Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:13; 12:3: The Follies of the Future Literalists

random person · Jul 18, 2014

First off:

A. The words "near", "shortly", & "quickly" do not qualify to the future literalist. They are the exceptions to the rule!

B. If A Thousand Human Years Are One Day To The Lord, Then Is The Premillennial Rule Of Christ On Earth Going To Be 365,000 Years Long? 1,000 Years To The Lord X 365 Days Per A Year = 365,000 human years.

Now onto the texts of Matthew 24:29 & Revelation 6:13:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

How can stars fall to the Earth and the Earth survive? Stars are much larger than the Earth. One star would be enough to turn Earth into dust, let alone "a third of the stars of heaven."

If the stars are meteorites as commonly interpreted by future literalists:

Again, even "a third of the meteorites of heaven" for instance would have a devastating effect on our planet. The Earth would cease to exist. Scientists have speculated that a single meteorite threw up enough debris upon impact with the Earth that it "ended the reign of the dinosaurs". The colossal energy released in its collision with the Earth is now estimated to be equal to the detonation of up to 300 million hydrogen bombs, EACH some 70 times bigger than the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

If stars = meteorites, then this would mean that these passages are not to be interpreted "literally", an interpretive faux pas for the literalists.

Danoh · Jul 18, 2014

From a Mid-Acts Dispensational view "the stars" are "the powers" even now inhabiting, and thus, trafficking their "spiritual wickedness in" those "high places," Eph. 6, in the heavens, the subject of which fall is touched on in Rev. 12's "the Devil and his angels."

random person · Jul 18, 2014

Danoh said:
From a Mid-Acts Dispensational view "the stars" are "the powers" even now inhabiting, and thus, trafficking their "spiritual wickedness in" those "high places," Eph. 6, in the heavens, the subject of which fall is touched on in Rev. 12's "the Devil and his angels."

So to the Mid-Acts Dispensational view, here alittle... there alittle for future literalism?

And what of Matthew 24:29? And Rev. 6:13?

keras · Jul 18, 2014

Random person;
First, to equate the 1 day = 1000 years to the Millennial reign is rather silly, in no way is that intended by scripture.
I see the ' stars of heaven, falling like ripe figs', as simply a meteorite shower, something not unknown or unusual. Also we have hundreds of satellites circling the earth, they will crash to the ground when hit by the pressure wave of a coronal mass ejection, which; as we are told in Isaiah 30:26, is what the Lord will use to literally fulfil all the prophesies about His Day of wrath. That is the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event we can expect.

Dave Watchman · Jul 18, 2014

random person said:
First off:

A. The words "near", "shortly", & "quickly" do not qualify to the future literalist. They are the exceptions to the rule!

B. If A Thousand Human Years Are One Day To The Lord, Then Is The Premillennial Rule Of Christ On Earth Going To Be 365,000 Years Long? 1,000 Years To The Lord X 365 Days Per A Year = 365,000 human years.

Now onto the texts of Matthew 24:29 & Revelation 6:13:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

How can stars fall to the Earth and the Earth survive? Stars are much larger than the Earth. One star would be enough to turn Earth into dust, let alone "a third of the stars of heaven."

If the stars are meteorites as commonly interpreted by future literalists:

Again, even "a third of the meteorites of heaven" for instance would have a devastating effect on our planet. The Earth would cease to exist. Scientists have speculated that a single meteorite threw up enough debris upon impact with the Earth that it "ended the reign of the dinosaurs". The colossal energy released in its collision with the Earth is now estimated to be equal to the detonation of up to 300 million hydrogen bombs, EACH some 70 times bigger than the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

If stars = meteorites, then this would mean that these passages are not to be interpreted "literally", an interpretive faux pas for the literalists.

Hi random person

Where does it say in Matthew 24:29 & Revelation 6:13, that "a third of the stars" of heaven fell? In Rev.12:4 it says "a third of the stars" of heaven were "cast" to the earth by the tail of the great red dragon. Did a real red dragon knock a third of the meteorites out of heaven with his big fat tail? If the "stars" in Rev.12:4 were the demonic angels "cast" to the earth by the Devil, could the Stars of Matthew 24:29 & Revelation 6:13 be the Holy angels sent by The Lord? Why would they fall? Did they jump? Could it be that they are all sent at the same time, millions of them, to come and get us at the resurrection?

And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I think that there will be allot more of them (Stars) than there will be of us (saved). I would imagine millions of Holy Angels falling from the sky will look quite spectacular to the wicked who miss the boat. Will we each get our own angel to show us where to stand in the first minutes of the resurrection? I hope so because I have trouble at big airports, I will need a chaperon for the really big show.

About the 1000 years of Rev.20, sorry man, they are literal earth years. There are no symbolic prophetic time periods.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light"

This is talking about a literal partial solar and a literal full lunar eclipse. You can find the dates for them now.

If all goes well we won't be here to see the 1000 years of Rev. 20.

"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also".

