A question for JWs about the use of "Jehovah" in Colossians

RevelationTestament said:

Well being that shaddai does not mean almighty, I would strongly disagree. I believe it means something akin to the God who weans from the breast. ....

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Nonsense! Private esoteric unverifiable "spiritual revelation," without any lexical or historical evidence does not establish the meaning of Hebrew words.

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Anyone notice the greek word for "Shaddai" is used on 1 time outside of the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation
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Greek Lexicon :: G3841 (KJV)
Strong's Number G3841 matches the Greek παντοκράτωρ (pantokratōr), which occurs 10 times in 10 verses in the Greek concordance
[Used 10 times. 9 Times in Revelation, and 2 Corin 6:18].

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RevelationTestament said:

Well being that shaddai does not mean almighty, I would strongly disagree. I believe it means something akin to the God who weans from the breast.

Now if you were to assert that pantokrator is being used for gibbor or El Gibbor, the Mighty/Almighty God I would be inclined to say probably or at least possibly. Having not specifically studied the issue tho, I withhold judgment. I know at least some in the early church referred to both the Father and Son as Pantokrator.

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#3841 is comprised of 2 greek words.


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

3841. pantokrator pan-tok-rat'-ore from 3956 and 2904; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal sovereign):--Almighty, Omnipotent.
3956. pas pas including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--
2904. kratos krat'-os perhaps a primary word; vigor ("great") (literally or figuratively):--dominion, might(-ily), power, strength.

There are also other forms #2904, and why a good Lexicon/Concordance can come in handy sometimes.

Greek Lexicon :: G2904 (KJV)
Strong's Number G2904 matches the Greek κράτος (kratos),
which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance

2900. krataios krat-ah-yos' from 2904; powerful:--mighty.
2901. krataioo krat-ah-yo'-o from 2900; to empower, i.e. (passively) increase in vigor:--be strengthened, be (wax) strong.
2902. krateo krat-eh'-o from 2904; to use strength, i.e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):--hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand (hold) on, obtain, retain, take (by).
2903. kratistos krat'-is-tos superlative of a derivative of 2904; strongest, i.e. (in dignity) very honorable:--most excellent (noble).

Here is a kewl Pantokrator Icon put up by a Greek Orthodox member:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7544865-2/#post57022337

The four Gospel writers are the icons on the pendentives supporting the dome which has the icon of Jesus Christ Pantocrater; this is a visual demonstration of Christ as ruler of all, and the importance of the Gospels (and Holy Scripture) in the EO.



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spiritandtruth2 said:

Arguments that some Trinitarians draw from the Hebrew Scriptures are (1) that Christ is prophetically called Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14 and (2) that “Mighty God” is one of the names applied to him in Isaiah 9:6.

The name Immanuel means “with us is God,” but this does not mean that Christ is God, any more than Elihu was God simply because his name means “God is he.” (Job 32:1, 2)

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Yet an OT prophet predicted Jesus incarnation and described Him in terms of deity multiple times. I also know that you are working under an inaccurate definition of the Trinity fed to you by the WTBS.

Examples: turn in your NWT to Psalm 102:25-27 and read this: “Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 “[a]Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27 “But You are the same,
Psalm 102 is talking about Jehovah God we can look at vs12 and see that.
Then turn to Hebrews 1:1-12:
2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c]world. 3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [e]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”?
And again,
“I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?
6 And [f]when He again brings the firstborn into [g]the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom. 9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, 12 And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”


and look in your cross references you'll see it references Psalm 102:25-27. Why? Why would the writer of Hebrews take a Psalm about Jehovah God's attributes and ascribe it to Jesus?

Read John 12:39-43. When did Isaiah see Jesus' glory? Read Isaiah 6:1-10 do you see what John is saying in ch.12? There's an interesting textual variant in Isaiah 6:1 in the LXX ( Greek Septuagint) guess what it says there in Greek: "And I saw His Glory." The exact words in John ch. 12. John knew that his readers were intimately familiar with the Greek text of the OT and that they would know instantly what he was saying. John identifies Jesus as God.

Final one that will really make you ponder and step outside of the WTBS scripture twisting:

Go to Exodus 6:2-3, The Bible says God spoke further to Moses and appeared as God Almighty, not an angel. God almighty is only Jehovah to you right? But then there you have a problem, In JW theology John 1:18 and John 6:46, says that no can see the Father (which I agree with, the Father has never been seen cause 1 Timothy 6:16 says that the Father dwells in unapproachable light etc) we know there's no contradictions in the Bible right? But we know it wasn't the Father who was seen, but we know the Bible says that God appeared to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as God Almighty, here's the question: Who's God Almighty in the OT who's not God the Father? Who were they seeing who's God Almighty but Jesus says is not the Father? Who were they seeing in the OT who's God Almighty but not the Father?

