Martin Luther and Rome

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BobRyan

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I will. However, I asked you a question first. You are deflecting it by trying to get me to answer something else.



Please answer this. Thanks.

As already stated - I am not conscious of conflating anything in regards to Acts 17:11 - and as you stated if I were not aware of it, and neither was the magisterium -- you have no solution for it.

As I stated the possibility of error is a "given" in my scenario where the individual is led by God to discover the error that both he/she and his magisterium had - by direct revelation from God in true Heb 8 and John 16 fashion -- which makes Acts 17:11 work. A case of non-believers testing a first-century first-order Apostle against scripture "to see if" that apostolic teaching were so.

If the student and his parents are fully convinced of a solution to the problem in the book - but they are wrong -- it is the teacher who corrects. And so the Holy Spirit is "the teacher" of each one in Heb 8 - each one of us.

My solution is to bring in a third party who is all-knowing, and infinite.

You seem to be stuck when it comes to the scenario you propose.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Tzaousios

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As already stated - I am not conscious of conflating anything in regards to Acts 17:11 - and as you stated if I were not aware of it, and neither was the magisterium -- you have no solution for it.

Okay, so you state that you are not conscious of conflating. However, if you are not conscious of it, does that not also leave the possibility that conflation might realistically happen with respect to the SDA interpretive tradition and Acts 17:11?

Also, I am not Roman Catholic and do not seek to engage in apologetics to justify its teaching Magisterium. However, despite the good intentions by clothing the SDA interpretive tradition in Acts 17:11, I still see it as just that, an interpretive tradition that comes out of post-Reformation politics. Thus, I see no reason as to why I should accept it over the Roman Catholic Magisterium or vice versa.

As I stated the possibility of error is a "given" in my scenario where the individual is led by God to discover the error that both he/she and his magisterium had - by direct revelation from God in true Heb 8 and John 16 fashion -- which makes Acts 17:11.

That is a rosy, idealistic scenario. However, what reason does one have to believe that the Holy Spirit has led the SDA interpretive tradition to the right interpretation over that of the Roman Catholic one? Also, how does one distinguish between what is self-legitimating and -justifying rhetoric and what is actually Spirit-led truth?

If the student and his parents are fully convinced of a solution to the problem in the book - but they are wrong -- it is the teacher who corrects. And so the Holy Spirit is "the teacher" of each one in Heb 8 - each one of us.

I understand this scenario. However, see my comments above for what I perceive the problem to be.
 
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BobRyan

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Okay, so you state that you are not conscious of conflating. However, if you are not conscious of it, does that not also leave the possibility that conflation might realistically happen with respect to the SDA interpretive tradition and Acts 17:11?

I have stated that the Heb 8 and Acts 17:11 model presupposes error can exist and that an infallible - all-knowing third party is needed.

I keep stating my solution to the problem which is never that I assume I cannot be mistaken nor can the magisterium ever be mistaken.

You have proposed no logical alternative at all.

Also, I am not Roman Catholic and do not seek to engage in apologetics to justify its teaching Magisterium.
Then presumably you have no reason to be at odds with Luther or Acts 17:11.

So far the only Bible evidence you give that Acts 17:11 could be a mistake is .... well ... nothing. Just the idea that people can make mistakes. But that does not mean that everything is a mistake.

However, despite the good intentions by clothing the SDA interpretive tradition in Acts 17:11, I still see it as just that, an interpretive tradition that comes out of post-Reformation politics.
Because you choose to tell yourself that kind of story.

It is illogical to assume that the Bible is wrong in all areas where it presents the correcting mechanism unless you are in fact wiser than God.

Thus, I see no reason as to why I should accept it over the Roman Catholic Magisterium or vice versa.
As a non-Catholic you have every expectation to accept the Bible over "believe whatever catholics tell me to believe - after all the dark ages went so well".

How could that possibly be even a little confusing to a non-Catholic??

The SDA church did not write Heb 8 or Acts 17:11 ... yet you start of adopting the Catholic concept that you cannot know what the Bible says until the Catholic church tells you what to think.

That might be logical for a cradle-catholic ... but not for a non-Catholic.


However, what reason does one have to believe that the Holy Spirit has led the SDA interpretive tradition to the right interpretation over that of the Roman Catholic one?
History bears that out -- as it turns out.



I understand this scenario. However, see my comments above for what I perceive the problem to be.
You have shown no solution at all to "what if you and the magisterium are both wrong and don't know it".

You propose a scenario that applies to all people all magisteriums - even the RCC.

You don't propose a logical solution.

I do. I say the Bible is very easy to read - read it. Believe it and notice that in Act 17:11 the very thing you claim cannot happen - is taking place.

That should be "a hint" (among the many others listed here) that your premise is flawed.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Tzaousios

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I have stated that the Heb 8 and Acts 17:11 model presupposes error can exist and that an infallible - all-knowing third party is needed.

