Hell

DrBubbaLove · Jul 23, 2014

BukiRob said:
How about answering this question. In order for the Pagan eternal life existence how to do reconcile that G-d has decreed the wages of sin are death. That the gift of Eternal life is for the believer alone. Man is mortal no part of him is eternal as a by product of his creation.

The unrepresented sole will die a second time of course you somehow have to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to make death=eternal life.

In such a non scriptural point of view, you have ALL mankind being created as immortal eternal beings, the only thing you seemingly want to quibble on is WHERE one spends eternal life..... sadly there is 0 scripture that supports any such thesis that man is an immortal eternal being

Have always marveled at how some can look at aspects of their faith or the faith of others as if those aspects were isolated/abstract thoughts rather than parts of a solid whole. A view which attempts to say eternal suffering equals "eternal life" ignores the purpose for our existence and assumes any form/state of our existence is equal to another.

As the orthodox view of the purpose of human life precludes equating the damned eternally suffering in Hell with "eternal life" , the only quibbling and mental gymnastics going on here is on the part of those who wish to paint this view that way in order to bolster their oppsoing view.

Am unclear what is meant by "immortal eternal being". Only God has no beginning and no end. And our existence is not just by His Hand, but right now is due to Him - not just holding us in His Hand - but quite literally we are because He is. Our immortal souls have a beginning, in our mother's womb, but no end. So this view of a "human" life having immortal souls does not make us gods. An immortal soul is also required given a belief that He made us to know, love and serve the Supreme Good eternally, which also leads to what it really means to gain "eternal" life.

he-man · Jul 23, 2014

DrBubbaLove said:
Saint Paul is speaking specifically about God being able to bring a human, specifically Jesus in this case, back from the dead. It would have be more favorable for this view had God promised those hearing Him been recorded as Him saying they would all be destroyed but not stay that way forever.

That verse Rom 4:17, is about Abraham and his seed, which includes us which are of the faith of Abraham!

We are told of the contrast between those who will be destroyed eternally, and those who shall live eternally.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Der Alte · Jul 23, 2014

CherubRam said:
You should take your complaint to God.

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

Numbers 12:8
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Psalm 49:4
I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:

Proverbs 1:6
for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Daniel 5:12
He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.

Ezekiel 20:49
Then I said, Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, Isnt he just telling parables?

Hosea 12:10
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.

Matthew 13:3
Then he told them many things in parables, saying: A farmer went out to sow his seed.

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, Why do you speak to the people in parables?

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...

You ain't Moses. You ain't David! You ain't Solomon! You ain't Daniel! You ain't Ezekiel! You ain't Hosea! And you ain't Matthew! There are clearly identified parables, and other figures of speech, in the Bible. The problem is that a lot of folks arbitrarily decide for themselves what is, and is not, a parable. And as I observed before, somehow scripture is always literal when it suits somebody's assumptions/presuppositions. But when scripture contradicts someone's teaching then they always conveniently explain it away as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative, anything but literal. There is a well known maxim for interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

BukiRob · Jul 23, 2014

BukiRob said:
Actually Yeshua raised himself.

John 10:17-18 17 This is why the Father loves me: because I lay down my life in order to take it up again! 18 No one takes it away from me; on the contrary, I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This is what my Father commanded me to do.

Please provide clear, unmistakable evidence that souls are immortal. I think you will find that is not what is in scripture

1 Timothy 6:13-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 I charge you in the presence of God, who [a]gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper timeHe who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [c]kings and Lord of [d]lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Footnotes:

1 Timothy 6:13 Or preserves alive
1 Timothy 6:15 Lit show
1 Timothy 6:15 Lit those who reign as kings
1 Timothy 6:15 Lit those who rule as lords

This scriptural reference makes it clear that G-d ALONE has immortality. NOT MAN...

Job 14:1-2New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Job Speaks of the Finality of Death
14 Man, who is born of woman,
Is [a]short-lived and full of turmoil.
2 Like a flower he comes forth and withers.
He also flees like a shadow and does not remain.
Footnotes:

Job 14:1 Lit short of days

Notice Job says nothing about an immortal soul or an immortal afterlife....

