Irrefutable proof for Sabbath and TEN Commandments

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VictorC

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A factual point from historical conversation - let's discuss it.

Bob
There - fixed that for you. You haven't done anything to reconcile your contradictions with Scripture in the past, deferring to pretense that Scripture has a private meaning only you can decipher, which in turn can't be reconciled with what the various inspired authors recorded as direct quotes from God.

So, where's this "irrefutable proof", Bob? Logical fallacies and repeated mistakes are not at all convincing.
 
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VictorC

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I'm a first hand witness to the conversation. You have not answered the question.
I beg to differ - you are playing the role of the "gamer" so that no matter how many times the answer is given you simply pretend not to see it.

A true first hand witness -- not of my denomination , and one who does not share my answer/solution would be Mercy or Gibbs. So far Mercy has refused to play your game in regard to that question.

Let's see if Mercy or Gibbs "notices" the answer in red, and in bold, and in underline even though it may differ with the way Mercy would answer the question.

I can't believe that even you would claim that the non-gammers would miss the fact that the "obvious" answer has been posted repeatedly -- whether they agree with my answer or not.

Bob
You can beg all you want to, but it doesn't change my account as a first-hand witness to CF's server dispassionately churning out the input from your keyboard. You have not answered the question. In fact, answering a simple query regarding your opinion of your soteriology based on the Sabbath seems to be the hardest challenge confronting you. What is the matter with you?
 
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Shiny Gospel Shoes

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"...Knowledge...", "...Salvation..."

Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Job 21:7

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. Job 21:24

Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. Job 36:9

He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. Job 36:10

If they obey and serve [him], they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. Job 36:11

But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. Job 36:12

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Proverbs 1:22

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Proverbs 1:29

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Deuteronomy 5:29

Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. Psalms 119:66

For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. Malachi 2:7

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: Proverbs 6:23

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18

Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. Psalms 119:19

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
And God spake all these words, saying, Exodus 20:1

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exodus 20:2
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; Exodus 20:5
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exodus 20:7

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exodus 20:9
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11


Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12

Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

Thou shalt not steal. Exodus 20:15

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:17
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:142

Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. Psalms 72:2

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Psalms 96:13

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. Psalms 98:9

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

"For we know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall. Proverbs 10:8

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:3

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19

"...without excuse..." - [Link]
 
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"...Knowledge...", "...Salvation..."

Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Job 21:7

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. Job 21:24

Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. Job 36:9

He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. Job 36:10

If they obey and serve [him], they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. Job 36:11

But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. Job 36:12

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Proverbs 1:22

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Proverbs 1:29

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Deuteronomy 5:29

Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. Psalms 119:66

For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. Malachi 2:7

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: Proverbs 6:23

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18

Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. Psalms 119:19

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
And God spake all these words, saying, Exodus 20:1

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exodus 20:2
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; Exodus 20:5
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exodus 20:7

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exodus 20:9
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11


Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12

Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

Thou shalt not steal. Exodus 20:15

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:17
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:142

Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. Psalms 72:2

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Psalms 96:13

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. Psalms 98:9

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

"For we know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall. Proverbs 10:8

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:3

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19

"...without excuse..." - [Link]

Yawn! Nice pile of verses. To bad you don't accept the New Covenant and its provision of salvation.
 
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Repeating your fallacy isn't going to make your diversion come true. Neither is repeating old material already refuted long ago in multiple posts. Coming back with a denial of "real life" you find it hard to participate in isn't helping your cause, either.

I'm still waiting for that "irrefutable proof" for your unholy rendition of the Sabbath. It doesn't look like you have the goods.
I'm waiting also. I'm a tad afraid it will turn out like the skeleton on the park bench waiting for Mr. or Mrs. Right as the case may be.
 
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Answered multiple times and in the case of the quote above answered 3 times.

I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over.

Why keep up that game?

I don't understand the incentive. Who would be confused on this point by now?

I don't think you are -- and I know that I am not.

in Christ,

Bob
Game? More like a merry-go-round that never stops. Recess was over long ago and school is out for the summer.

Who started this thread anyway spinning the merry-go-round?
 
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I beg to differ - you are playing the role of the "gamer" so that no matter how many times the answer is given you simply pretend not to see it.

A true first hand witness -- not of my denomination , and one who does not share my answer/solution would be Mercy or Gibbs. So far Mercy has refused to play your game in regard to that question.