Okay, but you leave out the fact that you presuppose that the Holy Spirit has mediated the correct, infallible tradition to you within the SDA interpretive framework. You have no way of distinguishing realistically between that and the Roman Catholic one.

I keep stating my solution to the problem which is never that I assume I cannot be mistaken nor can the magisterium ever be mistaken.

Interesting. Can you please provide an example where you were mistaken within the SDA interpretive framework?

You have proposed no logical alternative at all.

I am not sure that this is necessary since my initial post(s) did not claim to have one or seek to establish one. For you, is there a "logical alternative" outside the SDA interpretive framework?

Then presumably you have no reason to be at odds with Luther or Acts 17:11.

The point of the Apostles in travelling around the Roman world and establishing churches and later issuing pastoral and doctrinal epistles was to provide an interpretive framework for examining the Scriptures and living a moral life. The Thessalonians in Acts 17:11 were no different in this regard.

Do you believe that the interpretive framework used by the SDA is the same that the Thessalonians used?

So far the only Bible evidence you give that Acts 17:11 could be a mistake is .... well ... nothing. Just the idea that people can make mistakes. But that does not mean that everything is a mistake.

Why would I offer "Bible evidence" that would show another piece of Bible evidence to be "mistaken"? I believe in the truth of Scripture just as you do. However, as I have been trying to point out, I am willing to admit that interpretive frameworks exist, we are all influenced by them and a host of other factors, and finally that it is up to me to decide which one I think the Spirit mediates truth through.

Just the idea that people can make mistakes. But that does not mean that everything is a mistake.

This is a very important principle, nonetheless. It is why I asked you to provide an example of where you made a mistake within the SDA interpretive framework. If you cannot, then you merely pay lip service to the potential of making mistakes.
 
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Albion

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As already stated - I am not conscious of conflating anything in regards to Acts 17:11 - and as you stated if I were not aware of it, and neither was the magisterium -- you have no solution for it.

I believe that he used "conflating" first, but you have used it more often.

Advantage Bob.
 
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Tzaousios

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Tzaousios said:
However, despite the good intentions by clothing the SDA interpretive tradition in Acts 17:11, I still see it as just that, an interpretive tradition that comes out of post-Reformation politics.
Because you choose to tell yourself that kind of story.

Mr. Ryan, please do not patronize me. With rhetorical rejoinders like this, you have only given me more evidence that you are incapable or unwilling to distinguish between the SDA interpretive tradition and the true, infallible interpretation that the Holy Spirit mediates.

It is illogical to assume that the Bible is wrong in all areas where it presents the correcting mechanism unless you are in fact wiser than God.

Of course it is. It is also illogical to attribute to me something I never said. You are conflating "what the Bible plainly says" with your presupposition that the Holy Spirit has mediated the infallible truth to you through an unacknowledged SDA interpretive tradition.

As a non-Catholic you have every expectation to accept the Bible over "believe whatever catholics tell me to believe - after all the dark ages went so well".

This is a pejorative reference that is designed to portray all Catholics as having no ultimate choice in their acceptance of the Catholic Magisterium, while the choice of the SDA's interpretive tradition is legitimized as being wholly Spirit-led and mediated.

How could that possibly be even a little confusing to a non-Catholic??

Because I acknowledge that there is stifling and ultimately unhelpful rhetorical baggage left over from the Reformation that demands that certain (if not most) Protestant sects define what they do in reaction to and against "what those Catholics do." I reject this approach and am highly suspicious of those who will not acknowledge that it exists on a basic level.

The SDA church did not write Heb 8 or Acts 17:11 ... yet you start of adopting the Catholic concept that you cannot know what the Bible says until the Catholic church tells you what to think.

Incorrect. As I mentioned before, I think the SDA, and other Protestant sects, refuse to admit that they often conflate their particular interpretive tradition with "what the Bible plainly says" and devise all sorts of rhetorical constructions to cover it up.

Ultimately it is up the individual to decide which interpretive tradition they believe mediates the truth in this life on this side of Heaven. Rarely (not never) is it a case of reading and knowing "what the Bible plainly says" outside of this tradition or set of influences.

Tzaousios said:
However, what reason does one have to believe that the Holy Spirit has led the SDA interpretive tradition to the right interpretation over that of the Roman Catholic one?
BobRyan said:
History bears that out -- as it turns out.

Oh, please do tell how. Be specific.
 
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Setyoufree

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Didn't you know the SDAs saved Christianity? Gosh it took us so long to realize that their is no hell, are souls are not immortal, we must keep the sabbath and hate on Roman Catholics.

More sidetracking attempts to get the heat off of Roman....

1] There is no hell now. The lake of fire is future. It is the result of God abandonment, and leads to the 2nd death.

2] The soul isn't immortal. God alone is immortal. Teaching the soul is immortal is teaching that something good exist in the believer and hence the soul, after the death of the body, makes it to heaven under its own steam without the resurrection. This doctrine attacks the gospel.

