Whither TAW?

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gracefullamb

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Hi all, my Christian name is Anna. I was chrismated in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Joseph was actually there that day for those checking the Orthodox membership cards. Initially I came to CF in order to inquirer into Orthodoxy, mainly because I didn't find everyone here nuts like another board or stuffy like the third board. The original poster has stated this thread isn't because of the evolution thread and well considering he has taken the time to quote a deleted post of mine and another TAWer as the cause of this thread, I'm guessing he wasn't lying. I'm guessing his problem was a book recommendation thread, but maybe I'm wrong and he just really liked my words and felt the need to quote me without saying who it was.

When I came here there was a lot more fellowship and getting to know each other as people as more than just some random words on the internet. It was something that attracted to me this board, the feel of hospitality, like I really was talking to you all at coffee hour. I remember it distinctly because I had jokingly asked if I brought beer, chips, and salsa could I join you on the front porch. Rob's response was to jokingly ask what type of chips I was offering and then tell me I could stay since he like my choice. I also remember distinctly how much time Michael spent with me in PM answering questions, the poor man must have felt imposed on at some point. At that time there was less of this us v. them feel to threads, even when it was a debate thread, let alone people simply wanting to discuss a topic. There seemed to be more fellowship and honestly more debate going on about what beer, or acid rock song was the best and what the major theme of a movie was. The biggest controversy was over should women cover their heads and the tollhouses, not so much of stuff that really has no effect on our salvation regardless of how we believe. I liked it then, I felt like I was hanging out with old friends then, and not at a political debate to see who gets elected.

For you old timers another name from the past for you- Akathist (she went by Xenia Rose then) had taken the time, without me asking her, to find a church for me that was convert friendly, then passed on the address and phone #. That is now my home church and has been since then. I have often wondered this past year and half with her background what she would write on the LGBT threads if she were still here. I'm guessing she probably would have had the same problem I did with a member of TAW calling for bashing in the heads of LGBT members and Lobbyists. Though I wonder if she would have been called a liberal Christian, accused of wanting to change the church, and of being a feminist, as I was. I'm actually still confused of why a member of TAW felt the need to send me a PM claiming I was feminist because I said "if the way to deal with LGBT sins was stoning do we actually act like Christians with sins of violence." If you can figure that one out share, because in the last year I have been accused of denying Church authority, being a liberal Christian, wanting to change the church, ordain women, and allow same sex marriage. Ironically by people who have never once said these things in posts for others to read, nah, then they act like I'm their best buddy. Funny enough the few people on TAW who know me actually are just as baffled as me by those who don't know me accusing me of these things.

But I digress, the thread that lead to this, based on the OP own explanation in earlier posts, was a book recommendation thread; where the OP of that thread never stated his own thoughts on what should be done concerning LGBT, never said his position on the matter nor stated once he disagreed with Church teaching, beliefs or authority. He simply passed on some books from both sides of he aisle since he was asked a year ago to share the info he'd find and he left it at that for others to decide to read the books or not.

Here is a thought for those so quick to shoot off their mouth claiming someone has denounced Church teaching and isn't really Orthodox, maybe consider asking them for clarification instead of acting like a tree squirrel leaping from one branch to the next because of your preconceived conclusions but not their actual words and beliefs.
 
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Romans 15:1-7 (Epistle)

1We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves.2Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification.3For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me.” 4For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.5Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus,6that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.7Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.

If we are able to discern the meaning of this scripture, which is to be read today (Sunday, July 27) at the Liturgy, then we will perhaps understand, "Whither TAW?".


Please forgive me for any lack of patience and the giving of comfort toward any of you that I have been guilty of.
 