Let's see if Mercy or Gibbs "notices" the answer in red, and in bold, and in underline even though it may differ with the way Mercy would answer the question.

I can't believe that even you would claim that the non-gammers would miss the fact that the "obvious" answer has been posted repeatedly -- whether they agree with my answer or not.

in Christ,

Bob
It appears to me that anyone not taking your POV is a gamer. In the sense you use the word you're really saying you're not. Oh really? Well I guess that is right because I view it as a war over the souls of mankind.
 
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mercy1061

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Where is your simple yes or no? Post number please?

Yeshua did not answer every question the hypocrites asked him,

Matt 21:27
And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said to them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

What about when the three hebrew boys refused to answer the king?

Dan 3:16
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.

If he says to you, "DEPART from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity", it is obvious that he knows you, because he knows you are a worker of iniquity. So what I gather from this passage; even if he knows you are a worker of iniquity, he will never know you, if you are worker of iniquity!

In order for a man to "depart" he must first establish fellowship with the person his leaving. However I am sure you are familiar with the law that states "guilty by association". G-d will never associate himself with those that practice iniquity or lawlessness.

Let me make myself clear to eliminate confusion, I am not advocating for "saved NOT always saved" or "saved always saved", but I do agree "once circumcised on the 8th day always circumcised"; the foreskin never grows back.
 
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Hentenza

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Yeshua did not answer every question the hypocrites asked him,

Matt 21:27
And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said to them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

What about when the three hebrew boys refused to answer the king?

Dan 3:16
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.

1. I am not asking Jesus. I am asking a poster here.
2. Jesus explained everything to His disciples. I am His disciple.

If he says to you, "DEPART from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity", it is obvious that he knows you, because he knows you are a worker of iniquity. So what I gather from this passage; even if he knows you are a worker of iniquity, he will never know you, if you are worker of iniquity!
1. Actually, this verse in Matthew does not refer to mere "workers of iniquity' but to false prophets. See Matt. 7:15 for clarification.

2. Paul explains in Romans 4, which includes references to the OT, that:

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”


Who are those whose LAWLESS deeds have been forgiven and whose sin have been covered? Who is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?




In order for a man to "depart" he must first establish fellowship with the person his leaving. However I am sure you are familiar with the law that states "guilty by association". G-d will never associate himself with those that practice iniquity or lawlessness.
Nope. To "depart" does not mean a prior relationship which is the point of this verse. The false prophets did a number of signs and wonders in the name of Jesus but because they were false prophets, who work for their glory and are workers of inequity, they never knew Jesus and Jesus never knew them. So, yes, you do not want to associate with false prophets. It is important not to isolate verses but to read them in context.

Let me make myself clear to eliminate confusion, I am not advocating for "saved NOT always saved" or "saved always saved", but I do agree "once circumcised on the 8th day always circumcised"; the foreskin never grows back.
lol And yet: "
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who [b]are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love" (Gal. 5).



I won't be receiving circumcision at any time.
 
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mercy1061

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1. I am not asking Jesus. I am asking a poster here.

I NEVER said that you were asking Yeshua, however when the king asked the three hebrew boys, they refused to answer the king. Are you greater than the king of babylon?

2. Jesus explained everything to His disciples. I am His disciple.

No he did not! Yeshua did not answer every question his disciples asked him. The students should answer the questions from the teacher for a good grade, the teacher does not have to answer his students in every matter, especially those matters that involve administration. If a student ask me will he get suspended if he fights, and I will direct the student's question to the principal. Afterall it is the principal that handle suspensions. How do I know this after many years of teaching?

1. Actually, this verse in Matthew does not refer to mere "workers of iniquity' but to false prophets. See Matt. 7:15 for clarification.

It says "workers of iniquity" so it means "workers of iniquity", it can also mean false prophets. False prophets are workers of iniquity! Why do argue a moot point that never will strengthen your case?

2. Paul explains in Romans 4, which includes references to the OT, that:

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works:

G-d credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works.

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Those who repent will be forgiven. Repentance was the first gospel message.

Who are those whose LAWLESS deeds have been forgiven and whose sin have been covered? Who is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?

The ancient jews covered "holy" things in the old testament, but you do not observe the law. The "ark of the covenant" was covered with the mercy seat made of pure gold, but you reject Moses. How can you accept the "mercy seat" without the "ark of the covenant"?


Nope. To "depart" does not mean a prior relationship which is the point of this verse.