As to Christ’s being called “Mighty God,” if puny human judges can be called “gods” in the Scriptures (Psalm 82:1-7), is it not appropriate that God’s Son should be called “Mighty God” (Hebrew, ‘El Gib·bohr&#8242?

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Scripture twisting again. Psalm 82 is what's called an imprecatory Psalm. In other words, it is a Psalm of condemnation and judgment against the unrighteous. verse 2 addresses the unjust judgment and how these rulers were showing partiality to the wicked. Verses 3-4 are an admonition to deal with people with fairness. Verse 5 speaks of the rulers' ignorance and lack of understanding. Verse 6 is where God refers to the unrighteous rulers as gods--not that they are divine but that they have the power of life and death in their judgments. Third, consider Psalm 82:7 which says, “Nevertheless you will die like men, and fall like any one of the princes.” Then verse 8 is a request for the real God to judge the earth.
Therefore, when Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34, he was condemning the Pharisees as unrighteous leaders as well as confounding them with the scriptures about himself being the Son of God.


Are you calling Jesus a god in the same sense as the wicked rulers; or are you saying He is a created god of a different quality than Jehovah but greater than humans? Either way, you are denying that he is truly God and truly man. So then, you agree with the Pharisees in John 10:30-34 that Jesus is not God in flesh. If they misunderstood who he was, how do I know you aren't also misunderstanding who he is since you also deny his deity just like they did?

Referring to these two arguments, The Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “Even these exalted titles did not lead the Jews to recognize that the Saviour to come was to be none other than God Himself.”

Neither do they lead us to do so.

Summing up on so-called Old Testament proofs of the Trinity, the Protestant Cyclopædia by M’Clintock and Strong states: “Thus it appears that none of the passages cited from the Old Test[ament] in proof of the Trinity are conclusive. We do not find in the Old Testament clear or decided proof upon this subject.”

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Here you use the WTBS standard of quote mining and editing quotes just like it does in the numerous publications of the WTBS.

"The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the OT. In many places of the OT however, expressions are used in which some of the Fathers of the Church saw references or foreshadowings of the Trinity." New Catholic Encyclopedia - p.306

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Shall we continue on with the obvious proof of editing of quotes by the Watchtower? Such evidence is numerous with a simple Google search, entire websites are dedicated to exposing this tactic used by the WTBS.

Here: Watchtower misquotes regarding the Trinity
4Jehovah » Yes, You Should Believe in the Trinity

Read and study.

Der Alter said:

Nonsense! Private esoteric unverifiable "spiritual revelation," without any lexical or historical evidence does not establish the meaning of Hebrew words.

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Nor do unverifiable and unsubstantiated stories with verifiably inaccurate facts establish the credibility of the Septuagint nor its supposed translation of shaddai into almighty esp when El Gibbor already means that.

LittleLambofJesus said:

#3841 is comprised of 2 greek words.


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

3841. pantokrator pan-tok-rat'-ore from 3956 and 2904; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal sovereign):--Almighty, Omnipotent.
3956. pas pas including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--
2904. kratos krat'-os perhaps a primary word; vigor ("great") (literally or figuratively):--dominion, might(-ily), power, strength.

There are also other forms #2904, and why a good Lexicon/Concordance can come in handy sometimes.

Greek Lexicon :: G2904 (KJV)
Strong's Number G2904 matches the Greek κράτος (kratos),
which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance

2900. krataios krat-ah-yos' from 2904; powerful:--mighty.
2901. krataioo krat-ah-yo'-o from 2900; to empower, i.e. (passively) increase in vigor:--be strengthened, be (wax) strong.
2902. krateo krat-eh'-o from 2904; to use strength, i.e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):--hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand (hold) on, obtain, retain, take (by).
2903. kratistos krat'-is-tos superlative of a derivative of 2904; strongest, i.e. (in dignity) very honorable:--most excellent (noble).

Here is a kewl Pantokrator Icon put up by a Greek Orthodox member:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7544865-2/#post57022337

The four Gospel writers are the icons on the pendentives supporting the dome which has the icon of Jesus Christ Pantocrater; this is a visual demonstration of Christ as ruler of all, and the importance of the Gospels (and Holy Scripture) in the EO.

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neat pic brother
I actually get somewhat frustrated over the greek NT, but am trying to learn to live with it..... But learning what I have about the Septuagint, and the NT from the minority texts, I have become cautious about just accepting what is handed down as the truth. So I hope I am not coming across as accusatory to you. I am still learning just like everyone else, and hopefully one day some will find what I have learned useful.

