-Nicholites" (who would strike the Arian ideas) are REALLY wasting their time and causing unnecessary division and strife. In that case, they should take a major chill-pill.

But if it IS, then we have to stop talking about individual piety, "focusing on our own sins", etc (something that is granted that we should do all the time - but not to the exclusion of conducting life while we are doing it). If anyone IS promoting fatal ideas, then those ideas have to be rebuked. Church authority and Tradition need to be invoked and made clear.
 
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gzt

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...through their teachings...

This is one of the operative phrases - I think untrained people should refrain from "teaching" without some sort of warrant for it, and people here generally do refrain. Not to mention that most people here, I would say, lack the formal elements of being able to even commit heresy.

But this goes both ways - over-strictness and laxity. Neither is a good witness of the faith.

Fatal ideas, certainly, should be rebuked, but otherwise we shouldn't be too strenuous and get out the litmus strips prematurely.
 
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rusmeister

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There are certainly some things we can admonish and reprove. In fact, the Bible gives us guidelines for how to do so, particularly in the case of a local congregation. Beyond that, it's out of your hands. Do you get the point I'm making? "What is that to you?" as somebody once said in some book.

It's also not pleasant to be accused of opening the door to the gay agenda or told that the arguments being made - though I rarely make arguments - are straight up Episcopalianism. Deal directly, we're not here to debate Episcopalianism.

EDIT: or that we would be soft on Arianism. Or heresy in general. Or that our loyalty to the Church is suspect. Or, etc - I don't seeing people told what they believe or would do.

I would add that it is also unjust to make such accusations - if they are not true.

But I think that it is possible that people might not realize some of the ramifications of their ideas. And I think that people are NOT their ideas, and are in fact free to change them, if they come to think them untrue or mistaken. I say that some ideas, not people, are anathema. "Opening the door to the gay agenda" - teaching or promoting the idea that sexual perversion is not really sin - in the Church, among Orthodox Christians, IS anathema.

Is it possible that some ideas and forms of thinking might lead one to think that?

"What is that to thee?" was in the context of the will of Christ for people's lives, NOT a dismissal of concerns over doctrine. Again, no one is saying we should abandon individual piety. We are saying that there are such things as dangerous and destructive ideas, that people can and have brought into the Church. Don't you agree?
 
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gzt

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I brought it up specifically in reference to his discussion of a fellow parishioner he was discussing with his priest.

As for the "gay agenda", the very mention of science at the beginning of the evolution thread brought it up (somehow?) along with Episcopalianism (somehow?) - when they are really the furthest things from possibility. I would suggest that, generally, accusations of such things should be very, very held back until quite substantiated.
 
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rusmeister

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This is one of the operative phrases - I think untrained people should refrain from "teaching" without some sort of warrant for it, and people here generally do refrain. Not to mention that most people here, I would say, lack the formal elements of being able to even commit heresy.

But this goes both ways - over-strictness and laxity. Neither is a good witness of the faith.

Fatal ideas, certainly, should be rebuked, but otherwise we shouldn't be too strenuous and get out the litmus strips prematurely.

Ahh, you beat me to the punch here. :)

But when I say "teaching", I mean "promote", "speak of as true and try to convince others". So when you say "x is a fact", you are teaching that fact. And people here certainly do NOT refrain from that.

But on heresy - another word that we are not defining and so, talking past each other, I have found this to be the single most helpful definition in aiding clear thinking (and no, it's not Che...):

What is a heresy, and what is the historical importance of such a
thing?

Like most modern words, "Heresy" is used both vaguely and
diversely. It is used vaguely because the modern mind is as averse to
precision in ideas as it is enamored of precision in measurement. It is
used diversely because, according to the man who uses it, it may represent
any one of fifty things.

Today, with most people (of those who use the English language),
the word "Heresy" connotes bygone and forgotten quarrels, an old prejudice against rational examination. Heresy is therefore thought to be of
no contemporary interest. Interest in it is dead, because it deals with
matter no one now takes seriously. It is understood that a man may
interest himself in a heresy from archaeological curiosity, but if he
affirm that it has been of great effect on history and still is, today,
of living contemporary moment, he will be hardly understood.

Yet the subject of heresy in general is of the highest importance
to the individual and to society, and heresy in its particular meaning
(which is that of heresy in Christian doctrine) is of special interest for
anyone who would understand Europe: the character of Europe and the story
of Europe. For the whole of that story, since the appearance of the
Christian religion, has been the story of struggle and change, mainly
preceded by, often, if not always, caused by, and certainly accompanying,
diversities of religious doctrine. In other words, "the Christian heresy"
is a special subject of the very first importance to the comprehension of
European history, because, in company with Christian orthodoxy, it is the
constant accompaniment and agent of European life.


We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a
mental effort and therefore repels.

Heresy is the dislocation of some complete and self-supporting
scheme by the introduction of a novel denial of some essential part
therein.

We mean by "a complete and self-supporting scheme" any system of
affirmation in physics or mathematics or philosophy or what-not, the
various parts of which are coherent and sustain each other.

For instance, the old scheme of physics, often called in England
"Newtonian" as having been best defined by Newton, is a scheme of this
kind. The various things asserted therein about the behaviour of matter,
notably the law of gravity, are not isolated statements any one of which
could be withdrawn at will without disarranging the rest; they are all the
parts of one conception, or unity, such that if you but modify a part the
whole scheme is put out of gear.

You think people incapable of doing this today? (what I understand "lacking the formal elements" to mean)
 
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gzt

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The sin of heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of revealed truth. To be guilty of the sin, you must understand the doctrine, reject it, teach the contrary, and continue after correction by competent authority. No, most people are not formally capable of this sin. They can certainly believe and teach heresies and have some degree of culpability for it. But to really be a heretic, that takes something.
 
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gracefullamb

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NO, he's not. I have had to speak with him about this couple actively trying to STOP ME from going to confession. They have preached Protestantism straight up at everyone they come in contact with. Sola scriptura, fide, gracia, once saved always saved, I'm already covered for my sins, past, present, and future, and confession is folly, etc. They have worked on me to stop confessing.

They said they don't go to confession. He merely said, "that's not true. They did come to confession like everyone else in the parish did during Lent." That's not improper.

ah, ok that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.
 
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rusmeister

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The sin of heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of revealed truth. To be guilty of the sin, you must understand the doctrine, reject it, teach the contrary, and continue after correction by competent authority. No, most people are not formally capable of this sin. They can certainly believe and teach heresies and have some degree of culpability for it. But to really be a heretic, that takes something.

I think you're describing conscious heresy. I think it is very much like sin. We have sins known and unknown, ones we are conscious of and ones we aren't. I think there is also unconscious and unintentional heresy, when through ignorance of something, one teaches contrary to the truth, though I agree that the term is restricted to those within the Church.

And here you still have the problem of authority. Who or what can correct us, tell us if we are wrong about same-sex sexual relations, or women's ordination, or the nature of Church authority? How can we know that a revealed truth is true if someone in the Church disagrees that it is true doctrine? We can't even speak on what heresy is unless we agree on Church authority and what Holy Tradition is. And it has been made plain that we do not all agree.
 
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jckstraw72

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its ok, his avatar doesn't make sense anyways, because at the time when man lived peaceably with animals there was no tilling of the ground required! it was only once man fell and the cosmos was splintered that there was a need to till the ground, and at that point the dinosaurs were also against man and surely not tamed to pull their plows. evolutionists .... i tell ya ....
 
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Tallguy88

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