"DEPART from me"

"DEPART from me"

IF I say "DEPART from the doctrine of once saved always saved", what do I mean? What does depart mean?

Depart

defintion:
1. to go away; leave: She departed from Paris today. The train departs at 10:52.
2. to diverge or deviate (usually followed by from ): The new method departs from the old in several respects.
3. to pass away, as from life or existence; die.
verb (used with object) 4. to go away from; leave: to depart this life.

noun 5. Archaic. departure; death.


The false prophets did a number of signs and wonders in the name of Jesus but because they were false prophets, who work for their glory and are workers of inequity, they never knew Jesus and Jesus never knew them. So, yes, you do not want to associate with false prophets. It is important not to isolate verses but to read them in context.

How did they do miracles when they were workers of iniquity?

John 9:31
We know that God doesn't listen to sinners, but he is ready to hear those who worship him and do his will.


lol And yet: "
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

How did Christ benefit them? Christ only beneift those who obey the law. After all Christ obeyed the whole law.

3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Amen.

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who [b]are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

They have fallen from grace, seeking to be justified by law, of course, circumcision includes "cutting" off the foreskin. Does not the law prove that you are sinners, so why would you use the law to justify your ungodly behavior? It is like you know the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments therefore required, then you seek to use the law that you do not obey to condemn your brother. The law says "remember the Sabbath", then you ask your brother, "is the sabbath required for salvation"?

5 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

WAITING for the hope of righteousness;

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love" (Gal. 5).

Abraham circumcised himself as well as his sons and servants, Abraham walked by faith. How is it beautiful or lovely to ask "if keeping G-d's holy commandments are required for salvation"?

I won't be receiving circumcision at any time.
What about the circumcision from the heart?
 
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Hentenza

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I NEVER said that you were asking Yeshua, however when the king asked the three hebrew boys, they refused to answer the king. Are you greater than the king of babylon?

Actually all Christians are much greater than the king of Babylon.



No he did not! Yeshua did not answer every question his disciples asked him. The students should answer the questions from the teacher for a good grade, the teacher does not have to answer his students in every matter, especially those matters that involve administration. If a student ask me will he get suspended if he fights, and I will direct the student's question to the principal. Afterall it is the principal that handle suspensions. How do I know this after many years of teaching?

Jesus answered all questions posed by His disciples. All of them. And then He sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples to reveal all truth to them. Christ is not a principal of a school.



It says "workers of iniquity" so it means "workers of iniquity", it can also mean false prophets. False prophets are workers of iniquity! Why do argue a moot point that never will strengthen your case?

This is what you stated: "If he says to you, "DEPART from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity", it is obvious that he knows you, because he knows you are a worker of iniquity. So what I gather from this passage; even if he knows you are a worker of iniquity, he will never know you, if you are worker of iniquity!"

You claim that the workers on inequity knew Jesus. My argument is that the workers of inequity (false prophets in the context of this passage) never knew Jesus, consequently Jesus never knew them.



6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works:

G-d credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works.

Really? Are you now changing scripture? The Greek preposition used here is χωρὶς which means "without." God credits righteousness "without" the works of the Law.

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Those who repent will be forgiven. Repentance was the first gospel message.

Sure, but this is not what this verse is talking about. The Greek noun ἀνομίαι means "without law." The verse states that blessed are those whose deeds without the Jewish law have been forgiven. Repentance (Greek noun μετάνοιάν) means "a change of mind" which is something that Israel, having the Law, did often and then went back to their wicked ways so they repented again creating a cycle of repentance and falling away. The letter of the Law kills and those proposing that the Law is necessary for the Christian are removing true repentance and God's grace. Grace and the Law are opposites.


The ancient jews covered "holy" things in the old testament, but you do not observe the law. The "ark of the covenant" was covered with the mercy seat made of pure gold, but you reject Moses. How can you accept the "mercy seat" without the "ark of the covenant"?

This is not even hinted in this verse. Again, Who are those whose LAWLESS deeds have been forgiven and whose sin have been covered? Who is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account? Remember that in this verse those whose deeds have been forgiven are WITHOUT the Jewish Law.

I reject the Law of Moses because it was never given to me, a gentile. The Law of Moses was given to Israel.




"DEPART from me"

"DEPART from me"

IF I say "DEPART from the doctrine of once saved always saved", what do I mean? What does depart mean?