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Well I know what some people are talking about, am clueless about others. As far as the LGBT stuff goes, nobody wishes them "bashed in the head." That's hyperbole to be sure. What I have heard people say is that people suffering with same-sex attraction are like any of the rest of us, struggling with sin. But the inappropriate content addict doesn't give in to inappropriate content and just give up and try to be Orthodox AND an unrepentant inappropriate content junkie. The alcoholic doesn't just give in to the bottle and come to Divine Liturgy inebriated and giving up. The adulterer doesn't keep cheating. The liar doesn't keep lying. We go to Confession, pick ourselves up, admit our sin, acknowledge the Church knows better than we do, and keep up the marathon Paul admonishes us to run. Same with folks suffering same-sex attraction. But SSA sufferers cannot stay in their relationships, keep committing sodomy, advocate for "gay marriage," and fight for active SSA lifestyle folks to adopt kids, etc. AND still be good Orthodox Christians. That is what I've heard regarding that community. I don't know of anyone in here who wants them burned at the stake or dismembered and charred in a giant hole in the ground. And I don't recall anyone with that level of loathing.

Supporting ACTIVELY sexual ssa-suffering folks to take communion and keep considering themselves in good standing with the Orthodox Church is not ok.

Evolution is not a dogmatic issue, and I kept hearing the pro-Creation/anti-Evolution posters saying that. I heard those posters repeatedly saying that they disagree with evolution, but being pro-evolution doesn't excommunicate one from the faith. I heard that statement over and over. But what I did see the OP get frustrated about in the midst of the evolution wars (Star Wars had the Clone Wars, we have the Episode I of TAW: The Evolution Wars! :p) was how some posters openly said they could care less what the Church's stance was, that the Church was flat out wrong, and that authority is a moving target. It wasn't because of evolution, it was their actual statements that authority isn't that important and can really just be discarded here and there. That got the OP hot and bothered.

By and large TAW is still a pretty decent place. Everyone gets their panties in a wad over something from time to time. Rus has gotten critical of me for liking Star Trek because of Roddenberry's atheism. I understand his point, and he isn't going to say I'm not Orthodox for liking Spock, Kirk, and McCoy! Dot got pretty miffed at me for liking the Walking Dead. It wasn't a fun conversation and we got pretty tense in the conversations, but I don't think Dot wants me excommunicated for liking zombie shows.

There have always been these little spats, so it's not like suddenly TAW turned a 180? There have always been the pro-Father Seraphim Rose folks who deeply respect and admire him, and there are the folks who can't stand Father Rose. My parish priest really doesn't like his opinions or books one bit. Life goes on. Nobody is suggesting you're not Orthodox for not buying all Father Rose's books?

There are Republicans and Democrats in here.

I'm a Giants fan, and I'm sure somewhere there are Orthodox Dodger fans. While perhaps that IS an offense which should warrant excommunication, I'll support some economia in that area! ^_^:p

I don't know about the women priests thing. That certainly is BAD opinion and contrary to the Church, and flat out theologically lousy. Not sure when that ever came up?

Rus quotes Chesterton in practically every single post. That turns some people off. Some get tired of it, and Rus and I have even gotten into arguments about it, but both respect each other....and I LIKE Chesterton! But some people see Rus's sharing of Chesterton as a real boon and are deeply thankful for it!

TAW is a bunch of Orthodox Christians who are part of the Orthodox family....and families argue. They argue about substantive stuff (evolution...church authority) and they argue about overquoting, they argue about movies and T.V.....they argue about food, cultures, politics, you name it.

We've argued. Life goes on. But I don't think TAW is any better or worse than it was a few years ago when I first came here. Seems the same to me. Perhaps we're either getting overly sensitive or there is something deeper that I'm missing....?
 
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rusmeister

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Hi, GL (or should I call you Anna?)
On "membership cards". I think jurisdiction a serious issue. Is there such a thing as schismatic churches? Is it not possible that a person who is not in fact in our communion could claim to be, either in deceit or in honest error? If a person comes from, say, the Indian Orthodox Church, or a "True Orthodox Church", etc, and promotes soul sleep, or universalism, or whatever, would not all misunderstanding and potential strife be quickly resolved by determining that the person is not in the EOC in the first place?

This is stuff that CF doesn't get into, require, or see as important, but to us it is.