3] The Sabbath, as taught in the NT under the NC is a sign of God's rest from His perfect & final work of redemption in Christ Jesus. To rest the 7th-day is a sign that I can't add to God's finished work in Christ. Any other type of Sabbath keeping belongs to the OC. Sunday, from Roman's perspective (not the Protestant), is a sign of their authority and represents man's way of salvation; not God's.

4] Hate? Are Christians called to hate? No! Yet both Jesus & Paul corrected heresy. They loved the sinner, but hated the sin.
 
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MoreCoffee

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The topic was: Martin Luther and Rome. It seems that it now is "SDA's and Rome".

Why must threads so often be hijacked by "agendas"?:confused:
Mostly because of two things (1) All the Law and Seventh Day threads are now in a subforum of their own and (2) SDA teaching evidently must express itself as opposed to Catholic teaching whenever it is possible to do so.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Mostly because of two things (1) All the Law and Seventh Day threads are now in a subforum of their own and (2) SDA teaching evidently must express itself as opposed to Catholic teaching whenever it is possible to do so.

Agreed Coffee, and in expressing their opposition to Catholic teaching, they are also at odds with Lutheran teaching. As far as this thread goes, the SDA Church does not even have a dog in the hunt.:)
 
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MoreCoffee

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Agreed Coffee, and in expressing their opposition to Catholic teaching, they are also at odds with Lutheran teaching. As far as this thread goes, the SDA Church does not even have a dog in the hunt.:)
You'd think so, but 'inspired' SDA literature claims Martin Luther as an ancestor for the SDA church and its doctrine albeit he's evidently an imperfect ancestor who compromised on all manner of things 'Catholic' and hence needed correction by way of the restoration (as if from exile) of the remnant church which is, according to Ellen White, the SDA church.
 
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Tzaousios

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2] The soul isn't immortal. God alone is immortal. Teaching the soul is immortal is teaching that something good exist in the believer and hence the soul, after the death of the body, makes it to heaven under its own steam without the resurrection. This doctrine attacks the gospel.

No, it does not. Are you beating around the bush so that you don't have to regurgitate the SDA line about "soul sleep?" You are creating a false dilemma where any interpretation which does not conform to yours is automatically considered "Pelagianism" or "semi-Pelagianism.'
 
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MoreCoffee

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How do you know that either you or the SDA denomination does not conflate (purposefully or otherwise) "the Acts 17:11 method of scripture" with a particular hermeneutical tradition to which good SDA members are to subscribe?
The hermeneutic of Acts 17 is this, "What Jesus Christ taught is the teaching of God and Christ's coming as the Word of God was foretold in the Law and the Prophets in fact Jesus Christ is the reason for the existence of the Law and the Prophets because they bear testimony to him" but many readers read into verse eleven a wholly foreign hermeneutic; namely, that Jesus Christ's words are rightly judged by what one reads in the holy writings of Judaism. Some like to pretend that the Beroean Jews set the example which Christians are to aspire to when the purpose of the passage (verses one to twelve) is actually to present the supremacy of Christ and his claims over all other claims and all other things. The Beroean Jews were noble compared to the Thessalonian Jews because the Beroean Jews listened to the gospel message and checked that what Paul said about Jesus was really in their scrolls of the Law and the Prophets while those from Thessalonica heard and rejected the gospel (though some Jews in Thessalonica did believe the gospel and became Christians).
Suppose for a moment that you and or the RCC conflated something in Matt 16 so as to make Peter the "Petra" foundation stone of the church "No other Petra can anyone lay other than was laid - Jesus Christ" 1Cor 3 ... how would you know that they had made such a mistake??

By asking them "hey -- have you made a mistake?"

Is that what you propose I do with Acts 17:11 - go to my "magisterium and ask them if they think they are in error?".

Didn't Martin Luther already try that out at Worms?

How did that go again?

in Christ,

Bob
Catholics do not suppose that Peter is the foundation stone mentioned in first Corinthians chapter three verses ten and eleven. So no question of conflating Matthew chapter sixteen verses eighteen and nineteen to first Corinthians chapter three verse eleven arises because it is never done. Peter is the rock upon which Christ builds the Church as Jesus said. Jesus Christ is the foundation upon which the faithful build and Paul's preaching was the laying of Christ as the foundation upon which the Corinthian Christians were to build. That is what Paul says,
1 Corinthians 3:10-11 NAB (10) According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, (11) for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.​
 
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Setyoufree

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No, it does not. Are you beating around the bush so that you don't have to regurgitate the SDA line about "soul sleep?"

Sleep, according to Christ is a metaphor. In reality all die the 1st death.

Everything has been polluted by the fall: body, soul and spirit. The whole man is a sinner! If not, there's something good in him that doesn't need the righteousness of Christ nor the resurrection. And Yes, it absolutely attacks the gospel.
 
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