Depart

defintion:
1. to go away; leave: She departed from Paris today. The train departs at 10:52.
2. to diverge or deviate (usually followed by from ): The new method departs from the old in several respects.
3. to pass away, as from life or existence; die.
verb (used with object) 4. to go away from; leave: to depart this life.

noun 5. Archaic. departure; death.

You continue to interpret verses in a vacuum.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’

Many= false prophets.
Will say= rendered in the future indicative Active. This means that the false prophets have not said this to Jesus before. This means that their "prophecies in Jesus name" and their "miracles" were not done in Jesus name but on their name. This means that they do not recognize Jesus as their Lord even though they call Him Lord. This means that they are not known to Jesus.
On that day= day of judgment.

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Taking this verse in context, and since the previous verse explicitly explains that these false prophets did not know Jesus, and since in this verse Jesus explicitly states that He does not know them, and since they had not come to plead their case prior to the day of judgment, then Jesus is telling a group of false prophets that came on the day of Judgment to plead their case to depart from Him. Jesus never knew them prior to this moment. Since Jesus knows the "voice" of His sheep, then these were never part of them.


How did they do miracles when they were workers of iniquity?

John 9:31
We know that God doesn't listen to sinners, but he is ready to hear those who worship him and do his will.

Once again, lets take this verse in context.

24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?” 28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.” 30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32 [d]Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.


The verse you posted was uttered by the Pharisees in respond to the blind man's argument that he had been healed by Jesus. The Pharisees are attempting to rebuke the now-seeing man's claim that He is now the disciple of Jesus without having spoken to Moses. The Pharisees, of course, are wrong because Jesus came while we were YET sinners. They failed to recognize the Messiah. Are you in agreement with the Pharisees?





How did Christ benefit them? Christ only beneift those who obey the law. After all Christ obeyed the whole law.

Christ did indeed obeyed the whole law. In fact, He was the only one that could and having fulfilled the Law nailed it to the cross in the full view of everyone.

Col. 2
13 When you were dead [k]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had [l]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through [m]Him.


They have fallen from grace, seeking to be justified by law, of course, circumcision includes "cutting" off the foreskin. Does not the law prove that you are sinners, so why would you use the law to justify your ungodly behavior? It is like you know the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments therefore required, then you seek to use the law that you do not obey to condemn your brother. The law says "remember the Sabbath", then you ask your brother, "is the sabbath required for salvation"?

The verse is clear. All that follow the Law are attempting justification by their works of the Law and have fallen from grace. Since the Jewish law is no longer binding on the Christian because:

"13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear" (Heb. 8) and the Old Covenant included the Jewish Law, and:

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [ai]tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [aj]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [ak]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [al]descendants, heirs according to promise.

Since the last remaining role of the Jewish Law is to bring unbelievers to Christ, and since the role of the Jewish Law no longer applies to those who are believers, and since Jesus is our Sabbath rest (the Sabbath is no longer defined as a day but as the savior), and since salvation is by the grace of God through faith in the son, then adherence to the Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments, given to Israel is not necessary for salvation.


WAITING for the hope of righteousness;



Abraham circumcised himself as well as his sons and servants, Abraham walked by faith. How is it beautiful or lovely to ask "if keeping G-d's holy commandments are required for salvation"?

Yes, God declared Abraham righteous because of his faith not because of his adherence to the yet-to-be-given Jewish Law.
 
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I NEVER said that you were asking Yeshua, however when the king asked the three hebrew boys, they refused to answer the king. Are you greater than the king of babylon?



No he did not! Yeshua did not answer every question his disciples asked him. The students should answer the questions from the teacher for a good grade, the teacher does not have to answer his students in every matter, especially those matters that involve administration. If a student ask me will he get suspended if he fights, and I will direct the student's question to the principal. Afterall it is the principal that handle suspensions. How do I know this after many years of teaching?



It says "workers of iniquity" so it means "workers of iniquity", it can also mean false prophets. False prophets are workers of iniquity! Why do argue a moot point that never will strengthen your case?



6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works:

G-d credits righteousness "A" "PART" from works.

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Those who repent will be forgiven. Repentance was the first gospel message.



The ancient jews covered "holy" things in the old testament, but you do not observe the law. The "ark of the covenant" was covered with the mercy seat made of pure gold, but you reject Moses. How can you accept the "mercy seat" without the "ark of the covenant"?




"DEPART from me"

"DEPART from me"

IF I say "DEPART from the doctrine of once saved always saved", what do I mean? What does depart mean?

