This is only for discussing the Pre-wrath rapture position against the post-trib position.
I'll begin with Mathew 24 and Revelation 6. I believe the parallels are far to strong to ignore. I don't want to see suggestions that possibly the parallels aren't correct, I want to see evidence which is just as clear for another position.
In Mathew 24, Jesus presents a number of things that must happen before the day of the Lord. These things are: false christs, wars, famines and earthquakes, great persecution against "you" (Christians I assume) and the gospel preached to all the nations.
Jesus follows this up by backtracking to the event which starts off the persecution of Christians: the abomination of desolation, immediately after the distress in those days "the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken, at that time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn, the angels gather god's elect from the four winds and we must keep watch because we don't know when he is coming.
Now, Revelation 6: Seal 1 is the conquering white rider (false christs/anti-christ?), Seal 2 is war, Seal 3 is famine, Seal 4 is "power of death over a fourth of the earth by sword, starvation and plague/death, and "by the beasts of the earth (the beast?), seal 5 is the completion of the behead martyrs number (implying that the 4th seal is indeed the persecution by Anti-Christ)j, seal 6 is the sun turning black like sackcloth, the moon turned blood red, the stars in the sky fell to earth and all the people of earth lamenting because "the great day of God's wrath has come".
Now, PostTrib wants me to believe that this is all merely incidental and that tiny things like "the moon not giving her light" verses "the moon turning blood red" should make me discard the whole thing.
Compare Mathew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14 to these OT verses and tell me they don't all refer to the Day of the Lord.
Isaiah 13:10, 34:4, Joel 3:15.
Note especially Isaiah 34:4 which is where the "sky rolled up like a scroll" comes from. All of the evidence points to this being the sign that occurs just before the day of the Lord and thus just before the rapture.
That puts the rapture a very, very short ways after Revelation 6 (assuming this portion of Revelation is chronological). And what do we have? After the sealing of the 144,000 Jews for protection (see the 5th trumpet), we have a great multitude from all nations who have come out of the tribulation.
Now, PostTrib (and anyone else who wants to get invovled), please demonstrate to me why I should not accept this sign as the sign Jesus spoke of. It appears extremely clear to me. To question this would be to question the very fabric of the Bible. If I can't accept something this obvious, then much of the Bible's teaching would be a complete mystery to me.
I'll begin with Mathew 24 and Revelation 6. I believe the parallels are far to strong to ignore. I don't want to see suggestions that possibly the parallels aren't correct, I want to see evidence which is just as clear for another position.
In Mathew 24, Jesus presents a number of things that must happen before the day of the Lord. These things are: false christs, wars, famines and earthquakes, great persecution against "you" (Christians I assume) and the gospel preached to all the nations.
Jesus follows this up by backtracking to the event which starts off the persecution of Christians: the abomination of desolation, immediately after the distress in those days "the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken, at that time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn, the angels gather god's elect from the four winds and we must keep watch because we don't know when he is coming.
Now, Revelation 6: Seal 1 is the conquering white rider (false christs/anti-christ?), Seal 2 is war, Seal 3 is famine, Seal 4 is "power of death over a fourth of the earth by sword, starvation and plague/death, and "by the beasts of the earth (the beast?), seal 5 is the completion of the behead martyrs number (implying that the 4th seal is indeed the persecution by Anti-Christ)j, seal 6 is the sun turning black like sackcloth, the moon turned blood red, the stars in the sky fell to earth and all the people of earth lamenting because "the great day of God's wrath has come".
Now, PostTrib wants me to believe that this is all merely incidental and that tiny things like "the moon not giving her light" verses "the moon turning blood red" should make me discard the whole thing.
Compare Mathew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14 to these OT verses and tell me they don't all refer to the Day of the Lord.
Isaiah 13:10, 34:4, Joel 3:15.
Note especially Isaiah 34:4 which is where the "sky rolled up like a scroll" comes from. All of the evidence points to this being the sign that occurs just before the day of the Lord and thus just before the rapture.
That puts the rapture a very, very short ways after Revelation 6 (assuming this portion of Revelation is chronological). And what do we have? After the sealing of the 144,000 Jews for protection (see the 5th trumpet), we have a great multitude from all nations who have come out of the tribulation.
Now, PostTrib (and anyone else who wants to get invovled), please demonstrate to me why I should not accept this sign as the sign Jesus spoke of. It appears extremely clear to me. To question this would be to question the very fabric of the Bible. If I can't accept something this obvious, then much of the Bible's teaching would be a complete mystery to me.