How certain are you of your faith beliefs?

Received · Jul 11, 2014

keith99 said:
Sort of the converse of my confidence. I am sure that the God of the Bible as portrayed by many (perhaps most) American Christians does not exist.

The further one gets from an insecure all powerful God who seems to live to be worshiped the less inclined I am to be positive.

Yeah, you have faith in the goodness of a deity you believe doesn't exist. I'm not trying to a smart alec. And this doesn't mean at all that God really exists and you're just a silly atheist who doesn't have the blessed assurance of whatever. It's just interesting to me, and I'm sure if I was an atheist I'd be just like you. Nietzsche said something to the effect that atheism is Christian morality overcoming Christian metaphysics. I take that to mean that the prescriptions for action (notably "seek truth") of Christianity leads a person to reject what he thought were ridiculous metaphysics. In a similar way, I think it's commendable and even required in some situations to reject a rotten theism out of commitment to the good which God should fit, and does fit, arguably, if in fact he exists. Atheists are often people whose commitment to God as really good causes them to reject the Gods they see as really bad, which pervade so much of Chrstendom.

BL2KTN · Jul 11, 2014

I'd put the chances of deism being correct at around 65%... of theism being correct at 75%.

Ana the Ist · Jul 12, 2014

bhsmte said:
One piece I find interesting, is asking believers how certain they are of their personal faith belief and or belief in God.

In other words, I am curious how many Christians are willing to admit; they may be wrong in what they believe and it is possible, the God they believe in does not exist.

In regards to atheists, It would also be interesting to hear how many have the position, that there is a zero percent chance, that a God exists.

Thanks.

I think there is a 0% chance that any of the gods of any religion who's concept of god I'm familiar with exists.

Of course, if we're speaking of "god" as a broadly defined- creator of the universe- sort...I'll admit to there being a small chance I'm wrong (I'd say somewhere between 0% and 1%).

football5680 · Jul 12, 2014

99.9% sure. The Old Testament had hundreds of prophecies that foretold the coming of Jesus and what he would do. These prophecies were in place hundreds of years before he came to us and he fulfilled them. If you assign a conservative probability to each of them based on how likely it would be for any individual to fulfill them, it comes out to 1 in a number larger than the estimated amount of atoms in the universe. To increase the unlikelihood, the Book of Daniel gives us an exact time period of when these prophecies would be fulfilled.

I said 99.9% because I have to leave the possibility open that the most unlikely thing imaginable happened.

Golden Yak · Jul 12, 2014

football5680 said:
99.9% sure. The Old Testament had hundreds of prophecies that foretold the coming of Jesus and what he would do. These prophecies were in place hundreds of years before he came to us and he fulfilled them. If you assign a conservative probability to each of them based on how likely it would be for any individual to fulfill them, it comes out to 1 in a number larger than the estimated amount of atoms in the universe. To increase the unlikelihood, the Book of Daniel gives us an exact time period of when these prophecies would be fulfilled.

I said 99.9% because I have to leave the possibility open that the most unlikely thing imaginable happened.

So anyone wanting to pass themselves off as the messiah would know exactly how to accomplish this in advance, right?

FutureAndAHope · Jul 12, 2014

I am 110% no make that 220% ono lets just keep going infinitely, totally, and definitely sure that the Christian God - Jesus is real living, and loves me, and loves you. I have just seen too many miracles performed in my own life to doubt. See Have you ever asked yourself about the existence of God for recorded examples of these miraculous encounters from my personal life.

bhsmte · Jul 12, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
I'd put the chances of deism being correct at around 65%... of theism being correct at 75%.

Interesting. You are a deist and you put a higher chance of theism being correct vs deism?

Chany · Jul 12, 2014

I'd say that, in terms of the traditional monotheistic religions, it's pretty much a done deal. I find the idea of aliens visiting earth currently to be more likely, especially when you start getting down the specifics of each religion.

In terms of other religious forms, like pantheism and deism, I'm more agnostic; however, I don't see an actual reason to believe these things, just not as many facts going against it.

bhsmte · Jul 12, 2014

Chany said:
I'd say that, in terms of the traditional monotheistic religions, it's pretty much a done deal. I find the idea of aliens visiting earth currently to be more likely, especially when you start getting down the specifics of each religion.

In terms of other religious forms, like pantheism and deism, I'm more agnostic; however, I don't see an actual reason to believe these things, just not as many facts going against it.

I am with you on this.

I am quite certain; 99% that the God of the bible does not exist, just too much of the story can not be reconciled with reality and the morality of that God, is not pleasant and or Christianity in general.

In regards to a universal God, one that is not personal or answers prayers (the one that Einstein left the door open to) I leave more chance of that being true and would call myself agnostic towards that God, but atheist towards the Christian God.

BL2KTN · Jul 12, 2014

bhsmte said:
Interesting. You are a deist and you put a higher chance of theism being correct vs deism?

