If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

LouisBooth · Feb 27, 2002

"I do recognize His role as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "

ahh..divine mafia theory..he can only be one at a time?

Edp..you, as always, got it wrong

Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God because that is a title of authority, he claimed to be a man, because he is, but not JUST a man, And he also claimed that there is Only ONE true God, not that the father is the only true God.

edpobre · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I do recognize His role as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "

ahh..divine mafia theory..he can only be one at a time?

Edp..you, as always, got it wrong Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God because that is a title of authority, he claimed to be a man, because he is, but not JUST a man, And he also claimed that there is Only ONE true God, not that the father is the only true God.

LouisBooth,

How can I be wrong my friend? Regardless of how you define "Son of God", the TRUTH is, Jesus is the SON not the FATHER. Nothing can change that.

Apostle Paul says that for Christians, there is ONLy ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER not the son (1 Cor. 8:6). Since Jesus is the SON, he CANNOT be the ONLY ONE God.

Your statement that "he claimed that there is Only One true God, not that the father is the only true God" is a MISREPRESENTATION to say the least.

In John 17:1 we hear Jesus praying to the FATHER. Then in John 17:3 he says, "....YOU, the ONLY true God..." Who do you think was Jesus addressing as "the ONLY true God?"[/b] Was he addressing himself when he lifted his eyes to heaven and said FATHER....?

Ed

ZoneChaos · Feb 28, 2002

How can I be wrong my friend? Regardless of how you define "Son of God", the TRUTH is, Jesus is the SON not the FATHER. Nothing can change that. [/qyuote]

And, nothing can change that both are God.

Apostle Paul says that for Christians, there is ONLy ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER not the son (1 Cor. 8:6). Since Jesus is the SON, he CANNOT be the ONLY ONE God.

Click to expand...

Ok.. I am reading your comment here, and noticing the "not the son" part.. so let me go look up the verse to verify what you say:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Hmm.. yeah, see, I am just not seeing "not the son" in this verse...

Was he addressing himself when he lifted his eyes to heaven and said FATHER....?

Click to expand...

Why must we deny Jesus being God in or der to say the Fathe ris God? Trinitarians do not deny thar the Fathe ris God so that Jesus can be God. They both are God... Jesus is not the Father, nor the Father, the Son, but both are the same God.

So, no he was not addressing himself, He was addressing the Father, but that in no way measn Jesus is not God., It only measn that the Father is the Only God.. same as the Son and the Spirit, all three are the only God.

LouisBooth · Feb 28, 2002

"Regardless of how you define "Son of God", the TRUTH is, Jesus is the SON not the FATHER. Nothing can change that. "

Correct, but this doesn't mean they aren't one in essance and are both the One God.

*sigh* Ed let me rephrase those statements...Ice talking to water..."water you are truely H20.." this in no way says Ice isn't H20

macro11 · Mar 1, 2002

Louis,

It is obvious you spend a lot of time writing to very many people. I asked, "By what authority do you limit the reference to God in these verses to God the Father"

You responded,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Depends on what passages you are talking about.
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The text in discussion was Philippians 2:5-8. You were responding to drmmjr when you wrote the following:

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yeah so? That is only because Jesus gave it all up before coming to earth..he limited himself to be obendent to show us an example of how to live. See Phil 2:5-8 for details.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The point I am making is you are putting words into Philippians 2:5-8 that are not there. You said the details about Jesus coming to earth were in those verses. I am saying there is no such thought in those verses. There is no statement of Jesus coming or going anywhere except to the cross.

You also said,
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I also think died on a cross is a clear reference to him coming to earth.
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No, it a matter of you reading it into the passage. It doesnt say it. For you, the logic seems clear, but it is only clear when one *starts* with trinitarian presuppositions. When one doesnt start with trinitarian or unitarian presuppositions, one has to rely only on what the words say and not what can be read into them. You seem to spend a lot of time quoting what you want the Bible to say. Maybe I should say misquoting.