Light conversation is a fine thing. I can have it with great Roman Catholics, Baptists, etc as well as Orthodox. But real relationship, unless two people live within a stone's throw from each other, is not really possible. Kindness is, but when there is genuine disagreement about anything we think important, then argument is inevitable.

"We must argue"
"CREEDS must disagree: it is the whole fun of the thing. If I think the universe is triangular, and you think it is square, there cannot be room for two universes. We may argue politely, we may argue humanely, we may argue with great mutual benefit; but, obviously, we must argue. Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a silence. To say that I must not deny my opponent's faith is to say I must not discuss it . . . It is absurd to have a discussion on Comparative Religions if you don't compare them."

The failures, including my own, have been in an insufficiency of love in speaking what we believe to be the truth, and I am trying to learn to lean toward loving more in my electronic relations.

But the question really is about what Church authority is, and whether it may correct me or not. The danger is if
a) any of us should say there really is none, as one of the two posters most openly rejecting that authority has said, or so multiplex that in practice ancient teachings, held as certain for nearly two millennia, may and/or should be abandoned in the name of a "dynamic approach to theology", as the other holds, (in short, that the Church needs to learn from the world),
Or
B) we should in theory accept Tradition, but in practice hold that it may correct anyone but myself, that I am the ultimate arbiter of what Tradition is.

To gzt (Hi!)
I'm not sure if you picked up when I said I think we can all think and believe things that are not true, yet be members in communion with the Church. I think that some of those things, if thought through to the end, do in fact deny Orthodox doctrine (astrology being an example that I hope is not controversial here). But I think that the person who goes to Church, confesses and receives the Eucharist, then goes home and reads and even arranges his or her life according to a horoscope may be foolish, but not in rebellion. We are at different stages and places in life. When we learn something is wrong, we correct it to line up with what we now understand that the Church teaches. I think that applies everywhere. Of course, I can only measure that by what I've learned, not by what I haven't. At any rate, whether our error is in believing in astrology, or "young" - or "old" - earth creation, or in black cats crossing the road, or in "transgenderism", etc etc, as long as we accept that, over time, we want the Church to correct us, and line us up ever more with the will of God, we're OK. The problem is when people develop views that make it impossible for the Church to correct them, as they, knowingly or not, deny the authority that can correct them.

And I agree with GL completely that there is a danger of misconstruing a person's words and therefore beliefs. But I also think it is possible to actually and really understand them. And if there IS such a thing as Orthodoxy, then it has a definable shape, and there are things outside of that shape which we may be right to say are not Orthodox. It may be "shooting off one's mouth", though I think that to refer to the person who misconstrues due to carelessness - we wouldn't say that about a person saying, even quickly, something we thought true and important.
 
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ArmyMatt

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personally, from what I have seen, there as been an improvement to TAW since I have been here. folks from what I have seen have become more friendly and welcoming to seekers and inquirers. as gurney points out, yeah we argue about stuff. I remember back in the day there were folks who used the Church to springboard their political views in every post they could.

in this last firestorm, yes, gzt and myself were on opposite sides of the evolution issue, but unless I am mistaken, we both hold the Church as the authority of the faith. the disagreement is where evolution fits in. the point of this thread was not something like evolution, the toll houses, Fr Seraphim Rose vs Fr Alexander Schmemann, St Tikhon's vs St Vlad's vs Holy Cross, etc, but rather are we really Orthodox if we feel that we do not need to listen to the authority of the Church. for the most part since I have joined TAW many a year ago, even when disagree, we still look to the Church as our reference point.
 
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Since I've come to Orthodoxy, I've changed my mind on things. I was determined to let the Church change ME, not let my intellect or private opinions try to change the Church. I'm not looking for a place to leave my mark or make a statement or find agreement. I'm trying to let the Church change and mold ME. If we don't submit to authority or at bare minimum consider our hierarchs' opinions heavily, then why be Orthodox? We really cease to be Orthodox, and enter into Protestant territory.