Jesus is about to come back here and roll this whole place up like a scroll. He will kill all the wicked with a command and take all of us back to where he came from which is New Jerusalem. 100 pound hail stones will be crashing down and every mountain and island will be moved out of their places.The only life left on this planet will be some vultures eating the flesh of the wicked who will be laying all around with nobody to bury them. For 1000 literal years the Earth will make Mars look like Hawaii. The big question is what will we be doing off the planet for 1000 years while the earth has it's millennial "Day" of rest.

Again, even "a third of the meteorites of heaven" for instance would have a devastating effect on our planet.

This might be not too far off the mark for what comes next, a meteoric fire storm of burning hail that burns up a third of the planet.

"The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up"

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50 posts? Literal ones?

Interplanner · Jul 19, 2014

Keras,
re 1 day = thousand years
I don't think the Bible meant to treat human history as one "week" of 7 x 1000 year periods (and we are a bit late now), but at least it has a consistency about it. The last one was to have been the Mill.

If a person is going to do that, there is no reason to ignore Mt 1 and to overlook the year 280 AD. The "week" of 7 generations would move from Abraham to Moses to David to Christ and then there would be 7 x 40 (280 AD) for the "week" of Christ at which point something cosmic should have happened, but did not.

random person · Jul 19, 2014

keras said:
Random person;
First, to equate the 1 day = 1000 years to the Millennial reign is rather silly, in no way is that intended by scripture.
I see the ' stars of heaven, falling like ripe figs', as simply a meteorite shower, something not unknown or unusual. Also we have hundreds of satellites circling the earth, they will crash to the ground when hit by the pressure wave of a coronal mass ejection, which; as we are told in Isaiah 30:26, is what the Lord will use to literally fulfil all the prophesies about His Day of wrath. That is the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event we can expect.

So a star isn't a star afterall is it?

It would have been more correct had I said meteor not meteorite. My bad.

Interplanner · Jul 19, 2014

Random
re 50 posts. No, not literal ones, but there should be a "jubilee's" worth!

Old Timer · Jul 20, 2014

Men can't believe the simple truth but they'll certainly eat up the lie that Christ came a second time already...

Go figure..

JLB777 · Jul 20, 2014

random person said:
So to the Mid-Acts Dispensational view, here alittle... there alittle for future literalism?

And what of Matthew 24:29? And Rev. 6:13?

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

The great tribulation will be: such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ALL THE TRIBES [FAMILIES] OF THE EARTH WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING...!!!!!

The Great Tribulation has yet to happen!

JLB

Interplanner · Jul 20, 2014

The setting of Mt 24 shifts from 1st century Judea to indefinite worldwide at v29.

JLB777 · Jul 20, 2014

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

The great tribulation will be: such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ALL THE TRIBES [FAMILIES] OF THE EARTH WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING...!!!!!

The Great Tribulation has yet to happen!

JLB

Interplanner · Jul 20, 2014

Many times in the gospel accounts, 'gea' means the land of Israel, such as in 'you are the salt of the (land)' to preserve it from what would happen at the end of the generation. At least they had the potential to save it, but the zealots won out on the day.

He means the worst time Israel would ever see. Obviously, Noah's flood was the worst thing on earth to that point in time. The expression is from Daniel and is stated in terms that relate to Israel's history. See the thread here at E&P called the Great Tribulation by Dr. J. Zens, ed of SEARCHING TOGETHER.

JLB777 · Jul 24, 2014

Interplanner said:
Many times in the gospel accounts, 'gea' means the land of Israel, such as in 'you are the salt of the (land)' to preserve it from what would happen at the end of the generation. At least they had the potential to save it, but the zealots won out on the day.

He means the worst time Israel would ever see. Obviously, Noah's flood was the worst thing on earth to that point in time. The expression is from Daniel and is stated in terms that relate to Israel's history. See the thread here at E&P called the Great Tribulation by Dr. J. Zens, ed of SEARCHING TOGETHER.

ALL THE TRIBES [FAMILIES] OF THE EARTH WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING...!!!!!

The Great Tribulation has yet to happen!

JLB

Dave Watchman · Jul 24, 2014

random person said:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

How can stars fall to the Earth and the Earth survive?

If the stars are meteorites as commonly interpreted by future literalists:

Again, even "a third of the meteorites of heaven" for instance would have a devastating effect on our planet.

What if just one single meteorite fell from heaven?

Revelation 9 English Standard Version (ESV)

9 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

This one single "star" will still cause a devastating effect.
I wonder, did they get stung by scorpions at the DofJ?

Lollerskates · Jul 24, 2014

Dave Watchman said:
What if just one single meteorite fell from heaven?

Revelation 9 English Standard Version (ESV)

9 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

That "star" is personified in this case, so it is most likely an angel - the typical nomenclature used for them.

2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.

These are likely demons, and the fallen hosts - entities that will persecute. They look like locust, and smoke because there are so many of them. And, the power of the scorpion is their sting, to harm and cause excruciating pain, but not necessarily kill.