You quoted the following as Philippians 2:5-7
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"you attitdue should be the same as christ Jesus:who, being in the very nature (in the very form of) God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped ..but MADE himself nothing."
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

What translation is this?
This is another example of your putting things into the verses that are not there. There is no such phrase as in the very nature God in this text. Morphe has nothing to do with nature, it has to do with shape or outward resemblance. Much in the same way Adam was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27).

You said,
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Macro, I don't make up things in greek, its a language. *sigh*
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

This last so called quote from Philippians is making things up in Greek. I am glad you told me Greek was a language. All along I though it was a salad. As for your *sigh*, why dont you just keep them to yourself. It is very condescending and not the least bit appropriate.

Macro11

macro11 · Mar 1, 2002

jbenjesus

You wrote,
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I have no burden for this...

I've already explained myself.

If that is your argument, and your best one - considering all that I have shared, then I still stand where I do.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Then I guess you stand along side the Pharisees and against Jesus.

Macro11

LouisBooth · Mar 1, 2002

"I asked, "By what authority do you limit the reference to God in these verses to God the Father" "

Okay, okay, then look at the context of the passage. It plainly refers to God the father as the one vs 11 and look at what Christ said all his life. It was about submission to God the Father.

"There is no statement of Jesus coming or going anywhere except to the cross. "

*sigh* which was an actual even detailed in the gospels. If I say I found an orange today, it is implied that I was on earth when I found it or I would have implictily said otherwise. don't be so illogical macro.

"There is no such phrase as in the very nature God in this text. "

*sigh* 3444 morphe {mor-fay'}

perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of
parts); TDNT - 4:742,607; n f

AV - form 3; 3

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance

used in words like morphe...ie change form..from Divine spiritual to fleshly. He was God and that verse plainly states it. He was in the form or appearnace of God. ie the essence of God as trinity docterine says.

Sorry if you think my sighs are inappropraite but it comes from having to deal with the same questions over and over again..You don't think what you're saying hasn't crossed my mind before? You're not original

Thunderchild · Mar 1, 2002

EdPobre - The one true God of Abraham, of Israel, of Isaac is YHVH. YHVH is not the Father.

jbenjesus · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by macro11
jbenjesus

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I have no burden for this...

I've already explained myself.

If that is your argument, and your best one - considering all that I have shared, then I still stand where I do.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Then I guess you stand along side the Pharisees and against Jesus.

Macro11

Macro...

There was no need for you to judge me like that.

I'm not offended, but be careful judging and in what measure you judge. You cannot judge the thoughts and intents of my heart. That is where you have erred.

I confess that Jesus is my Lord and My God.

If you have problem with that, take it up with your master.

jbenjesus · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by Thunderchild
EdPobre - The one true God of Abraham, of Israel, of Isaac is YHVH. YHVH is not the Father.

Are you saying that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the Father? :scratch:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

The One God that created all humanity is the Father. That One God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

macro11 · Mar 2, 2002

jbenjesus

I wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Then I guess you stand along side the Pharisees and against Jesus.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
There was no need for you to judge me like that.

I'm not offended, but be careful judging and in what measure you judge. You cannot judge the thoughts and intents of my heart. That is where you have erred.

I confess that Jesus is my Lord and My God.

If you have problem with that, take it up with your master.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I accept your admonition. You have spoke like a gentleman. You are correct, I cannot judge the thoughts and intents of your heart.

However, I thought I was drawing this as a conclusion from your words. Didnt you say the Pharisees were correct in their accusation Jesus was making Himself equal to God (John 5) and God Himself (John 10)? Jesus specifically countered their accusations in both places. Yet, you continue to side with their statements against Jesus. I am sure I didnt misunderstand your position. You have just said Jesus is your Lord and your God.

The only scriptures ever used to prove Jesus claimed to be God are based on the interpretations of Jesus words by the religious leaders. Why would anyone base their faith on the statements or actions of people whose only intention was to kill Jesus? Their intent to kill Jesus was based on their own desire to maintain their positions of authority and power (John 11:47-53).

If you have felt some condemnation from my statement, I dont believe it was from me. Maybe you should take you own very sage advice and take it up with your master.