With the evolution argument, I came into Orthodoxy with a heavy bias and was VERY pro-evolution. While I have a small area in my feeble noodle that says it's 'possible,' I have looked at the Church. And the greatest minds of Orthodoxy before and after Darwin have rejected evolution completely. We've seen no compelling reason from our hierarchs to accept evolution. As a result, I go with the faith. I also look at the issue in a theological frame work. It makes no sense. So, I am at peace with this.

But ignoring and shrugging off authority makes no sense to me...

personally, from what I have seen, there as been an improvement to TAW since I have been here. folks from what I have seen have become more friendly and welcoming to seekers and inquirers. as gurney points out, yeah we argue about stuff. I remember back in the day there were folks who used the Church to springboard their political views in every post they could.

in this last firestorm, yes, gzt and myself were on opposite sides of the evolution issue, but unless I am mistaken, we both hold the Church as the authority of the faith. the disagreement is where evolution fits in. the point of this thread was not something like evolution, the toll houses, Fr Seraphim Rose vs Fr Alexander Schmemann, St Tikhon's vs St Vlad's vs Holy Cross, etc, but rather are we really Orthodox if we feel that we do not need to listen to the authority of the Church. for the most part since I have joined TAW many a year ago, even when disagree, we still look to the Church as our reference point.
 
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rusmeister

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Since I've come to Orthodoxy, I've changed my mind on things. I was determined to let the Church change ME, not let my intellect or private opinions try to change the Church. I'm not looking for a place to leave my mark or make a statement or find agreement. I'm trying to let the Church change and mold ME. If we don't submit to authority or at bare minimum consider our hierarchs' opinions heavily, then why be Orthodox? We really cease to be Orthodox, and enter into Protestant territory.

With the evolution argument, I came into Orthodoxy with a heavy bias and was VERY pro-evolution. While I have a small area in my feeble noodle that says it's 'possible,' I have looked at the Church. And the greatest minds of Orthodoxy before and after Darwin have rejected evolution completely. We've seen no compelling reason from our hierarchs to accept evolution. As a result, I go with the faith. I also look at the issue in a theological frame work. It makes no sense. So, I am at peace with this.

But ignoring and shrugging off authority makes no sense to me...

Absolutely.
You guys know that I have strong opinions about public education and the good of political action. But whatever they are, they have to fit within the framework of Church dogma. The Church changes and teaches me, not the other way around. You can't even begin to teach others in the Church until you first acknowledge that, the primacy of the sum of Tradition over me and my opinions; that I may be wrong, but the Church in its consensus over space and time is NOT wrong and needs no correction ("dynamic theology") from us. But at least a couple here DON'T acknowledge it, yet propose to teach, and even become priests. They speak of a living Tradition, and misunderstand "living" to mean "changing" rather than eternal. And that will disrupt the unity of Orthodox Christians, and if sufficiently widespread, could bring down a local Church.

I think what we need is a clear statement on what Holy Tradition is including the necessity of our submitting to it, agreed upon by nearly all, and stickied. If we can't manage that, then this place is a waste of time.

And so, we need a thread on Church authority. Too bad the one I started got locked.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I would actually have been interested in discussing church authority. I was sorry that it couldn't be carried out here, now. However, I know it was too fresh and being brought into particular situations, and it would probably be much safer to discuss in a general sense.

I thought I'd give it some time. :)
 
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Macarius

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Good heavens the passive aggressive insults in this thread alone are enough to belie any claim Rus has to being something other than a bully.

Seriously, Rus - could you be any poorer at veiling your condescension?

Let's just get this straight, since my book recommendation post seems to have spawned all this:

1) I had promised those recommendations before I left. I was fulfilling that. I've compiled a bibliography of over 200 entries on the subject matter, and selected FIVE (five!) texts to recommend that, quite carefully, presented multiple sides of the issue and were dominated by Orthodox voices - several of which I disagree with but respect or find important for the conversation.