Depart

defintion:
1. to go away; leave: She departed from Paris today. The train departs at 10:52.
2. to diverge or deviate (usually followed by from ): The new method departs from the old in several respects.
3. to pass away, as from life or existence; die.
verb (used with object) 4. to go away from; leave: to depart this life.

noun 5. Archaic. departure; death.




How did they do miracles when they were workers of iniquity?

John 9:31
We know that God doesn't listen to sinners, but he is ready to hear those who worship him and do his will.




How did Christ benefit them? Christ only beneift those who obey the law. After all Christ obeyed the whole law.



Amen.



They have fallen from grace, seeking to be justified by law, of course, circumcision includes "cutting" off the foreskin. Does not the law prove that you are sinners, so why would you use the law to justify your ungodly behavior? It is like you know the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments therefore required, then you seek to use the law that you do not obey to condemn your brother. The law says "remember the Sabbath", then you ask your brother, "is the sabbath required for salvation"?



WAITING for the hope of righteousness;



Abraham circumcised himself as well as his sons and servants, Abraham walked by faith. How is it beautiful or lovely to ask "if keeping G-d's holy commandments are required for salvation"?


What about the circumcision from the heart?

It appears you're claiming to be a teacher while others aren't.
 
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Actually all Christians are much greater than the king of Babylon.





Jesus answered all questions posed by His disciples. All of them. And then He sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples to reveal all truth to them. Christ is not a principal of a school.





This is what you stated: "If he says to you, "DEPART from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity", it is obvious that he knows you, because he knows you are a worker of iniquity. So what I gather from this passage; even if he knows you are a worker of iniquity, he will never know you, if you are worker of iniquity!"

You claim that the workers on inequity knew Jesus. My argument is that the workers of inequity (false prophets in the context of this passage) never knew Jesus, consequently Jesus never knew them.





Really? Are you now changing scripture? The Greek preposition used here is χωρὶς which means "without." God credits righteousness "without" the works of the Law.



Sure, but this is not what this verse is talking about. The Greek noun ἀνομίαι means "without law." The verse states that blessed are those whose deeds without the Jewish law have been forgiven. Repentance (Greek noun μετάνοιάν) means "a change of mind" which is something that Israel, having the Law, did often and then went back to their wicked ways so they repented again creating a cycle of repentance and falling away. The letter of the Law kills and those proposing that the Law is necessary for the Christian are removing true repentance and God's grace. Grace and the Law are opposites.




This is not even hinted in this verse. Again, Who are those whose LAWLESS deeds have been forgiven and whose sin have been covered? Who is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account? Remember that in this verse those whose deeds have been forgiven are WITHOUT the Jewish Law.

I reject the Law of Moses because it was never given to me, a gentile. The Law of Moses was given to Israel.






You continue to interpret verses in a vacuum.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’

Many= false prophets.
Will say= rendered in the future indicative Active. This means that the false prophets have not said this to Jesus before. This means that their "prophecies in Jesus name" and their "miracles" were not done in Jesus name but on their name. This means that they do not recognize Jesus as their Lord even though they call Him Lord. This means that they are not known to Jesus.
On that day= day of judgment.

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Taking this verse in context, and since the previous verse explicitly explains that these false prophets did not know Jesus, and since in this verse Jesus explicitly states that He does not know them, and since they had not come to plead their case prior to the day of judgment, then Jesus is telling a group of false prophets that came on the day of Judgment to plead their case to depart from Him. Jesus never knew them prior to this moment. Since Jesus knows the "voice" of His sheep, then these were never part of them.




Once again, lets take this verse in context.

24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?” 28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.” 30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32 [d]Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.


The verse you posted was uttered by the Pharisees in respond to the blind man's argument that he had been healed by Jesus. The Pharisees are attempting to rebuke the now-seeing man's claim that He is now the disciple of Jesus without having spoken to Moses. The Pharisees, of course, are wrong because Jesus came while we were YET sinners. They failed to recognize the Messiah. Are you in agreement with the Pharisees?







Christ did indeed obeyed the whole law. In fact, He was the only one that could and having fulfilled the Law nailed it to the cross in the full view of everyone.

Col. 2
13 When you were dead [k]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had [l]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through [m]Him.




The verse is clear. All that follow the Law are attempting justification by their works of the Law and have fallen from grace. Since the Jewish law is no longer binding on the Christian because:

"13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear" (Heb. 8) and the Old Covenant included the Jewish Law, and:

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [ai]tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [aj]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [ak]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [al]descendants, heirs according to promise.