Psalm 78:39New American Standard Bible (NASB)

39 Thus He remembered that they were but flesh,
A [a]wind that passes and does not return.
Footnotes:

Psalm 78:39 Or breath

Again, David speaks about the MORTALNESS of man... no mention of immortality

Yehsua's OWN WORDS:

John 10:27-28New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Since Yeshua is giving this to his sheep why would he give something that we already would posses if indeed we had an immortal soul. It is unmistakably, crystal clear that man does nothave an immortal soul and it is YESHUA who gives this to his sheep.

Again Yeshua tells us:

John 5:21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Solomon makes it clear:

Ecclesiastes 12:7New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [a]spirit will return to God who gave it.
Footnotes:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Or breath (of life which all living beings have)

When you die your body goes into the ground the breath of life (that which animates you) returns to the Father.

What happens when you die? Scripture tells us!

Psalm 146:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 His spirit departs, he returns to [a]the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.
Footnotes:

Psalm 146:4(A)Lit his earth

2 Timothy 1:10 10 but made it public only now through the appearing of our Deliverer, the Messiah Yeshua, who abolished death and, through the Good News, revealed life and immortality.

It is through the Gospel to HIS sheep that life and immortality is revealed and given.

Scripture clearly teaches that when this mortal body dies you go to the grave. The breath of life returns to the Father and you stay in the grave until Yeshua raises those of us who have fallen asleep (died) who are in Christ. They are given immortality and take on incorruptible bodies. If you are NOT among his flock you do not get either and as such are completely and totally MORTAL. Body and soul!

he-man · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
You ain't Moses. You ain't David! You ain't Solomon! You ain't Daniel! You ain't Ezekiel! You ain't Hosea! And you ain't Matthew! There are clearly identified parables, and other figures of speech, in the Bible. The problem is that a lot of folks arbitrarily decide for themselves what is, and is not, a parable. And as I observed before, somehow scripture is always literal when it suits somebody's assumptions/presuppositions. But when scripture contradicts someone's teaching then they always conveniently explain it away as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative, anything but literal. There is a well known maxim for interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Nonsense, the Book of Job is a parable telling why God uses Evil to Test men and how they overcome evil with Good, by belief.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips

Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 29:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,

Der Alte · Jul 23, 2014

Timothew said:
"Their worm" is not "them" or "their soul". "Their worm" is the little worm that is eating their corpse.

Read Isaiah 66:24 again:
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

That is how some modern believers understand Isa 66:24, but that is not how the Jews in Israel before and during the time if Jesus understood Isaiah. There is another relevant OT verse.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This vs. does not say "some [awake] to shame and everlasting contempt" then they die a second death or they are destroyed.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50
better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born. Mat 26:24

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that here is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / JulySeptember 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to life: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus allusion to Isaiah 66:24. (The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), The Valley of Hinnom, lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum

he-man · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
That is how some modern believers understand Isa 66:24, but that is not how the Jews in Israel before and during the time if Jesus understood Isaiah. There is another relevant OT verse.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This vs. does not say "some [awake] to shame and everlasting contempt" then they die a second death or they are destroyed.

Everlasting contempt!
Mar 9:44 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out.

Isa 66:24 "Then they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be extinguished, and they will remain an object of revulsion to all humanity."

Mat 25:10 "While they were away buying it, the groom arrived. Those who were ready went with him into the wedding banquet, and the door was closed.

CherubRam · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
You ain't Moses. You ain't David! You ain't Solomon! You ain't Daniel! You ain't Ezekiel! You ain't Hosea! And you ain't Matthew! There are clearly identified parables, and other figures of speech, in the Bible. The problem is that a lot of folks arbitrarily decide for themselves what is, and is not, a parable. And as I observed before, somehow scripture is always literal when it suits somebody's assumptions/presuppositions. But when scripture contradicts someone's teaching then they always conveniently explain it away as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative, anything but literal. There is a well known maxim for interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Proverbs 15:21
Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, But a man of understanding walks uprightly.

Luke 8:10
And He said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.

Der Alte · Jul 23, 2014

CherubRam said:
Proverbs 15:21
Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, But a man of understanding walks uprightly.

Clean your own nose before throwing random scriptures at me!

Luke 8:10
And He said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.