Macro11

macro11 · Mar 2, 2002

Louis

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"There is no such phrase as in the very nature God in this text. "

*sigh* 3444 morphe {mor-fay'}

perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); TDNT - 4:742,607; n f

AV - form 3; 3

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance

used in words like morphe...ie change form..from Divine spiritual to fleshly. He was God and that verse plainly states it. He was in the form or appearnace of God. ie the essence of God as trinity docterine says.

Sorry if you think my sighs are inappropraite but it comes from having to deal with the same questions over and over again..You don't think what you're saying hasn't crossed my mind before? You're not original
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Your little piece of research does show the words, in the very nature God, are not in the original. As I wrote to you, morphe describes the appearance of Jesus and not His nature.

The verse does not plainly say Jesus is God. It says Jesus was in the form or appearance of God, just as Adam was in the image of God in Genesis 1:27. Being in the form or appearance of God does not prove Jesus is God. It simply puts Jesus and Adam on a par as Paul wrote in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15.

About your *sigh*. Who is forcing you to deal with people who raise the same questions over and over again? Are you being abused by someone and forced to be on this list? Is someone making you write on this list? As Truman (I believe) said, If you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I have no illusions about my thoughts being original. My view of the scriptures has been around since the days of the apostles. Your view of the scriptures has been around equally as long. There is nothing new under the sun. The point is, you are writing as if you feel you have a superior intellect and are you just tired of those who arent intelligent enough to agree with you. You may very well have a superior intellect, but your sighs speak more of egotism than humility. If God has truly called you to teach correct doctrine on this list, make sure your words are about the doctrine and not about you. Leave the sighs out.

Macro11

macro11 · Mar 2, 2002

ZoneChaos

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Now, I can give you John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

This verse shows Jesus as being God. however, that verse alone is not the entire picture, becasue you must read elsewhere to find out who or what John was referring to when he said "the Word".

As you study John, and then other parts of the NT, then other parts of the OT, you get he whole picture that "the Word" in this verse is Jesus, Christ, the Son of God, come in the flesh, both man and God in duality and in fullness.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I would like to ask a few questions. What is there, exactly, in John 1:1-13 which requires logos to be a person?

I dont believe John 1:1c describe logos as being the person of God, I believe it describes logos having the qualities of God. When I get to the Kingdom of God, I will have the qualities holiness, purity, love, and other qualities of God. That will not make me God.

There is a list of discussions among Greek scholars called B-Greek (as in Bible). Their archives are at the following address:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html
One of the options there is to view letters month by month. Select that option and find and select February 2000. If you search for John 1:1, you will find quite an exchange about what the word, logos, means. Take some time to read through this exchange. You will learn some interesting things or you will be reminded of what you already know.

The summary might be there are many ways to translate the meaning of logos. That translation doesnt require understanding logos as a person. Look for a letter from Pete Phillips dated Wed Feb 16 2000 - 03:36:12 EST. Pete points to a number of authorities who suggest the best word to translate logos is plan. I have felt plan is the best way to translate logos for many years. I believe reading plan in place of word in John 1:1-14 communicates quite well. It speaks of the plan of God for the salvation of mankind being the starting point of creation. I believe Jesus was the plan made flesh in the same way my wife and I planned to have children and those plans became flesh in our daughters birth.

Give it some thought.

Macro11

jbenjesus · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by macro11
jbenjesus

I wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Then I guess you stand along side the Pharisees and against Jesus.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
There was no need for you to judge me like that.

I'm not offended, but be careful judging and in what measure you judge. You cannot judge the thoughts and intents of my heart. That is where you have erred.

I confess that Jesus is my Lord and My God.

If you have problem with that, take it up with your master.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I accept your admonition. You have spoke like a gentleman. You are correct, I cannot judge the thoughts and intents of your heart.

However, I thought I was drawing this as a conclusion from your words. Didnt you say the Pharisees were correct in their accusation Jesus was making Himself equal to God (John 5) and God Himself (John 10)? Jesus specifically countered their accusations in both places. Yet, you continue to side with their statements against Jesus. I am sure I didnt misunderstand your position. You have just said Jesus is your Lord and your God.

