Revelation 12 The Church, and those counted worthy to escape

2P2P = the belief that there are two separate peoples and programs running skew but simultaneous all through the bible. The land and genetics of Israel and the believers. Paul makes it very clear in Rom 4, 9, Gal 3-4, Eph 2-3, Acts 17 that no such thing ever existed. The children of the (Abraham's) promise always were believers.

he was hailed king of kings to fulfill the legal part of his right to redeem the great kings who died long ago.

Douggg said:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The passage in Daniel 9 is speaking of his arrival in Jerusalem. He was not hailed as the messiah, which means the King of Israel, in Jerusalem until that last passover week.

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Jesus was the Messiah long before he was hailed as the Messiah. But if you have any scripture that proves that Jesus did not become the Messiah until he arrived in Jerusalem, I would appreciate it if you post it. I am always seeking to prove what I believe is wrong. I know that may seem strange; but anyone can prove they are right, if they ignore enough scripture and post out of context.

This is a little long, so please read carefully:


So, some of the disciples knew he was the Messiah the first time they met him. So did John the Baptist.

Like I said earlier, the Messiah showed up at the beginning of the 70th week, and preached the kingdom of God for a half-week, at which time he was crucified (cut off in Daniel 9:26):



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He was king of kings legally, and proclaimed king of kings and sorry but you can't can't prove differently!

Inner planner maybe you need to stay out hebrews for awhile until you get up close and personal their king who by the way didn't even talk to many gentiles when he was here... because he was Israel's KING ! because this is all about legalities and it is all about inheritances proclaimed since he first handed them out..( principalities , powers and promises of his Universe ) and you are trying to usurp his promises and that won't fly.

OneAccordRM said:

What are you talking about?

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem 457bc unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Seven weeks + three score and two = 483 years.

After the 69th week, Christ is crucified.

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How long after the 69th week was Christ crucified?


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Rev20 said:

Jesus was the Messiah long before he was hailed as the Messiah. But if you have any scripture that proves that Jesus did not become the Messiah until he arrived in Jerusalem, I would appreciate it if you post it. I am always seeking to prove what I believe is wrong. I know that may seem strange; but anyone can prove they are right, if they ignore enough scripture and post out of context.

This is a little long, so please read carefully:

"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour. One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ." -- Jn 1:32-41​

So, some of the disciples knew he was the Messiah the first time they met him. So did John the Baptist.

Like I said earlier, the Messiah showed up at the beginning of the 70th week, and preached the kingdom of God for a half-week, at which time he was crucified (cut off in Daniel 9:26):

"… for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." -- Isa 53:8​

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It is not a question on when Jesus became the one that God decided to be the messiah, because Jesus was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. It is when Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah because that is what the prophecy in Daniel 9 is based on. The 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people, Israel, and Jerusalem.

The prophecy in Daniel 9 does not say anything about how long Jesus was to preach the kingdom. The prophecy is about when he arrived in Jerusalem and him being cutoff in Jerusalem, which all happened basically at the same time, 4 days separation.

The messiah in Daniel 9 is not cutoff at a half week designation. That part is not in the text.

I gave you the verses in Luke 18 about him about to enter Jerusalem to fulfill what the prophets said about him. And in Luke 19 as him being hailed as the King, in terms of the Jews and Israel. 4 days later, he was crucified. No half week designation of the messiah being cutoff in Daniel 9. Accept it and move forward.

The "for 7 years" are not a 7 year peace treaty as has been popularized. Mostly based on Daniel 8, that the Antichrist will destroy many by peace. But it is the "for 7 years" cycle of the commemorative reading law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11.

I have asked the Jews (Judaism) if they have been observing that law and they told me "no" because it has to be read from the place of God's choosing which they take to be the temple mount. Obviously, the muslims aren't going to allow that sort of commemoration be done that the land was given to the Jews and their descendants forever. Which the vacating of the muslims corresponds to Ezekiel 39. With the 7 years coming right after Gog/Magog.

Also can be ascertained by the text of Ezekiel 39, by the two feasts. The first is in Ezekiel 39:4 on Gog's army. Then the next prophecy in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon feast, 7 years later.

The 7 years being the 7 years of Daniel 9, which is the last week to begin when the Anti-messiah arrives as the prince who shall come, playing the role of the Jews anticipated messiah, King of Israel, resetting the 7 years cycle. The false prophet will actually be the person doing the reading, most likely. And anointing the Antichrist as King of Israel.

I don't know why Dan 9 can't refer to all the work Christ did. An approximate 3.5 years was meant.

You'd have to show why the antecedent of v27 can't return to Christ.

You'd have to show why the cutting off could not coincide with the end of sacrifice and offering, and why that phrase in Hebrews.

Whether it relates to Dt or not, there are 7 weeks to account for. They need to include Christ's accomplishements, and the desolation. "War continues to the end" fills the empty 2nd 3.5 years according to most commentators.

If 27 returns to Messiah, then to confirm a covenant is positive and is the new covenant.

OneAccordRM said:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Wonder in heaven, so we know its a sign that needs to be explained with what God has already given us in Scripture.

Clothed with the Sun

Church clothed with Jesus Christ (or his righteousness)

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That's what some conclude...but this is not the picture of Revelation 12:1-5:

Revelation 12:1
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
This is none than Israel the nation! She is the woman. This goes back to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11..Read that.

*Jacob is the sun

*Rachel is the moon

*The 12 stars are Joseph and his 11 brothers

From them (Jacob, Rachel, and their 12 sons), the nation of Israel comes into existence. Jacob's name was change to "Israel" by God.

