Fasting - source of pride?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 11, 2014

Someone mentioned to me a few months ago that to practice either too lenient or too strict a fast, could lead to the sin of pride.

I've thought about that since that time.

It's easy to see (I think) how too strict a fast can lead to pride, if one is successful, and is tempted to think highly of themselves for what they've accomplished. If there are more aspects to it than that, I'd be interested as well.

And the idea of too lenient a fast leading to pride is more elusive. I think I surely don't understand that very well. I read something today that I have wondered if it is connected, but I wanted to ask for general opinions here so that I don't totally lead into answers, or preclude others.

Any comments, especially on how too lenient a fast can be a source of pride or leading to pride would be appreciated.

Thanks very much.

gzt · Jul 11, 2014

Well, yes, it's one reason why, prior to Lent, we have the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee: so we are reminded of how fasting can go wrong and what God really wants from us when we fast. As for too lenient of a fast, I don't have anything to say to that one, though fasting is intended to humble us, so not fasting will not have that effect.

Dorothea · Jul 11, 2014

Sure, one could be prideful in fasting. One could be prideful in just about anything, really. We are commanded by Christ to fast. On what level, depends on our health and what we are able to do, and that is decided by our SF.

Mary of Bethany · Jul 11, 2014

Fasting too little could be from willfulness, obeying ourselves instead of our spiritual father, so that would also be a form of pride.

Mary

~Anastasia~ · Jul 11, 2014

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the replies.

Mary, what you said about being prideful in putting self first was the main thing I had really been able to think of.

Dorothea, my priest indeed knows my situation and has made particular recommendations. As with all his recommendations, I have not necessarily understood at first, but upon further reflection, I'm actually amazed at his insight and the wisdom he shows.

And gzt, your answer is actually pretty close to what I read that made me think about this.

What I read was about the importance of struggle. Most especially about sin and repentance, but I started thinking it might apply here.

It really struck me, what I read. It said that someone might be a great sinner, and struggle against their sin. And that God appreciates that effort. While another person might just not have strong tendencies to anything, so they don't sin nearly as much. Yet because of that, they accept themselves as they are, and don't struggle to overcome the little sin that is there.

In the end, the one who didn't bother to struggle is like the unprofitable servant, they said, while I guess the implication is that the one who sinned more, yet struggled to overcome, was more commendable.

I started thinking of that as applies to a lenient fast - if one doesn't desire to struggle and simply goes without fasting, or with a more lenient one?

I'm interested in principle, not necessarily in practice. I already speak to Fr. M. about fasting.

On second thought, perhaps it could apply to prayers as well. Perhaps one who is very slothful in prayer, or easily distracted, but struggles to improve ... Might be more commendable than one who just naturally prays a lot yet accepts any shortcomings in their prayer life because they are "already good enough". I think that example illustrates pride much better in this kind of disciplinary scenario than I can easily imagine fasting to do.

Thanks for letting me think this out. Any comments or corrections would be welcomed.

gurneyhalleck1 · Jul 11, 2014

I don't think JUST fasting can lead to pride. In fact, legalism is always a temptation to us as human beings on so many levels! We can easily say, "look at Judy and Mike! They've missed Divine Liturgy again! ugh! They're not as holy as we are!" or we can get prideful because we go to Confession more than so and so.....or we can be prideful because we pray constantly thinking we're the ultimate prayer masters. If we're not properly disposed, we can get into the "I'm holier than everyone else" mindset very easily. As a Catholic I've done it, trust me. I hate what I used to be. I really do honestly pray that "chief of sinners" part of the liturgy prayer and REALLY MEAN IT. I do think I'm the least holy guy in the entire congregation on Sunday. I look around at just about everyone and would bet cash money they are holier than me. I think Orthodoxy has helped me to realize just how far I have to go. But in that process of revealing how far I have yet to travel, God is giving me a blessing of humility. Fasting can lead to conceit, but so can so many things if we take our eyes off the ball! :crosseo:

127.0.0.1 · Jul 11, 2014

Lots of things can lead to pride... fasting being only one of them. Perchance just about anything one does in one's struggle to Orthodoxy could become a source of pride if not done properly, fasting, praying, or regular attendance...etc.

Just my opinion but I think Pride is probably the worst sin of all. Not many sins can really cut you off from Communion with God or even just other people, like pride can.

Dorothea · Jul 12, 2014

Kylissa said:
Thanks everyone. I appreciate the replies.

Mary, what you said about being prideful in putting self first was the main thing I had really been able to think of.

Dorothea, my priest indeed knows my situation and has made particular recommendations. As with all his recommendations, I have not necessarily understood at first, but upon further reflection, I'm actually amazed at his insight and the wisdom he shows.

And gzt, your answer is actually pretty close to what I read that made me think about this.

What I read was about the importance of struggle. Most especially about sin and repentance, but I started thinking it might apply here.

It really struck me, what I read. It said that someone might be a great sinner, and struggle against their sin. And that God appreciates that effort. While another person might just not have strong tendencies to anything, so they don't sin nearly as much. Yet because of that, they accept themselves as they are, and don't struggle to overcome the little sin that is there.

In the end, the one who didn't bother to struggle is like the unprofitable servant, they said, while I guess the implication is that the one who sinned more, yet struggled to overcome, was more commendable.

I started thinking of that as applies to a lenient fast - if one doesn't desire to struggle and simply goes without fasting, or with a more lenient one?

I'm interested in principle, not necessarily in practice. I already speak to Fr. M. about fasting.