4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

This seems self explanatory.

5 They were allowed to torment them for five months,

This could be symbolic, as the "season of locust" is usually five months - generally the time from around May to September (swarming season.) The verse is less about a specific time frame, and more about an alloted time these entities have to hurt whomever they can.

but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.

Again, scorpions don't necessarily kill with their stings; they are just incredibly painful, and can cause serious reactions.

6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

With the world rushing to find ways to live forever, biotechnology, nanotechnology, and transhumanism, this could be a reference to an age (very close) in which people will actually choose to alter their DNA in order to live for extended periods of time. (Perhaps THAT is the mark of the beast - altering one's natural God-given DNA for any reason.) So, if, for example someone took a genetically altering "immortality pill," or procedure, then the joke would be on them: these entities would literally torture them with such intensity that they would beg to be able to die. But they can't with their genetically manipulated bodies that allow them to live/repair "forever" - like Wolverine's healing factor. Imagine having the flesh ripped from your body slowly, and your bones broken. For a natural human, God installed merciful protocols: shock, passing out, and death. But, if you alter your DNA, you have changed from a natural God-given man into a man formed in something else's image.

This one single "star" will still cause a devastating effect.
I wonder, did they get stung by scorpions at the DofJ?

Isn't it interesting this personified "star" is given authority to open a bottomless pit, rather than already possessing the authority?

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 24, 2014

Dave Watchman said:
What if just one single meteorite fell from heaven?

Revelation 9 English Standard Version (ESV)

5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

I wonder, did they get stung by scorpions at the DofJ?

I would think arrows, swords and spears could feel like a scorpion sting. That is what they fought with back during the 1st century.

Reve 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months.
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking/stinging a man

Reve 13:10
If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

Coincidentally, according to Josephus, from the time of the start of the siege to the final destruction of Jerusalem was 5 MONTHS

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............

...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the City on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding...................

and is also the amount of time the Flood of Noah covered the earth in Genesis [150 days] . How kewl is that? :idea:

Mat 24:37
“But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Genesis 7:24
Thus prevailed the waters on the earth a hundred and fifty days.

.

random person · Jul 24, 2014

JLB777 said:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

The great tribulation will be: such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ALL THE TRIBES [FAMILIES] OF THE EARTH WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING...!!!!!

The Great Tribulation has yet to happen!

JLB

Immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, God began to shake down the world (Matthew 24:29). The nations began to recognize Christ as King (24:30). In context, verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the gospel to the nations.

Once again, the English translations do not capture the full meaning of the Greek. A better translation is "tribes of the land" indicating the event is restricted to Israel.

"Tribes of the Land"

"soil" (Matthew 13:5,8,23)
"ground" or "earth" = dirt (Matthew 25:25)
"land" = countryside (Matthew 27:45)
"Earth" = world (Matthew 16:10)
"land of Israel" (Matthew 2:6, 20-21)

The Greek word is γῆ, γῆς, ἡ Transliteration: gé (ghay)

random person · Jul 24, 2014

Dave Watchman said:
What if just one single meteorite fell from heaven?

Revelation 9 English Standard Version (ESV)

9 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

This one single "star" will still cause a devastating effect.
I wonder, did they get stung by scorpions at the DofJ?

Just remember the siege of Jerusalem lasted 5 months under Titus.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 24, 2014

random person said:
In context, verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the gospel to the nations.

Once again, the English translations do not capture the full meaning of the Greek.
A better translation is "tribes of the land" indicating the event is restricted to Israel.

"Tribes of the Land"

"soil" (Matthew 13:5,8,23)
"ground" or "earth" = dirt (Matthew 25:25)
"land" = countryside (Matthew 27:45)
"Earth" = world (Matthew 16:10)
"land of Israel" (Matthew 2:6, 20-21)

The Greek word is γῆ, γῆς, ἡ Transliteration: gé (ghay)

The book of Revelation involves a lot of OT Jewish/Hebrew symbology and heck, even the Jews could see that

An earthquake can also symbolize an upheavel among peoples and/or nations, such as when Jesus entered Jerusalem in Matt 21:10

Ezekiel 38:19
"And in My jealously, in fire of rage of Me I speak, if not in that day, shall become a great earthquake on Ground of Israel"
[Revelation 16:18]

Matt 21:10
And of entering Him into Jerusalem, is shaken/eseisqh <4579> (5681) all the City saying `Who-any is this'?

Hebrews 12:26
Whose voice the land shakes then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking/seiw <4579> (5719) not only the Land but also the Heaven. [Haggai 2:6/Revelation 16:18]

Reve 16:18
and became lightnings and thunders and voices/sounds and a great earthquake/seismoV <4578> became, such-as not became since the men became upon the Land,
such proportion an earthquake/seismoV <4578> thus great.
[Haggai 2:6/Ezekiel 38:19]

.

Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:13; 12:3: The Follies of the Future Literalists

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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