2) You decided, largely without prompting, to insult the very concept of academics even trying to address this question, and, therefore, decided to derail my thread and flame me repeatedly - which you self-righteously [again!] defend in this very thread here as somehow consonant with the old crusading spirit of TAW.

This was despite the fact that several of the recommended books were from non-academics, and most were from Orthodox sources (including one Orthodox academic, and two other educated Orthodox non-scholars).

3) You decided, based on my interest in this topic and whatever else you please, that I was somehow undermining the very authority of the church because, when I read the Tradition, I don't come to the same conclusions regarding it that you do.

Rather than dialogue with me about that - that is, rather than read the Tradition together (which actually WOULD be in the Spirit of this board) - you preferred to shout anathema at me and state, repeatedly, that you'd never discuss this with me but would instead "kick it to the curb."

That thread, shockingly!, got locked for flaming. You then made another thread where you, quite repeatedly, took to stating very similar sorts of attacks as the locked thread - in essence, you were justifying the very behavior you demonstrated in the first locked thread.

Shockingly, that one also got locked. Surprise!

And then, lo and behold, you make another thread dealing with the same thing from yet another angle, and again make repeated thinly-veiled references to our prior conversation in the most passive aggressive tones.

How THIS thread hasn't been locked for flaming is beyond me.

TAW isn't your personal safe-haven. It is a safe-haven for Orthodox Christians. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are a lot of Orthodox Christians who are quite like me, and who see Orthodoxy the way I see it.

Orthodoxy is not synonymous with your brand of Chestertonian-conservativism or fundamentalism. It just isn't. That's certainly ONE brand of Orthodoxy. You'll notice I've not considered YOUR presence here as a "threat" to the Spirit of TAW; nor have I shouted Anathema at YOU or made thread after thread questioning your Orthodoxy or your presence here.

But again, here are the facts:
1) We both read the Tradition.

[I would hazard a guess that I actually read more of it than you, just by virtue of time and resources, but I don't think that gives me a leg-up on you (or anyone) in understanding it. I refuse, however, to accept a "Chesterton Only" lens for reading the Tradition, just as I refuse a "Neo-Patristic Only" lens for reading it.]

2) We are both, so far as I know, in communion in good standing with an Orthodox Bishop.

3) We are here to discuss Orthodoxy, both with one another and with inquirers.

If you can't agree to 1, 2, or 3 then yeah - you have a problem with pride since there's no way for you to (fairly) judge any of those three.

If you think that 1, 2, or 3 don't belong on TAW then, yeah, you have a problem with the ACTUAL purpose of this board.

If you think that 1, 2, or 3 leave room for you to bully people and shout them "to the curb" when you dislike them or what they have to say, then, yeah, you have a problem.

But the problem isn't with TAW.

So whither TAW? Whence TAW? It's an internet message board, Rus. At its best it is a place to fellowship and welcome inquirers, to discuss difficult issues with others who take those issues seriously and are committed to Orthodox Christianity. And also a place to be challenged by those who don't see things the way that we do, but who none-the-less partake of the same Chalice and the same Grace.

That's the board I've always remembered, and the reason I stuck around. If you don't want that, then I don't know what to say.

But I won't go away. I won't let you bully me. And you were rightfully accused of hubris.

I welcome a discussion. I welcome partaking of the same Chalice as you. I recognize that, despite our disagreements, we both seek after Christ and are both Orthodox Christians. Therefore, we both belong on TAW.

Can you say the same?

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Hi Mac,

When you say that there are a lot of Orthodox Christians in here who see Orthodoxy as you see it, I'm a little fuzzy on that. What do you mean? How do you see it? And you call Rus a "Chestertonian Conservative." I'm not sure what that means? Yeah, the guy's pretty taken with GKC, I kind of picked up on that :p, but was Chesterton "conservative?" And would you say you're a "liberal?" I'm not sure about all these labels and what they mean?