No, no... theism is an umbrella term that encompasses deism. I'm saying that there's another ten percent chance that a god exists and it isn't a deistic creator in addition to the sixty-five percent shot I think exists for a less personal divinity. These aren't hard numbers though - they're just approximations for my confidence.

Gladius · Jul 15, 2014

Atheist here:

1. Chance of any God existing = unknown
2. Chance of the God Yaweh/Jesus/Allah existing = nil (they've had circa 2,000 years to provide anything more than weak heresay evidence and they still haven't).
3. Chance of Hindu/Greek/Egyptian/Norse/Native American/Myan/{insert other claimed Gods here} = nil (no different claimed "evidence" to #2)

DogmaHunter · Jul 15, 2014

bhsmte said:
In regards to atheists, It would also be interesting to hear how many have the position, that there is a zero percent chance, that a God exists.

Thanks.

"A god" existing is something I consider pretty improbable. Not likely at all.
To put it into numbers, let's say 1 is "certain that there is a god" and 10 being "certain there is no god", I'ld give myself 9.

As for specific gods, like the god of the bible, the god of the quran, Visjnoe, Krishna, Thor, etc... The gods that come with mythology, scripture, stories, testable claims,....

I consider all those gods to be non-existent. On my scale of (un)certainty, I'ld be inclined to give myself a 10 there. But since I'm not comfortable with expressing that degree of certainty, I won't. Instead, I'll give myself 9.999999999999999....

lesliedellow · Jul 17, 2014

bhsmte said:
One piece I find interesting, is asking believers how certain they are of their personal faith belief and or belief in God.

In other words, I am curious how many Christians are willing to admit; they may be wrong in what they believe and it is possible, the God they believe in does not exist.

In regards to atheists, It would also be interesting to hear how many have the position, that there is a zero percent chance, that a God exists.

Thanks.

Of course there is a chance he doesn't exist; I just happen to think that he does. In the past I have had the experience of discovering that I believed more than I thought I did.

Jeremy E Walker · Jul 17, 2014

DogmaHunter said:
"A god" existing is something I consider pretty improbable. Not likely at all.
To put it into numbers, let's say 1 is "certain that there is a god" and 10 being "certain there is no god", I'ld give myself 9.

As for specific gods, like the god of the bible, the god of the quran, Visjnoe, Krishna, Thor, etc... The gods that come with mythology, scripture, stories, testable claims,....

I consider all those gods to be non-existent. On my scale of (un)certainty, I'ld be inclined to give myself a 10 there. But since I'm not comfortable with expressing that degree of certainty, I won't. Instead, I'll give myself 9.999999999999999....

what criteria are you using to determine that oh let's say, The Judeo-Christian, does not exist?

I mean for all intents and purposes you want us to believe that you are certain that He does not exist.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Deidre32 · Jul 17, 2014

bhsmte said:
One piece I find interesting, is asking believers how certain they are of their personal faith belief and or belief in God.

In other words, I am curious how many Christians are willing to admit; they may be wrong in what they believe and it is possible, the God they believe in does not exist.

In regards to atheists, It would also be interesting to hear how many have the position, that there is a zero percent chance, that a God exists.

Thanks.

As a former Christian, I would never have seen myself leaving the faith, and now proclaiming to be an atheist. (if only silently to myself)

I don't necessarily think that I was 'wrong,' when I was a believer. I just believed what I was raised with, and as an adult...I followed those same beliefs without questioning them too much. I had no idea that I had a choice in the matter, because I was indoctrinated as a kid. To have a choice. To look at my faith life objectively, set me on a path of questioning what I believed.

As an atheist, I don't know if there is zero chance of a higher power existing. No one knows with certainty, that a god exists or does not. Or who or what he/she/it might be.

I never want to become the kind of atheist that I disliked when I was a Christian, and that would be someone who pretends to know with absolute certainty...that a god doesn't exist, just like some Christians pretend to know with absolute certainty that one does.

NO ONE KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY.

No one.

(I don't ever want to be obsessed with having to know, one way or the other. I live my life comfortable now, with not knowing. Not having to know. I'm finally at peace with it all, having taken a few years to arrive here.)

Aldebaran · Jul 17, 2014

As a Christian, I would normally feel guilty if I admitted that I sometimes have my doubts. When I do, I also have to then explain many things away that indicates to me that God does in fact exist. When I think of just going my own way, I think much like Peter said in John 6:68-69 when he said to Jesus, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

I know I couldn't provide that for myself. I'd be like a little kid running away from home because I thought my home life wasn't much fun, only to find a cold world waiting for me that had much less for me than home ever did.

ViaCrucis · Jul 18, 2014

I regard certainty to require empirical knowledge. I'm certain that the earth is round, I'm certain that the earth revolves around the sun, I'm certain about gravity, evolution, and germ theory.

Such epistemological certainty is empirical.

As such I wouldn't say that I'm certain about my faith. I have no empirical data that, beyond reasonable doubt, leads me to conclude that Christianity and its dogmas must indeed be certainly true.