On second thought, perhaps it could apply to prayers as well. Perhaps one who is very slothful in prayer, or easily distracted, but struggles to improve ... Might be more commendable than one who just naturally prays a lot yet accepts any shortcomings in their prayer life because they are "already good enough". I think that example illustrates pride much better in this kind of disciplinary scenario than I can easily imagine fasting to do.

Thanks for letting me think this out. Any comments or corrections would be welcomed.

That's very interesting. Most sins come from pride. Have you ever read the book God's Path to Sanity? I have the original one before it was edited and republished. It's really good. It talks about the three sins that all of us seem to struggle with: Pride, Self Love, and Vain Glory. It's a good read and really helped me to see things I hadn't before. You might like to read it. It's not a very long book to read.

ArmyMatt · Jul 12, 2014

I started thinking of that as applies to a lenient fast - if one doesn't desire to struggle and simply goes without fasting, or with a more lenient one?

I would say that the God gives us fasting because He knows (for the most part) we need it to some degree or another. so to impose a fast on oneself that is slack, is basically saying that you know more than God.

Evangelos · Jul 13, 2014

I have known people who make it clear just how little they are planning to eat to everyone and they turn it into a david copperfield experience nearly complete with going to the bathroom in mason jars.

No one cares if you are fasting or if you are not. Keep it between you and Christ.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jul 14, 2014

Fasting is a TOOL. The minute it becomes something else, it is no longer a TOOL...

~Anastasia~ · Jul 14, 2014

Thanks everyone.

As I said, this isn't about any personal fasting or lack thereof. I wanted to explore the idea of pride and fasting, and especially to understand why I was told that too lax a fasting rule can involve pride. I think it was said "lead to pride" but I can't remember for sure now.

What seems to be said here is more that it can be a symptom of pride that already exists in a person.

But no worries, I just wanted to talk about ideas, not get advice. It's not about me personally (or anyone personally) at all.

Thanks, everyone.

Evangelos · Jul 15, 2014

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Fasting is a TOOL. The minute it becomes something else, it is no longer a TOOL...

Correction, the minute it stops being a tool, you become a TOOL.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 15, 2014

ArmyMatt said:
I would say that the God gives us fasting because He knows (for the most part) we need it to some degree or another. so to impose a fast on oneself that is slack, is basically saying that you know more than God.

Thanks, Matt.

That makes sense.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 15, 2014

Dorothea said:
That's very interesting. Most sins come from pride. Have you ever read the book God's Path to Sanity? I have the original one before it was edited and republished. It's really good. It talks about the three sins that all of us seem to struggle with: Pride, Self Love, and Vain Glory. It's a good read and really helped me to see things I hadn't before. You might like to read it. It's not a very long book to read.

Thank you, Dorothea. I would be interested, and I'll add that one to my list.

The three sins seem kind of related. Maybe what I've called "pride" in the past really isn't. But I know what I struggle with the most, and it has to do with mySELF. Sigh ...

Some denomination of pride, no matter how you slice it I think.

Hmmmm ...... which makes me think. Part of the purpose of fasting is to help with humility, right?

And if too strict or too lenient a fast can lead to pride (the opposite of humility) ... then it must be essential to get "the right fast" in order for it to have the effect it should have?

I need to think about this some more. But it goes in well with what Fr. M. suggested to me, which I hesitate to discuss here.

But it seems God sometimes humbles us or gives us things to deal with in certain cases for the sake of increasing humility in us, maybe?

I definitely want to look for that book, thank you.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 15, 2014

127.0.0.1 said:
Lots of things can lead to pride... fasting being only one of them. Perchance just about anything one does in one's struggle to Orthodoxy could become a source of pride if not done properly, fasting, praying, or regular attendance...etc.

Just my opinion but I think Pride is probably the worst sin of all. Not many sins can really cut you off from Communion with God or even just other people, like pride can.

I agree that I think pride is the worst sin. That was something that was made plain to my heart at one time.

It's also kind of insidious - at least I think so - as you said, it can creep in through so many sources.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 15, 2014

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I don't think JUST fasting can lead to pride. In fact, legalism is always a temptation to us as human beings on so many levels! We can easily say, "look at Judy and Mike! They've missed Divine Liturgy again! ugh! They're not as holy as we are!" or we can get prideful because we go to Confession more than so and so.....or we can be prideful because we pray constantly thinking we're the ultimate prayer masters. If we're not properly disposed, we can get into the "I'm holier than everyone else" mindset very easily. As a Catholic I've done it, trust me. I hate what I used to be. I really do honestly pray that "chief of sinners" part of the liturgy prayer and REALLY MEAN IT. I do think I'm the least holy guy in the entire congregation on Sunday. I look around at just about everyone and would bet cash money they are holier than me. I think Orthodoxy has helped me to realize just how far I have to go. But in that process of revealing how far I have yet to travel, God is giving me a blessing of humility. Fasting can lead to conceit, but so can so many things if we take our eyes off the ball!

"if we are not properly disposed" ... that is helpful, I think. I can appreciate what you are saying here. I have tried to cultivate the right mindset, and it does seem to help.

I'm not sure if I posted here or not - I think I was embarrassed to. But when I first started attending services regularly - it was awful! It was like someone whispering in my ear prideful thoughts against everyone I saw! Not with any grounds either just - a terrible struggle just to shut it out and ignore it. I found it very hard to deal with for a few weeks.

It has gotten better. It disappears sometimes. But takes its opportunity to come back. I do think that seeing myself in the right light helps to keep those kinds of temptations to thought at bay, somewhat.

Being that this thread started out about fasting, that advice to "keep your eyes on your own plate" seems appropriate too. I try to keep my mind out of anyone else's business and on myself. It helps.

Thank you for the post.

Fasting - source of pride?

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