Often times "liberal" in Christian discussions means that someone is ok with women's ordination or gay marriages or this LGBT stuff, buy into the transgender stuff, are loosey-goosey with sex and cohabitation, some are pro-abortion, yada yada. I'm not sure what a "liberal" Orthodox Christian would look like. I imagine it would be pretty scary. But a super conservative one might be equally scary?!

I guess I'm confused at the fundamentals are that you and Rus disagree about? I know it must go further than mere topics like evolution. It gets down to authority. What do you two disagree about most and would you lay out the issues for me here? Honestly, I have taken a great deal away from both you and Rus through my few years here. Frankly, the way you framed many things about Orthodoxy actually helped convince me to convert. I'm not just saying that. Your IM's with me were extremely helpful and provided real clarity with history, the papacy, Catholic vs. Orthodox issues I hadn't completely analyzed carefully, and your depiction of the Orthodox journey to theosis was very enlightening. You helped me a lot. I will always be grateful to you for that.

But I'm not sure how Rus is a "fundamentalist?"

I hate seeing TAW be a place for warfare, but I guess we need to really spell out our differences and talk through them with civility and try to flush the poison out of our wounds here to heal. I can't imagine TAW without you, and I can't imagine it without Rus either. He and I battled for a long time. When I first came here, he and I wanted to strangle each other till our eyes bulged out! ^_^:p But I think he is a very grounded guy. He helps us to focus on things in here like language. We use secular terms so much that we forget how important language is in shaping our thought processes. I have appreciated his thoughts on it. I also appreciate the fact that he goes to the Fathers, the hierarchs, and when he sees them deliberate and teach on an issue and society going against it, I do understand his frustration that people are so willing to go with the seculars over our Church! I don't see him so much as a fundamentalist as a guy who is frustrated that we can't all agree, as Orthodox Christians, on rubrics of right and wrong and moral compasses. I see him strongly advocating objective morality, and holding up ideals yet keeping economia in play as well. I think from time to time his Chesterton links or quotes have been helpful, other times I'm dizzy from hearing the man's name and would love to hear Rus cite someone else. :p But I "get" why Rus is so fond of Chesterton as well. And yet I wouldn't use Chesterton as my epicenter for theology either.

I think we need to politely spell out the differences, keeping it in laymen's terms and not getting off into monastery/seminary speak. Your posts are in such scholarly language that sometimes I have to re-read them a few times to make sure I took that all in! ^_^ But also, we just need to spell out the differences clearly and succinctly. I think you're both talking past each other and perhaps either getting your wires crossed or making things too personal. I've never seen Rus get this personal, and I've never seen you do the same either. You guys are both acting out of character in the way you interface.

We need to hammer out the differences and really be clear.

I'm noticing that you have "progressive Orthodox Christian" by your name. I never saw you label yourself that way before. And I wonder, like I said earlier, what that means? "Progressive?" Progressive is usually a euphemism in the secular world for "liberal modernist." Now I'm DEFINITELY NOT labeling or charging you with that, Mac. I'm asking you what you think that means? You'll pardon my past. I was in the Anglican Church for around seven years, and "progressive" gives me goose pimples and raises and eyebrow when I see it because that usually means, "I am pro-women's ordination! I'd be ok with gays marrying! Hey, let's change the liturgy to be more hip! I'm ok with 'transgender' boys using girls' bathrooms! What's the big deal about cohabitation? What's so bad about ______________" etc. etc. Progressive has the base word "progress" in it which implies the Church is growing, not quite where it should be yet, lacking, needs enlightenment from old-school backwards thinking. That's always how I've seen it. And my Anglican (originally Episcopalian, Lord have mercy!) background actually has made me THANK GOD that Orthodoxy is NOT progressive! I've been something of a naïve dullard for a few years thinking Orthodoxy to be very uniform and traditional in morals. Yet for some reason lately I've seen more liberal thinking in Orthodoxy than ever! So, I guess I'd like you to spell out just what a "progressive Orthodox" is? I truly don't know what that looks like? I think Rus was attempting to flush this out and get us to talk about what authority means to us and it got locked?