Since the last remaining role of the Jewish Law is to bring unbelievers to Christ, and since the role of the Jewish Law no longer applies to those who are believers, and since Jesus is our Sabbath rest (the Sabbath is no longer defined as a day but as the savior), and since salvation is by the grace of God through faith in the son, then adherence to the Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments, given to Israel is not necessary for salvation.




Yes, God declared Abraham righteous because of his faith not because of his adherence to the yet-to-be-given Jewish Law.
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BobRyan

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Let's see if Mercy or Gibbs "notices" the answer in red, and in bold, and in underline even though it may differ with the way Mercy would answer the question.

I can't believe that even you would claim that the non-gammers would miss the fact that the "obvious" answer has been posted repeatedly -- whether they agree with my answer or not.

Those who complain that they can't find the answer so often posted - are pursuing a "novel" solution.

I find it odd that anyone would pretend they cannot see the answer posted -- just because they happen to pick another answer for themselves.

I am not asking that the reader agree with the obvious point made in the post - merely that they admit to seeing it.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Bob,

Why is it so hard for you to answer this question. My question to you is a serious one and a simple one but you continue to dodge the question.

Here is the question again: Is observing the Sabbath necessary for salvation? A simple yes or no will do.

I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

Just as I do not do such a thing with other commandments - including the Sabbath when it comes to condemning everyone else.

This point has been made numerous times - it is obvious and it points to the flaw in your solution since you yourself know that just because you do not condemn all Catholics to hell - does not mean that bowing down to images in worship is not a sin.

We all see this point - on both sides of the Sabbath - sunday issue.

Not sure why it appears to "Advance the point" for some sunday arguments - to go that failed route over again.

Who is supposed to be confused at this point?

I don't think you are - and I don't claim to be.

Why keep trying it out??
Another dodge, Bob? Is a simple question.

Answered multiple times and in the case of the quote above answered 3 times.

I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over.

Why keep up that game?

I don't understand the incentive. Who would be confused on this point by now?

I don't think you are -- and I know that I am not.

Yeshua did not answer every question the hypocrites asked him,.

Mercy - you will notice that the question that one or two circle back to on this thread - while trying to avoid the details in the OP - is this one.

Bob,

Here is the question again: Is observing the Sabbath necessary for salvation? A simple yes or no will do.

And of course The answer is posted in the quoted section above.

So here is my question for you --- can you "see" the answer to the question in that post - highlighted, underlined etc?

Because we have a few posters here claiming that they cannot "see" the answer rather than picking some detail in my answer that they do or do not like and discussing it.

So they make it all about whether they can "see" the answer rather than picking some detail in the answer to discuss.

So I am asking you for your opinion -- can the answer highlighted and underlined and in bold in the text above "be seen" -- in our opinion?

in Christ,

Bob

in Christ,

Bob
 
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This is what you wrote and highlighted in bold and red: "I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over."

Indeed - more like this...

I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

Just as I do not do such a thing with other commandments - including the Sabbath when it comes to condemning everyone else.

This point has been made numerous times - it is obvious and it points to the flaw in your solution since you yourself know that just because you do not condemn all Catholics to hell - does not mean that bowing down to images in worship is not a sin.

We all see this point - on both sides of the Sabbath - sunday issue.

Not sure why it appears to "Advance the point" for some sunday arguments - to go that failed route over again.

Who is supposed to be confused at this point?

I don't think you are - and I don't claim to be.

Why keep trying it out??
Again -- incredibly obvious "to all" even the gamers pretending they can't figure out what that english text is saying.

Which of course is a dead-end line of argument for them -- that no objective unbiased readers of this thread will agree to follow.

For those who wish to select that dead-end solution as their own - I am not wanting to deprive them of the free will choice to go down such a short rabbit trail. Perhaps they feel they fare better with such a dead-end than they would addressing the details on page 1 -- on the OP.

So back to the OP.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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"...Knowledge...", "...Salvation..."

Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Job 21:7

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. Job 21:24http://www.christianforums.com/t7820355/#post65548117

Here is another example of someone who will be able to read the english text in the privious post and state that it exists - and that it is an answer to the question asked. Even if not agreeing with the answer. Which is fine.

However it is basic communication skill to admit that the answer is posted and then either agree or differ with some reasoning in that posted answer.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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