Question from a former Catholic

Alonso_Castillo said:

Perhaps you have to take into account that current judaism is Talmud based, not necesarily Torah Based, Talmud is an interpretation of torah according to some Babylonic jews who now constitute the majority, but Talmud didn't exist in the times of the Apostles, and Isaiah 66,24 is refered by Jesus as the eternal punishment after life.

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Thank you for that information. I didn't know that the current Jews use the Talmud as their primary reference instead of the Torah. It's no wonder why it's so hard to convince them about the truth about Jesus when their primary religious book was made to act as a counter to the gospel of Jesus. It appears that the Devil was working both ends of it by getting the Pharisees to create the Talmud so that Jews would not be converted to the Messiah while creating the religion of Islam which wars against Christians.

LivingWordUnity said:

Thank you for that information. I didn't know that the current Jews use the Talmud as their primary reference instead of the Torah. It's no wonder it's so hard to convince them about the truth about Jesus when their primary religious book was made to act as a counter to the gospel of Jesus. It appears that the Devil was working both ends of it by getting the Pharisees to create the Talmud so that Jews would not be converted to the Messiah while creating the religion of Islam which wars against Christians.

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The book to which they kneel to is Tanakh, but the book they us to interpret Tanakh is Talmud, And if someone have a Christian interpretation of Tanakh, and rejects Talmud, that one is expelled from judaism and accused of being christian and missioner.

And you are right, Talmud is the big antichristian devil's work to put a wall to jews from converting to christianity, if they only used Tanakh (Tanakh = Torah + Prophets) they all would convert to christianism.

Alonso_Castillo said:

The book to which they kneel to is Tanakh, but the book they us to interpret Tanakh is Talmud, And if someone have a Christian interpretation of Tanakh, and rejects Talmud, that one is expelled from judaism and accused of being christian and missioner.

And you are right, Talmud is the big antichristian devil's work to put a wall to jews from converting to christianity, if they only used Tanakh (Tanakh = Torah + Prophets) they all would convert to christianism.

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I think that's a good analogy for the Talmud. It's a wall between Jews and the Messiah. This also led to the Jews following many various false messiahs who came after Jesus. And Jesus prophesied that this would happen.

UnmaskedHearts said:

The Talmud is commentary for the Tanakh. How is that any different from the Catechism? I'm not trying to get riled up. I did earlier and I started stimming. So I'm going to try and stay as calm as possible.

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The Talmud is a commentary that was created to counter the gospel of Jesus to create a wall between Jews and Jesus. As was said, if the Jews didn't have this commentary most would probably convert to Christianity.

UnmaskedHearts, why, if you truly believe in the Jewish faith and no hell (Christian hell), are you concerned about it? As has been stated, to deny Christ with the sure knowledge, offers up hell to you or anyone in the same boat. Sort of makes me think of the sin against the Holy Spirit.
At any rate, I think that you have some concern about leaving the Church and denying Jesus, does that mean hell. God thankfully does not give up on us untill we die. God bless.

LivingWordUnity said:

It depends on how much you knew about the faith when you left the Catholic Church and whether all of the conditions for mortal sin were met. If all of the conditions for mortal sin were met in you leaving, and if you die without repenting then your soul would end up in Hell. Did you make a diligent attempt to learn and understand all that you can about the Catholic faith before coming to the decision you made? Did you leave the Church because of pressure from someone else? Was your conscience bothering you but you left anyway? Since the time that you left do you miss being able to receive the Eucharist in Holy Communion? If you regret leaving, you can return by making an appointment with your local parish priest. And information and assistance is available at a website called Catholics Come Home. Was your reason for leaving that you are of Jewish ancestry? If so, I recommend a website called Association of Hebrew Catholics.

"Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1859

The 4 Last Things: Hell - by Fr. Wade Menezes, CPM - YouTube


References:
Catholics Come Home
Association of Hebrew Catholics
Mortal Sin and Venial Sin
Pope St. John Paul II teaches about Hell

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I see you know my friend, Fr. Wade...What a great guy.

Root of Jesse said:

I see you know my friend, Fr. Wade...What a great guy.

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Yes! Have that copied in my documents. Totally awesome.

UnmaskedHearts, please listen to the 4 last things. Speaks better than I.

UnmaskedHearts said:

FYI Judaism doesn't believe in hell but I just want the Catholic perspective

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Wasn't Daniel a Jew?

UnmaskedHearts said:

I knew this question would come up. I wasn't going to mention this until the question arose. My mum said I will go to hell if I leave Catholicism. I can normally put that comment behind me but it's coming from my mum and that hurts. So I decided to ask. And whilst talking to LivingWordUnity he gave me his opinion when I said I had only attended CCE classes.

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The question had to be asked. So sorry for the pain you are having. God bless your mom and you.

To say that Judaism is based on the Talmud rather than Scripture is similar to saying that Catholicism is based on the interpretations of the Church rather than Scripture.

Curiously, I have never seen a Jew use a Talmud in liturgy or even quote from it, although folks do occasionally quote from individual rabbis from centuries past (much as we quote the early Church fathers).

BOTTOM LINE
IMHO, Judaism is based on the Torah. I also believe that Catholicism is based on Scripture.