This whole thing confuses the heck out of me. I'm just sad and disappointed at how things have unraveled lately...

Good heavens the passive aggressive insults in this thread alone are enough to belie any claim Rus has to being something other than a bully.

Seriously, Rus - could you be any poorer at veiling your condescension?

Let's just get this straight, since my book recommendation post seems to have spawned all this:

1) I had promised those recommendations before I left. I was fulfilling that. I've compiled a bibliography of over 200 entries on the subject matter, and selected FIVE (five!) texts to recommend that, quite carefully, presented multiple sides of the issue and were dominated by Orthodox voices - several of which I disagree with but respect or find important for the conversation.

2) You decided, largely without prompting, to insult the very concept of academics even trying to address this question, and, therefore, decided to derail my thread and flame me repeatedly - which you self-righteously [again!] defend in this very thread here as somehow consonant with the old crusading spirit of TAW.

This was despite the fact that several of the recommended books were from non-academics, and most were from Orthodox sources (including one Orthodox academic, and two other educated Orthodox non-scholars).

3) You decided, based on my interest in this topic and whatever else you please, that I was somehow undermining the very authority of the church because, when I read the Tradition, I don't come to the same conclusions regarding it that you do.

Rather than dialogue with me about that - that is, rather than read the Tradition together (which actually WOULD be in the Spirit of this board) - you preferred to shout anathema at me and state, repeatedly, that you'd never discuss this with me but would instead "kick it to the curb."

That thread, shockingly!, got locked for flaming. You then made another thread where you, quite repeatedly, took to stating very similar sorts of attacks as the locked thread - in essence, you were justifying the very behavior you demonstrated in the first locked thread.

Shockingly, that one also got locked. Surprise!

And then, lo and behold, you make another thread dealing with the same thing from yet another angle, and again make repeated thinly-veiled references to our prior conversation in the most passive aggressive tones.

How THIS thread hasn't been locked for flaming is beyond me.

TAW isn't your personal safe-haven. It is a safe-haven for Orthodox Christians. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are a lot of Orthodox Christians who are quite like me, and who see Orthodoxy the way I see it.

Orthodoxy is not synonymous with your brand of Chestertonian-conservativism or fundamentalism. It just isn't. That's certainly ONE brand of Orthodoxy. You'll notice I've not considered YOUR presence here as a "threat" to the Spirit of TAW; nor have I shouted Anathema at YOU or made thread after thread questioning your Orthodoxy or your presence here.

But again, here are the facts:
1) We both read the Tradition.

[I would hazard a guess that I actually read more of it than you, just by virtue of time and resources, but I don't think that gives me a leg-up on you (or anyone) in understanding it. I refuse, however, to accept a "Chesterton Only" lens for reading the Tradition, just as I refuse a "Neo-Patristic Only" lens for reading it.]

2) We are both, so far as I know, in communion in good standing with an Orthodox Bishop.

3) We are here to discuss Orthodoxy, both with one another and with inquirers.

If you can't agree to 1, 2, or 3 then yeah - you have a problem with pride since there's no way for you to (fairly) judge any of those three.

If you think that 1, 2, or 3 don't belong on TAW then, yeah, you have a problem with the ACTUAL purpose of this board.

If you think that 1, 2, or 3 leave room for you to bully people and shout them "to the curb" when you dislike them or what they have to say, then, yeah, you have a problem.

But the problem isn't with TAW.

So whither TAW? Whence TAW? It's an internet message board, Rus. At its best it is a place to fellowship and welcome inquirers, to discuss difficult issues with others who take those issues seriously and are committed to Orthodox Christianity. And also a place to be challenged by those who don't see things the way that we do, but who none-the-less partake of the same Chalice and the same Grace.

That's the board I've always remembered, and the reason I stuck around. If you don't want that, then I don't know what to say.

But I won't go away. I won't let you bully me. And you were rightfully accused of hubris.

I welcome a discussion. I welcome partaking of the same Chalice as you. I recognize that, despite our disagreements, we both seek after Christ and are both Orthodox Christians. Therefore, we both belong on TAW.