The only scriptures ever used to prove Jesus claimed to be God are based on the interpretations of Jesus words by the religious leaders. Why would anyone base their faith on the statements or actions of people whose only intention was to kill Jesus? Their intent to kill Jesus was based on their own desire to maintain their positions of authority and power (John 11:47-53).

If you have felt some condemnation from my statement, I dont believe it was from me. Maybe you should take you own very sage advice and take it up with your master.

Macro11

Spare me and everyone else your "holier than thouness" and "I know it better than anyone else hereness".

Your lack of class and lack of humility, here in this thread, is why no one else is listening to you and now have issues with at least 3 if not more people in this thread.

You obviously jumped into this thread long after it began, and did not bother to read carefully and slowly all of the posts. If you had, you would have realized that by belief is not based solely upon what the Pharisees said of Jesus. Your loss... not mine.

You drew your conclusions based on propably one or two of my posts and not all of them. Again, there is where you erred. :o

If you do not have the time to take into consideration everything that I have said, then I have no time nor care in defending the "straw-man" that you have built up that doesn't even exist. :wave:

Have a good day, sir, and see you around the christian forums. I'm sure.

ZoneChaos · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by macro11
ZoneChaos

You wrote,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Now, I can give you John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

This verse shows Jesus as being God. however, that verse alone is not the entire picture, becasue you must read elsewhere to find out who or what John was referring to when he said "the Word".

As you study John, and then other parts of the NT, then other parts of the OT, you get he whole picture that "the Word" in this verse is Jesus, Christ, the Son of God, come in the flesh, both man and God in duality and in fullness.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I would like to ask a few questions. What is there, exactly, in John 1:1-13 which requires logos to be a person?

I dont believe John 1:1c describe logos as being the person of God, I believe it describes logos having the qualities of God. When I get to the Kingdom of God, I will have the qualities holiness, purity, love, and other qualities of God. That will not make me God.

There is a list of discussions among Greek scholars called B-Greek (as in Bible). Their archives are at the following address:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html
One of the options there is to view letters month by month. Select that option and find and select February 2000. If you search for John 1:1, you will find quite an exchange about what the word, logos, means. Take some time to read through this exchange. You will learn some interesting things or you will be reminded of what you already know.

The summary might be there are many ways to translate the meaning of logos. That translation doesnt require understanding logos as a person. Look for a letter from Pete Phillips dated Wed Feb 16 2000 - 03:36:12 EST. Pete points to a number of authorities who suggest the best word to translate logos is plan. I have felt plan is the best way to translate logos for many years. I believe reading plan in place of word in John 1:1-14 communicates quite well. It speaks of the plan of God for the salvation of mankind being the starting point of creation. I believe Jesus was the plan made flesh in the same way my wife and I planned to have children and those plans became flesh in our daughters birth.

Give it some thought.

Macro11

Curious, why stop at verse 13?

edpobre · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by ZoneChaos

Ok.. I am reading your comment here, and noticing the "not the son" part.. so let me go look up the verse to verify what you say:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Hmm.. yeah, see, I am just not seeing "not the son" in this verse...

Apostle Paul says the ONLY ONE God of Christians is the FATHER. You and I know that Jesus Christ is the SON. The ONLY ONE God is the FATHER - NOT the SON. Since Jesus is the SON, not the FATHER, then Jesus is NOT the ONLY ONE God of Christians.

Why must we deny Jesus being God in or der to say the Fathe ris God? Trinitarians do not deny thar the Fathe ris God so that Jesus can be God. They both are God... Jesus is not the Father, nor the Father, the Son, but both are the same God.

There is no need to deny Jesus being God because Jesus is NEVER God in the first place. There is actually nothing to deny because Jesus is NEVER God in the first place.

Although Trinitarians do not deny that the Father is God, their belief that Jesus is God is FALSE. The FATHER and the SON cannot be both the same God because Jesus says that the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

So, no he was not addressing himself, He was addressing the Father, but that in no way measn Jesus is not God., It only measn that the Father is the Only God.. same as the Son and the Spirit, all three are the only God.

You say the Father is the ONLY God...same as the Son and the Spirit. What kind of statement is this? Are you saying that the Father is COMPOSED of the son and the spirit?