That's how I would talk about certainty in its rigid sense.

That said I am confident in my convictions. I have no problem speaking assertively that what I believe is true. If I didn't actually believe it to be, in fact, true I wouldn't believe it and believe it as strongly. But I acknowledge that it is not an empirical certainty, it does not exclude the very real possibility that everything I believe is total nonsense.

Faith, however, takes that risk I think. Faith risks being entirely wrong with no certainty. It's a leap into unknowing, is there anything to catch me after I've leapt? I don't know.

-CryptoLutheran

znr · Jul 18, 2014

Why believe any of what's written in the book if you can't believe with certainty that your trust isn't in vain?

ViaCrucis said:
I regard certainty to require empirical knowledge. I'm certain that the earth is round, I'm certain that the earth revolves around the sun, I'm certain about gravity, evolution, and germ theory.

Such epistemological certainty is empirical.

As such I wouldn't say that I'm certain about my faith. I have no empirical data that, beyond reasonable doubt, leads me to conclude that Christianity and its dogmas must indeed be certainly true.

That's how I would talk about certainty in its rigid sense.

That said I am confident in my convictions. I have no problem speaking assertively that what I believe is true. If I didn't actually believe it to be, in fact, true I wouldn't believe it and believe it as strongly. But I acknowledge that it is not an empirical certainty, it does not exclude the very real possibility that everything I believe is total nonsense.

Faith, however, takes that risk I think. Faith risks being entirely wrong with no certainty. It's a leap into unknowing, is there anything to catch me after I've leapt? I don't know.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jul 18, 2014

znr said:
Why believe any of what's written in the book if you can't believe with certainty that your trust isn't in vain?

This presumes that my faith is first and foremost in a "book" (at which point I'd also point out that the Bible isn't a book, it's a collection of books). It would indeed be true that my faith is in the Jesus presented to me in the Gospels, but the way I see it it's my belief in that Jesus that leads me to trusting the texts themselves.

If we are wanting a rational justification for my faith, I don't have one to offer.

I could of course theologize the whole thing and bring up the Lutheran understanding of how faith happens; but that's not going to get us any closer to a rational justification for having faith. As such the best I can offer is twofold:

1) I am captivated by the Jesus of the Gospels, the Jesus confessed and believed upon by the Christian Church down through the ages. Reasonable or unreasonable, I believe.

2) I could also simply put it as such: I believe because I believe. I have spent many hours trying to dissect my own faith, and I don't really have a good, reasoned, rational answer to offer. I've learned to be okay with that, but I can understand that others aren't.

Which is basically to say that I haven't gone without evaluating my own faith, I'm always evaluating my own faith. I haven't always believed as I do now, and I suspect my beliefs will continue to change throughout my life. I grew up in an Evangelical/Pentecostal household, my schooling was Fundamentalist Baptist up and through the 8th grade. Today, as a theologically traditional Lutheran and politically left-leaning person I'm about as far as one can get on the Christian spectrum from where I was growing up. That didn't happen without a constant searching and challenging of my deepest convictions.

-CryptoLutheran

znr · Jul 18, 2014

Oh I understand you better now thanks. I was referring to trust in the Jesus of the gospels which are written in the book, and not trusting in the book itself. And I may have misunderstood your other post. Im also captivated by this Jesus of the gospels.

Off topic, I find Lutheranism fascinating, but I also find charasmatic denominations fascinating. Have you ever known the two to meet?

ViaCrucis said:
This presumes that my faith is first and foremost in a "book" (at which point I'd also point out that the Bible isn't a book, it's a collection of books). It would indeed be true that my faith is in the Jesus presented to me in the Gospels, but the way I see it it's my belief in that Jesus that leads me to trusting the texts themselves.

If we are wanting a rational justification for my faith, I don't have one to offer.

I could of course theologize the whole thing and bring up the Lutheran understanding of how faith happens; but that's not going to get us any closer to a rational justification for having faith. As such the best I can offer is twofold:

1) I am captivated by the Jesus of the Gospels, the Jesus confessed and believed upon by the Christian Church down through the ages. Reasonable or unreasonable, I believe.

2) I could also simply put it as such: I believe because I believe. I have spent many hours trying to dissect my own faith, and I don't really have a good, reasoned, rational answer to offer. I've learned to be okay with that, but I can understand that others aren't.

Which is basically to say that I haven't gone without evaluating my own faith, I'm always evaluating my own faith. I haven't always believed as I do now, and I suspect my beliefs will continue to change throughout my life. I grew up in an Evangelical/Pentecostal household, my schooling was Fundamentalist Baptist up and through the 8th grade. Today, as a theologically traditional Lutheran and politically left-leaning person I'm about as far as one can get on the Christian spectrum from where I was growing up. That didn't happen without a constant searching and challenging of my deepest convictions.

-CryptoLutheran

How certain are you of your faith beliefs?

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