Can you say the same?

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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gzt

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Out it comes.
 

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Why the litmus test jokes? I don't see the point? Nobody is testing anything or calling anyone not Orthodox? But don't we all need to have a common moral compass that our Church has taught us for the past two millennia? Why when anyone wants to discuss issues now do people throw out the litmus test thing and get defensive? I don't remember this ever happening on TAW until lately?
 
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rusmeister

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Really.

Mac, I'll come back to what I see to be the central problem in what you've brought up that triggered my response. That sort of thing takes more energy and time on my part; usually it's harder for me to put the time required into those kinds of responses.
My best friend is also awaiting a response from me on a discussion on truth.

Too many terms being thrown down without definition - and if we don't have common definitions we'll still talk past each other.

GL - are you saying there is NO definition to Orthodoxy? That it can be anything and everything? Because that's what the "litmus test" allusion implies; that a thing ought not to be defined, because it draws boundaries. It is a term popularized by the champions of what is popularly called secular pluralism. It didn't exist even sixty years ago, and not one Church father ever spoke that way.
Figurative use of litmus test is first attested 1957
OED


Not one reference here to GK Che... ooops!
:p
(I think I should put that as a signature to every such post. And there are more of them than local hyperbole holds.)
 
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If I were you Rus I would copy paste and print out all the stuff you wrote, show it to a few people and not reveal that it was you who wrote it, and ask them how it's coming across.

"Rather than dialogue with me about that - that is, rather than read the Tradition together (which actually WOULD be in the Spirit of this board) - you preferred to shout anathema at me and state, repeatedly, that you'd never discuss this with me but would instead "kick it to the curb."

I would add not reading/listening, but rather, having a knee jerk reaction, assuming that if someone disagrees with you (or in my case actually agrees with you more than you think, but had you read what I wrote and asked questions for clarification, you would have seen that) they are in on this grand liberal conspiracy to undermine the Church, shoving what I and others wrote through a very fundamentalist/conservative sieve, making the end results look something very different from what was originally said.
 
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jckstraw72

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for what it's worth, i dont think Rus uses GKC as his epicenter of theology. it seems to me that he points to GKC as clear thinker, who taught him how to think - but he has also noted several times that he sees GKC's mistakes as well. Similarly, Rene Guenon taught Fr. Seraphim to love tradition, but he also saw through his mistakes and found his way to Orthodoxy.

and also, for what it's worth, I'm probably the only one on this board who has met Rus in person - and I had absolutely no sense that he was a bully. What I saw was a very gracious father and friend who really cares about his Orthodox faith. i don't believe he's out to get anyone.
 
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gracefullamb

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Really.

Mac, I'll come back to what I see to be the central problem in what you've brought up that triggered my response. That sort of thing takes more energy and time on my part; usually it's harder for me to put the time required into those kinds of responses.
My best friend is also awaiting a response from me on a discussion on truth.

Too many terms being thrown down without definition - and if we don't have common definitions we'll still talk past each other.

GL - are you saying there is NO definition to Orthodoxy? That it can be anything and everything? Because that's what the "litmus test" allusion implies; that a thing ought not to be defined, because it draws boundaries. It is a term popularized by the champions of what is popularly called secular pluralism. It didn't exist even sixty years ago, and not one Church father ever spoke that way.
OED


Not one reference here to GK Che... ooops!
:p
(I think I should put that as a signature to every such post. And there are more of them than local hyperbole holds.)

:doh:There you go again jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived beliefs of the person. Stop! No where did I write that. I made a joke at gzt's posting of the picture, there is nothing more to my post than that, just a joke about the picture being posted, not agreement nor disagreement with it and no hidden deep meaning to my joke, not even in some invisible font, so quit reading more into it than that. I AM ORTHODOX, IN GOOD STANDING AND I DO SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY! *note: in caps in hopes you will actually read what I write for once and nothing more, not cause I'm shouting.*
 
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