RevelationTestament said:

Nor do unverifiable and unsubstantiated stories with verifiably inaccurate facts establish the credibility of the Septuagint nor its supposed translation of shaddai into almighty esp when El Gibbor already means that.

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Wrong x 3. The LXX is not unverifiable. The LXX is not unsubstantiated. And no verifiably inaccurate facts. Even if you were correct that does nothing to prove verify/substantiate your supposed private, esoteric "revelations." And OBTW the LXX was not the only evidence I presented.

Der Alter said:

You evidently are not paying attention! The source I quoted which showed that Shaddai has no root is the Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon none of whom are Jewish. They were what is known as accredited Hebrew scholars.

BDB is not a "Jewish" source! Here is Gen 17:1 from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT.

JPS Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am God Almighty; [אל שׁדי /el shaddai] walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.​

The Jewish Encyclopedia was written by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. What did you say your qualification in Hebrew were? The article I quoted rejected your unsupported supposition that Shaddai is derived from the Hebrew word 'breast."

Irrelevant nonsense! Nothing credible says that Shaddai is a combinaton of those two words! What is this overwhelming need you have to have Shaddai mean enough breast?

You cannot save anyone from anything with false assumptions/presuppositions. Please note that neither of these sources shows that Shaddai was derived from any other word! That it was supposedly derived from "enough breast" is a figment of someone's overactive imagination!

שַׁדַּי m. in pause [Hb.] sdy, the Almighty, the Omnipotent, an epithet or name of Jehovah; sometimes in the Pentateuch preceded by [Hb.] El, as Ex. 6, 3 I appeared unto Abraham . . . [Hb.] bel shdy as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah (יהוה Jahweh) was I not known unto them. Gen. 17, 1. 28, 3. 35, 11. 43, 14. 48, 3 ; prob. also Gen. 49, 25 [Hb.] eth shdy should be [Hb.] el shdy, as in the Sam. And several Heb.Mss. Elsewhere only once, Ez. 10, 5. In all other examples it is without [Hb.] el, as Num. 24, 4. 16. Ruth 1, 20. 21. Ps. 68, 15. 91, 1. Joel 1, 15. Is.13, 7. Ez. 1, 24. Job 5, 17. 6, 4. 14. 8, 3. 5, and often in this book.— שַׁדַּי is strictly a pluralis majestaticus, from a sing, שד powerful, from r. שדד; but plurals in י__ are quite doubtful ; see Heb. Gr. ed. 16. § 86. 1. c. More probable is it, therefore, that שַׁדַּי, which never takes the article, is to be regarded as a plural (of 11a) with the suffix of the first person, after the analogy of the form [Hb.] elny, and used at first in direct invocation to God Heb. Gr. § 119. n. 4. 'Hence, pr. Mei potentes, my God ; but afterwards a name of God as Almighty ; comp. [Hb.] elny —Other etymologies see in Thesaur. p. 1366 sq.

A Hebrew And English Lexicon Of The Old Testament, Including The Biblical Chaldee.
From The Latin Of William Gesenius, By Edward Robinson, 18th edition, Boston, 1865​

&#1513;&#1473;&#1463;&#1491;&#1468;&#1463;&#1497; S7706 TWOT2333 GK872448 n.m. dei (etym. dub. (1) Aq Sym Theod &#7985;&#954;&#945;&#957;&#972;&#962;; Rabb &#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1470; + &#1491;&#1468;&#1463;&#1497; (self-) sufficient, no moderns. (2)= almighty, &#8730; &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1491; + &#1497; = Thes De Di Sta, or &#8730; &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1492; = &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1491;, n. intens. Ew§ 155 c, but &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1491; (q.v.) is deal violently not simply mightily; cf. G &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#954;&#961;&#940;&#964;&#969;&#961; 14 (15) times (but in Pent. &#1488;&#1500; &#1513;&#1473;&#1523; is &#8001; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;, &#963;&#959;&#965;, etc.), B mostly omnipotens. (3) < conject. for orig. &#1513;&#1473;&#1461;&#1491;&#1463;&#1497; (v. &#1513;&#1473;&#1461;&#1491;) my sovereign lord, || &#1488;&#1458;&#1491;&#1465;&#1504;&#1464;&#1497;, &#1489;&#1506;&#1500;&#1497; NöSBA 1880, 775; ZMG xlii (1888), 481; HoffmPh. Inscr. 53; used of foreign deities (Dt 32:17), and so discredited (cf. &#1489;&#1468;&#1463;&#1506;&#1463;&#1500;).—> other conj., e.g. RSOTJC, 424 &#8730; &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1492; pour forth (God as rain-giver); DlPr 96 sq. Assyrian šadû&#722;, high, ilu šadû&#722;a, CheComm. Is ii. 148, or šadû, mountain, also in n.pr.; v. further Dr Gn 404 ff.);— 1. &#1513;&#1473;&#1463;&#1491;&#1468;&#1463;&#1497; Nu 24:4, 16 (JE, poem), and so as archaism Ru 1:20, 21 &#968; 68:15; 91:1 Jo 1:15 = Is 13:6 Ez 1:24 (del. Co), especially Jb 5:17 + 30 times Jb ( + 19:29 Ew Di reading &#1513;&#1473;&#1523; for &#1513;&#1473;&#1491;&#1497;&#1503;). 2. &#1488;&#1461;&#1500; &#1513;&#1473;&#1463;&#1491;&#1468;&#1463;&#1497; Gn 49:25 (poem; so read for &#1488;&#1461;&#1514; &#1513;&#1473;&#1523;, v. Sam. G S Saad, Heb. Codd.), and so, as archaism, divine name of patriarches in P, Gn 17:1; 28:3; 35:11; 48:3 Ex 6:3, Gn 43:14 (RP); so Ez 10:5 (del. Co; but G &#931;&#945;&#948;&#948;&#945;&#953;).

Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 994​

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the Septuagint ...supposed translation of shaddai into almighty esp when El Gibbor already means that

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Where does it say that more than one Hebrew word cannot have the same meaning in English? There are at least 2 Hebrew words translated law in the OT &#1495;&#1511;/cho&#770;q and &#1514;&#1468;&#1512;&#1492;/Torah. There are 7 Hebrew words translated "worship."

Der Alter said:

Wrong x 3. The LXX is not unverifiable. The LXX is not unsubstantiated. And no verifiably inaccurate facts.

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The only thing that substantiates the LXX as authoritative or credible is the Letter of Aristeas.


The Septuagint is claimed to have been translated during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus of Alexandria, Egypt, supposedly at the request of his librarian, Demetrius of Phalerum. The king supposedly sent a request to Eleazar, the chief priest in Jerusalem requesting translators, to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, for his library at Alexandria. The letter known as the Letter of Aristeas describes how Ptolemy II requested translators and Eleazar sent 72 scribes, who translated the Septuagint in 72-days. Hence, the name Septuagint, means Seventy from the Latin septuaginta,&#8220;70&#8221;. Aristeas, the alleged writer of this letter, claims to have been a Greek court official during the time of Philadelphus' reign, but there are several big problems with the letter. First, Aristeas gives some Greek names of the translators, definitely not the names of Hebrew scholars, and some of the Hebrew names seem to be from a later time period than alleged. Here are the biggest give aways:
the supposed "librarian," Demetrius of Phalerum (345-283 BC) served in the court of Ptolemy Soter. Demetrius was never the librarian under Philadelphus. Oops!! That is quite a large detail for Aristeas to miss! In fact he was probably dead at the time the Septuagint was allegedly written. Further, the letter quotes the king telling Demetrius and the translators, when they arrived, how they came on the anniversary of his "naval victory over Antigonus." But the only such recorded Egyptian naval victory occurred many years after Demetrius death. It is pretty obvious that the letter was written considerably later as an attempt to lend credibility to the LXX, but by a person who got some important details wrong due to the passage of time. It's an obvious fraud. The LXX was probably written in Alexandria by Jews who wanted their scriptures in Greek, and possibly under the general budget of the Alexandrian library. And the letter of Aristeas added later as an embellishment by someone trying lend credence to it as an alternative to the missing Hebrew OT. Over the centuries the claims grew like it being used by Jesus - that one I really have to just dismiss. It is absurd, although it is possible that some of the writers of the NT used it as source material for their quotes of the OT. But that hardly validates the text.

Where does it say that more than one Hebrew word cannot have the same meaning in English? There are at least 2 Hebrew words translated law in the OT &#1495;&#1511;/cho&#770;q and &#1514;&#1468;&#1512;&#1492;/Torah. There are 7 Hebrew words translated "worship."

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Well, you do have me there. It is possible for more than one word to mean the same thing or basically the same thing, but when push comes to shove, the Jews really don't even know what shaddai means anymore - the meaning has been lost to them. Nor do they really know what YHWH means. If they did, that meaning was lost too, and as scripture says they have ended up profaning His holy name among the Gentiles whithersoever they were scattered because they worship and teach without full understanding. In fact there is evidence that the vowels for adonai were substituted in YHWH in order to not speak the holy name. So the long and short of it is, although some may believe it is possible that shaddai means mighty, it is not likely, and in light of the Septuagint's dubious history, the reader should not accept such an interpretation in light of the scriptural usage of the word and I maintain that it doesn't mean that.