I agree "To you [followers of Jesus] it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means." See John 14:26.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

he-man · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means."

deleted

DrBubbaLove · Jul 23, 2014

BukiRob said:
Actually Yeshua raised himself.

John 10:17-18 17 “This is why the Father loves me: because I lay down my life — in order to take it up again! 18 No one takes it away from me; on the contrary, I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This is what my Father commanded me to do.”

Please provide clear, unmistakable evidence that souls are immortal. I think you will find that is not what is in scripture

What would be the purpose of making a human to love, serve and know the Supreme Good if there was nothing about that person ( a soul) which is immortal.

Only AFTER God makes man does He say everything was VERY Good. How can it be good to create such a creature, with the DIGNITY He obviously meant to be given man OVER all other creatures on Earth, only to have that person perish?

THe orthodox view of life, death and purpose of existing is consistent and a solid whole. Remove any element, like the immortality of the soul, and one creates problems with the other elements of our faith. If the purpose of a EVERY human is to love, serve and know God and that He created EACH of us to share in His Eternal Happiness then it must be true that we are capable of having a continous existence from the moment He made us.

Obviously our bodies do not have that immortal capability and the creation story supports the idea that our bodies die due to the corruption of creation caused by sin. The stories of people walking from this life straight into the next also support the idea that the clear intent of the way we were meant to live (without sin) as humans, the reason He made us is to be walking with Him BODY and SOUL eternally. No change is mentioned for those individuals, they just ascend, BODY and SOUL.

Throw out the idea that we were each made/meant to share in His Eternal Happiness from our creation (no immortal soul), then we raise a lot of questions about the purpose of our existence, also our beliefs regarding God Himself and why He made each of us.

For instance, all of us having immortal souls supports the idea that He loves each of us and desires to share His Eternal Happiness with ALL of us since He gave us an existence, a person that will have no end. Throw that out and we begin to ponder why He bother to make some of us at all. Along with that we could also question how it could be Good that He made such people, which some might suggest questions the character of God in creating such people.

So the idea we do not have immortal souls has REAL implications far beyond the imagined notion that it would mean the damned have "eternal life".Which was my point, that there are realities to having a body of beliefs that all fit together and mutually support one another, which make rejecting any part weaken the foundation/structure of everything else.

CherubRam · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
Clean your own nose before throwing random scriptures at me!

I agree "To you [followers of Jesus] it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means." See John 14:26.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:26 is what was told to the disciples.

CherubRam · Jul 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
Clean your own nose before throwing random scriptures at me!

I agree "To you [followers of Jesus] it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means." See John 14:26.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You have made the choice to believe the Serpent whom said: "you will not surly die;" and you have chosen not to believe God whom said: "you will surly die." If there are living beings in a place called Hell, then God lied.

John 8:44 The Serpent and Devil.
not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Timothew · Jul 24, 2014

Der Alter said:
That is how some modern believers understand Isa 66:24, but that is not how the Jews in Israel before and during the time if Jesus understood Isaiah.

Thanks Der Alter.

My point was not "What do people think about Isaiah 66:24?", but rather "What does Isaiah 66:24 actually say?".

The fact that Isaiah was describing a scene where the bodies of the enemies of God were being eaten by worms and burned by fire is conveniently ignored by the person who asked "If their worm doesn't die how can they be dead?".

Surely you don't want poor arguments to be used by people who defend your view of hell, do you? Their poor arguments weaken your case by association.

BukiRob · Jul 24, 2014

DrBubbaLove said:
What would be the purpose of making a human to love, serve and know the Supreme Good if there was nothing about that person ( a soul) which is immortal.

Only AFTER God makes man does He say everything was VERY Good. How can it be good to create such a creature, with the DIGNITY He obviously meant to be given man OVER all other creatures on Earth, only to have that person perish?

THe orthodox view of life, death and purpose of existing is consistent and a solid whole. Remove any element, like the immortality of the soul, and one creates problems with the other elements of our faith. If the purpose of a EVERY human is to love, serve and know God and that He created EACH of us to share in His Eternal Happiness then it must be true that we are capable of having a continous existence from the moment He made us.