Revelation 12:2
2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Israel is to bring forth Messiah. This is what is happening here. Jesus is about to be born...from the tribe of Judah!

Revelation 12:3, 4
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

This is Satan, using Rome to stop the birth of Jesus! He fails though! The account is Matthew 2:7-12...as Caesar Augustus calls for a census, Jesus is born, yet Herod tries to kill Jesus and commits genocide killing all children 2 years old and under.

Revelation 12:5;
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

What you have there is a brief picture of Jesus birth and ascension. The reference of "rule the nations with a rod of iron" is Psalm 2:9...it's none other than Jesus, and Jesus is the only one cuaght up to God and His throne...Act 1:9 also Hebrews 1:1-12.

OneAccordRM said:

Jesus Promises Christians will also rule with a rod of Iron and sit on Gods throne with him, or do you deny that?

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Jesus said we will rule and reign with Him! That's going on now...or do you deny Ephesians 2:4-6:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

As it says...we're SEATED with Christ RIGHT NOW!

OneAccordRM said:

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

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We all overcome in Christ....because He ocercame the world John 16:33:
33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

OneAccordRM said:

So the Woman Is Israel, and she is clothed with Jacob, standing on Rachel with his twelve sons on the remnants head.

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No. Read the passage again the woman is "clothed with THE SUN and THE MOON under her feet."

OneAccordRM said:

All so John can codify a prophecy in allegory of an account of Christs birth which is detailed literally in the Gospel.

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John is writing to folks who read scripture...the ONLY place you're going to read this other than Revelation 12...is Genesis 37.

OneAccordRM said:

Is that what you are trying to convince me of, or yourself?

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I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm rendering what I believe the passage is referring to...and I'll tell you this...if you don't know your Old Testament, you will trip all through Revelation because it refers to the OT and the OT prophets more than any other NT book.

OneAccordRM said:

Josephs prophecy was fulfilled in Genesis, when his brothers, father and mother bowed down to him when he became the ruler of Egypt.

You could figure that out in 2 minutes.

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It doesn't take long when you know how to correlate scripture. You're not even understanding this.

Joseph's prophecy was fulfilled when he ruled Egypt 2nd to Pharoh. Jacob, and His sons were subject to him as He was second to only Pharaoh.

What John did was gave you a clear picture in images, of what He was referring too. The ONLY place you'r going to find that picture is Gemesis 37!

Now Jacob did prophesy of Judah before he died. Guess what he said? Genesis 49:8-10:
8 “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; Your father’s sons shall bow down to you.
9 “Judah is a lion’s whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up.
He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him up?
10 “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Now...who do you this "Shiloh" is????

OneAccordRM said:

Thanks for the laugh though.

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Sure.

OneAccordRM said:

You do realize that Rachel is not the only wife of Jacob dont you? As in, she is not the mother of all 12.

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You do realize what it said don't you? THE WOMAN WAS CLOTHED with the sun and the moon. Here again is what Jacob said of Josephs dream.."Shall I and your MOTHER and your BROTHERS actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”

Jacob certainly understood the dream...even if you don't.

Now furthermore...do we need to count the times God refers to the nation of Israel as a woman?

OneAccordRM said:

Its getting hard to take you serious.

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Given how you read scripture, I can see why.

OneAccordRM said:

This much is obvious.

Thank you for time, I have no further need of your beliefs.

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I get it! You're certaunly welcome...

Interplanner said:

I don't know why Dan 9 can't refer to all the work Christ did. An approximate 3.5 years was meant.

You'd have to show why the antecedent of v27 can't return to Christ.

You'd have to show why the cutting off could not coincide with the end of sacrifice and offering, and why that phrase in Hebrews.

Whether it relates to Dt or not, there are 7 weeks to account for. They need to include Christ's accomplishements, and the desolation. "War continues to the end" fills the empty 2nd 3.5 years according to most commentators.

If 27 returns to Messiah, then to confirm a covenant is positive and is the new covenant.

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Inter, if you have the messiah cutoff at the end of 69.5 weeks, he is not here to confirm the covenant for the remaining 3 1/2 years - even in the obtuse application of "for 7 years" of what "for" 7 years means.

The for 7 years is the length of time that the confirmation is good for, then it has to be confirmed again "for the next 7 years", and 7 years later confirmed again..... for 7 years.....in perpetually. Which is about remembering that God gave the children of Israel, the promised land forever. Which must be done on the feast of tabernacles - which if you read Zechariah 14 after Jesus returns to this earth is the feast spoken of.

OneAccordRM said:

The Bible doesnt tell us exactly how long after the 69th week Christ is crucified, it just tells us that he was crucified after the 483 year period of time marked by the commandment to restore Jerusalem, which is consistent with History.

There are two events that take place prior to Daniels 70th week (final 7 years of his 490 year prophecy)

1. Christ is crucified
2. Jerusalem and temple are destroyed.

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That is not biblically supported. In fact, it makes no sense at all. Let me guess: you read it in Cyrus Ingerson Scofield's Reference notes.

I want you to understand that I am disappointed. When you came on to the forum, with that attitude, I figured you could at least follow the logic of the scripture and be a good debater.

But all you done so far is spout tired, worn-out dispensational talking points, when you are not posting false claims about the letters of the early church fathers, and presenting another unknown source as legitimate. And you are the one who scorned the reliability of Josephus and the Maccabees that I mentioned in my first post to you?


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