AN ASIDE
If you believe that some have used interpretation of Scripture to oppose the Church, I would point out that this has also taken place within Christianity.

mark46 said:

To say that Judaism is based on the Talmud rather than Scripture is similar to saying that Catholicism is based on the interpretations of the Church rather than Scripture.

Curiously, I have never seen a Jew use a Talmud in liturgy or even quote from it, although folks do occasionally quote from individual rabbis from centuries past (much as we quote the early Church fathers).

BOTTOM LINE
IMHO, Judaism is based on the Torah. I also believe that Catholicism is based on Scripture.

AN ASIDE
If you believe that some have used interpretation of Scripture to oppose the Church, I would point out that this has also taken place within Christianity.

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Ok, you are puting side by side Christianism and Judaism, and you tell us about "Scripture" as a single thing, while it is not the same meaning, For us catholics, The New testament is the fullness of Revelation, the scripture that gives sense to the rest of the Writings of the Prophets and of the Law, Tanakh, and it is by the New Testament that we believe in Jesus as the Messiah and Lord, God himself who comes as it was prophetized in the Old Testament. Even more, the Gospels were writen as testimonies of the compliment of those prophesies and of the mission given to the church to preach Jesus as God and Lord as the Prophets said.

Talmud was writen later to the New testament as a antichristian answer to the Gospels. Talmud was written to deny Jesus, not to explain Tanakh, but to twist Tanakh in order to avoid any reference that may lead to Jesus. But thanks God, in Israel some jews are discovering the Gospels and many of them are converting despite being expelled from their communities.

Apostasy is one of the more obvious roads that lead to hell. The Second Vatican Council teaches in Lumen gentium #14 that the Council ”wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as though a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

That's pretty clear. If you died at this very moment you would go to hell. God forbid! That there is no salvation outside of the Church is only one side of the coin, though. Your mother is absolutely right, but there is an even more important truth to be stated. That there is no salvation outside of the Church means that there is salvation inside the Church, which is the warm embrace of the Mystical Body of Christ. The Catholic Church is not pointing at Jews, Muslims, Hindus and atheists saying “you're all going to hell!” She is standing with her arms open saying “come to me and you will go to heaven.”

I do not know your personal circumstances. I do not know why you chose to enter into a state of apostasy. What I can definitively say is that you have not been led there by God nor cooperated with His grace. I will pray for you and implore you to abandon yourself to prayer. For we are taught that if any non-Catholic has recourse to prayer, they will infallibly and efficaciously be brought to communion with the Holy Catholic Church.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

Servus, stop perverting Catholic teaching, please. The poster in question knows what the Church claims, but does not know it to be true. You do not know what would happen to his soul if he died today and your behavior here has me more concerned for your soul than his.

We can't give an adequate answer to the question since it's about the disposition of her soul. There are factors that can lessen the degree of moral culpability. But this can change over time depending on gained understanding and other factors. So we can't give a sure answer. That's why I recommended that she go to talk to a priest about it and why I also urged her to return to the Catholic Church.

MikeK said:

Servus, stop perverting Catholic teaching, please. The poster in question knows what the Church claims, but does not know it to be true. You do not know what would happen to his soul if he died today and your behavior here has me more concerned for your soul than his.

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do you have any authoritative document from the Catechism, a Council, or a Pope that says that people can leave the Church and still be saved?

you seem really rough on Servus
he is just trying to explain Catholic teachings the best way he can

if he is wrong, show where he is wrong

if not, then I think you owe him an apology for saying he was "perverting Catholic teaching"

MikeK said:

Servus, stop perverting Catholic teaching, please. The poster in question knows what the Church claims, but does not know it to be true. You do not know what would happen to his soul if he died today and your behavior here has me more concerned for your soul than his.

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You condemn me for judging her culpable and yet you in turn judge her inculpable? I pray you at least be consistent. Either we can judge or we cannot judge, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I concede I cannot say infallibly that she is culpable for her apostasy, God alone knows that and God alone will judge it. However, we are commanded by Christ to go, and preach the Gospel. We are told by Holy Church that to procure the salvation of souls, we must evangelise and promote the missions. And the only perversity is one who would sit by and smile as they console themselves with the hypothetical of inculpability to save a person's soul, rather than doing what should be done.

Rather than nitpicking on a minor point in regards to my post, why don't you rather focus your attention on bringing this lost sheep back into the flock of Christ? She has turned her back on the Church, she has renounced her baptism, and she has denied the Holy Incarnation of Christ. Yet you worry about me? See the madness that has gripped the Church today!

You say she knows the claims of the Church, but doesn't “know” them to be true. That is pure nonsense. She was raised Catholic, she received Holy Baptism, she was taught the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Blessed Trinity, and has always had God beside her ready to grant her every grace. Are you saying that God has withheld His grace from her? Either God has withheld His grace from her which means she has left the Church with God doing nothing about it, or God has given her every grace which she has refused to cooperate with and has left the Church in her obstinacy. I know which one is the Catholic answer.

God forbid I ever fall into error. But when I face Christ at my judgement I can at the very least said I tried to win souls for Him. I pray God you will be able to say the same one day.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.