Obviously our bodies do not have that immortal capability and the creation story supports the idea that our bodies die due to the corruption of creation caused by sin. The stories of people walking from this life straight into the next also support the idea that the clear intent of the way we were meant to live (without sin) as humans, the reason He made us is to be walking with Him BODY and SOUL eternally. No change is mentioned for those individuals, they just ascend, BODY and SOUL.

Throw out the idea that we were each made/meant to share in His Eternal Happiness from our creation (no immortal soul), then we raise a lot of questions about the purpose of our existence, also our beliefs regarding God Himself and why He made each of us.

For instance, all of us having immortal souls supports the idea that He loves each of us and desires to share His Eternal Happiness with ALL of us since He gave us an existence, a person that will have no end. Throw that out and we begin to ponder why He bother to make some of us at all. Along with that we could also question how it could be Good that He made such people, which some might suggest questions the character of God in creating such people.

So the idea we do not have immortal souls has REAL implications far beyond the imagined notion that it would mean the damned have "eternal life".Which was my point, that there are realities to having a body of beliefs that all fit together and mutually support one another, which make rejecting any part weaken the foundation/structure of everything else.

Too bad NONE of what you said is found in scripture.

Scripture makes it crystal, unmistakably clear that the gift of eternal life is given to the believer.

You can either choose to believe what G-d says or not but that is crystal clear in scripture

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 17:3
Verse Concepts
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

2 Timothy 2:10
Verse Concepts
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Daniel 12:2
Verse Concepts
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (contempt is defined: a feeling of disdain for anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; scorn.)

John 3:16
Verse Concepts
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Since every man who has ever lived has died this can not be speaking of the first death.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Verse Concepts
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

John 11:25-26
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
By the very nature of this verse if one does NOT believe in Yeshua, he or she WILL die a second death. Yeshua would have NEVER said this if man were immortal since the statement would make no sense.

So with all due respect, you can believe the pagan gibberish that you have been taught OR you can open your bible, seek the Fathers face, ask for truth and believe what HE tells you.

he-man · Jul 24, 2014

Der Alter said:
A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means."

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need of one to teach you again which are the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong food.

Isa 66:24 "Then they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be extinguished, and they will remain an object of revulsion to all humanity."

GEHENNA: The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are in it, the seas, and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.

SATAN: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism,

even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

Timothew · Jul 24, 2014

Der Alter said:
A follower of Jesus does not need someone else, who claims to be a follower of Jesus and who thinks they know more than others, trying to explain what scripture "really means." See John 14:26.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So does that mean that we don't need to read your long posts explaining that the Jews believed in eternal conscious torment so Christians should believe in ECT as well?

See John 3:16

BukiRob · Jul 24, 2014

Timothew said:
So does that mean that we don't need to read your long posts explaining that the Jews believed in eternal conscious torment so Christians should believe in ECT as well?

See John 3:16

They didn't believe ECT. Scripture in the old testament is very clear. The soul that sins dies.

he-man · Jul 24, 2014

quote=BukiRob;66045684]They didn't believe ECT. Scripture in the old testament is very clear. The soul that sins dies.[/quote] It is clear that the ungodly will not be allowed to face God, nor will they be able to stand up face to face with Him. Ungodly means they have never known God and have refused to acknowledge Him.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand up in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

However, Listen to what Job says, in describing his affliction:
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.
Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amo 3:6 Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Der Alte · Jul 24, 2014

CherubRam said:
You have made the choice to believe the Serpent whom said: "you will not surly die;" and you have chosen not to believe God whom said: "you will surly die." If there are living beings in a place called Hell, then God lied.

If one presumes to teach others they should at least spell words correctly. The serpent said "You will not surely die." And you are making a deliberately false accusation. I have said a number of times.

The wages of sin is death.
All [100% of mankind] have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
It is appointed unto man [100% of mankind] once [not twice] to die, after that the judgment.

The scripture does not say "It is appointed unto man once to die, after that the judgment, then a second death!"

John 8:44 The Serpent and Devil.
not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Perhaps you should take this scripture to heart. You said, "If there are living beings in a place called Hell, then God lied." Have you ever read Rev 20:10?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Three living beings, one the false prophet, is a person, are cast into the lake of fire, but they do not die, they are not destroyed, they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

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