Ed

edpobre · Mar 2, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Regardless of how you define "Son of God", the TRUTH is, Jesus is the SON not the FATHER. Nothing can change that. "

Correct, but this doesn't mean they aren't one in essance and are both the One God.

*sigh* Ed let me rephrase those statements...Ice talking to water..."water you are truely H20.." this in no way says Ice isn't H20

LouisBooth,

You are throwing John 8:40 and John 17:3 out of the window. Jesus says he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

Jesus and the Father are NOT of the SAME essence.

One (the Father) is SPIRIT (God) and the other (the son) is flesh and bones (man).

Ed

GreenEyedLady · Mar 3, 2002

[GLOW=firebrick]*SLAPS EVERYONE who has posted on this* [/GLOW] WAKE UP!!!

I am very ashamed that you guys call yourselves hristians the way you talk to each other...it is very discusting... :sick:

..babbling over what and who and why GOD and Jesus is. This has GOT to be the most fruitless debate I have read on this site yet! BLAH BLAH BLAH.....IM right....NO I AM>>>>NO MEEEE!!!! Well look here well look there......YOUR going to hell...onh no...YOUR going to hell.....ahhhhhhhhhhh :scratch:

Let me ask you ALL this......What does the bible say about godliness??? hhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm...lets seeeee here.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

WITHOUT CONTRAVERSY......absorb that first....then is says...GOD IS A MYSTERY.... Why are you poeple debateing about this when the bible clearly states its a mystery??

Why are you claiming that it is WRONG to believe one way or the other. When did GOD grant you guys to give a final authority over his diety???

*GEL is NOT sorry for the slaps...they were SOOOOOO needed*

GEL

hey.....How in the world do I get the cool fonts to go on my signature? I am baffled!
:help:

edpobre · Mar 3, 2002

Originally posted by GreenEyedLady
[GLOW=firebrick]*SLAPS EVERYONE who has posted on this* [/GLOW] WAKE UP!!!

I am very ashamed that you guys call yourselves hristians the way you talk to each other...it is very discusting... ..babbling over what and who and why GOD and Jesus is. This has GOT to be the most fruitless debate I have read on this site yet! BLAH BLAH BLAH.....IM right....NO I AM>>>>NO MEEEE!!!! Well look here well look there......YOUR going to hell...onh no...YOUR going to hell.....ahhhhhhhhhhh
Let me ask you ALL this......What does the bible say about godliness??? hhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm...lets seeeee here.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

WITHOUT CONTRAVERSY......absorb that first....then is says...GOD IS A MYSTERY.... Why are you poeple debateing about this when the bible clearly states its a mystery?? Why are you claiming that it is WRONG to believe one way or the other. When did GOD grant you guys to give a final authority over his diety???

*GEL is NOT sorry for the slaps...they were SOOOOOO needed*

GEL

hey.....How in the world do I get the cool fonts to go on my signature? I am baffled!

GreenEyedLady,

Who taught you that the identity of God is a mystery? If everyone obeys the COMMAND of God to LISTEN to His son (Matt. 17:5) and BELIEVE what Jesus says, everyone would know that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Ed

GreenEyedLady · Mar 3, 2002

Well ED...lets see here...uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh oh I know...I pulled that verse out of my trashcan...OH I know...I made it up...oh no really I found it in the woods while being attacked by Large senile Racoons waiting for the day to break.
ED.....How can YOU say you have the mystery of godliness all figured out?? How can anyone say they have GOD all figured out???
I will tell you who taught me that HE is a mystery.....HE DID!!!! His word CLEARLY STATES that GOD and CHRIST are a mystery.....Stop trying to play inspector gadget and LOOK at what his word says!

Let me ask you this....Did God say.....hey man...im a mystery but i want you to spent the rest of your life trying to figure me out?
NO
Did God say hey....I really didn't mean without contraverys...I really ment....uuuuuummmmm......without the word..??
NO
Did God mean that his diety was really a great mystery or just a small little puzzle for the "babes" to figure out?? NOOOOOOOOO

So....Check out these verses....and pay attention to what HE is saying....

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

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