Question for rapturists re: 1Thess. 5

It's very easy actually.  It says whether we are awake or asleep.  Paul often refers to those who sleep in Christ (meaning Christians who have died).  Where as in the previous verses, Paul is clearly referring to living people who are asleep when the thief comes (i.e. non-Christians).

I'm not a pre-trib rapturists though, I'm pre-wrath (Check rollinTHUNDER's pre-trib thread, and my end times chronology thread for more details).

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/32372.html

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/34407.html

I agree with Rize.  I'm not pre-trib either but when Paul refers to those asleep, he means those who have passed away.  It is temporary, so he avoids using the word dead.

Thanks JS

But don't be discouraged LastDazed!  The pre-trib rapture is not scriptural, thus it's not difficult to refute once you learn a few things and get a little practice!

This passage is clear, thoseÊwho are "Sober" and "wake",Êescape wrath, but it also says that those who "sleep" and are "Drunk" shall live together with Jesus forever.

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as long as you are born again, you are going up in the rapture. Whether you are a good Christian or a half-past-six one, you are going up. that simply is the grace of God, your qualification has nothing to do with your performance. It is the blood and nothing but the blood.

but Paul reminds us that we are children of the light and so should behave that way, as opposed to children of the darkness.

That's the beauty of God's grace. He, thru the Word, tells us who we already are in Christ, so that we can live up to who we are. The world tell us who we are in our flesh, so that we can strive up to God's standard.

Once you understnd God's grace, you understnd pre-trib.

Andrew, go read the other threads you just posted in...

Originally posted by Andrew
...Once you understnd God's grace, you understnd pre-trib...

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In your view, how does God's grace require that the rapture be before the tribulation? Won't we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) be in his grace?

Especially in light of all those verses I posted.

It means exactly what I said it says.

When Paul talks about those who sleep, he may be talking about either those who are not awake (not Christians) or those Christians who have died as Christians (those who sleep in Christ).

Exactly what is meant is determined by context as I've demonstrated. 

If you go back to chapter 4 you'll see the unquivocal rapture passage which talks about how the dead in christ rise as well as those who are still alive.  This is those who are awake or asleep (in the verse 10 context).

In fact, what this does is ties chapters 4 and 5 together as a single teaching and helps disprove the pre-trib position (by showing, as 2 Thess 2 does) that the rapture occurs just before the Day of the Lord (which according to Jesus occurs after the sign in the sun moon and stars which is after the persecution of the Anti-Christ).

LastDazed, are you trying to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't talk about any rapture?

Good luck

If sleep consistently means "not ready for Christ's return", or "being a sinner" throughout the entire thing, then this passage teaches that sinners will go to heaven regardless of whether or not they are "awake" or "asleep".

Is that what you think it means?  Paul is teaching about the coming of the Lord (the rapture) and he clearly makes a distinction between Christian brothers who won't be surprised by the thief (Jesus, 1 Thess 5:4) and those who belong to the darkness and will be asleep when the thief comes.  He polishes off the teaching by saying that whether we are "awake" or "asleep", we will live together with him.  This is a reference to 1 Thess 4:14.  Now 1 Thess 4:15, 17 clearly identifies those who sleep in Christ as those who are dead in Christ (for those who are awake won't precede those who are asleep, and the dead shall rise first).

What more could you ask for?  Paul clearly uses asleep to refer to dead Christians.  1 Thess 5:4-9 clearly reidentifies people who are asleep as those who are sleeping through the thief's coming.  However, when he talks of those who will live with Jesus (verse 5:10) he is clearly reverting to the original reference to dead Christians which, as I said before, cinches up the entire teaching on the coming of Jesus which began in verse 4:13 and ended in 5:11.

If verse 10 means the same thing as the previous verses, then what do you believe it is saying?  That Christians who don't know when the rapture will occur are the ones who are in darkness?  And that all Christians, regardless of whether or not they are aware of when the rapture will occur will be raptured?

If that's what it means, then ... so what?

That changes nothing for me because I believe that anyway.  Of course anyone who is a real Christian will be raptured regardless of when they think the rapture will occur.  And obviously, as Paul clarifies in verse 4:17, the dead and living in Christ will be raptured.  So what are you trying to prove here?

I'm really confused.

How do you interpret this verse?  Certainly you don't think that the unbelieving will "live together with him" (verse 5:10).

Today at 08:40 PM LastDazed said this in Post #13
I've got news for ya Rize, ONLY sinners get saved, therefore, ONLY sinners get to go to heaven.

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Are you a universalist?  Don't worry, I won't bite

Today at 08:40 PM LastDazed said this in Post #13
Exactly! Paul is exhorting his Christian brothers who are of the "Day", to not "sleep" like the non christians who are of the Night, because if they do, the DOTL will overtake them like a theif as well, and they will suffer.

However, Paul is clear that even if they (Christians) do sleep like the non Christians, and the DOTL does indeed overtake them like a theif, it does not jeopardize their salvation.

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Maybe.  Like I said, I believe that this is an obvious teaching, so it isn't important for me to take it from this passage.  Anyone who thinks that not knowing when the rapture will occur puts you in danger of missing it, needs to ask themselves where they got such a silly idea.

Even so, paul said that "we are not of the darkness" (i.e. not asleep) then later says "whether we wake or sleep", so I'm still holding that he means whether we are dead or alive.

Today at 08:40 PM LastDazed said this in Post #13
Just out of curiosity, Since Paul does not teach a "simultainous" rizing of the living and dead here, how long after the dead are raised do you believe the living are raptured?

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I think that it's meant to be a basically simultaneous event since the dead rise first and we rise and meet them in the air.  Unless they're going to hand around in the air for a while, which seems unlikely.  The point in saying that the dead will rise first (aside from it being explicitly true) is that the dead will be resurrected.  Christians shouldn't fear death for any reason.

Today at 08:40 PM LastDazed said this in Post #13
"Therefore let us not Physically die(sleep), as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who physically die(sleep), physically die(sleep) at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

Is Paul Clearly speaking of dead Christians when he uses "Sleep" here?

If you say so.............. but I fail to see the "Clarity" in your stated interpratation.

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Paul redefines sleep as "not paying attention" for those verses.  It has to revert back to it's standard meaning (Paul's standard meaning anyway) at some point.  I'm merely suggesting that it reverts here.  Paul clearly says that you brothers are not in darkness.  You are all sons of light.  We do not belong to darkness.

Then in verse 10 he says whether we wake or sleep.  He already clarified that you brothers and we are not in darkness (not asleep), thus when he says "whether we wake or sleep" in verse 10, he refers to those who are dead in Christ and alive in Christ, not those who are in darkness (which I emphatically believe refers to non-Christians).

Last time I checked we were ALL sinners. So in essence sinners are the ones who get to go to heaven. Let's not kid ourselves here, we sin. And sin. And sin. Now this is NOT justification for sin as many deviated doctrines teach, but the fact remains that we sin. The ones who DON'T get to go to heaven are people who walk in the darkness (1 John 1:6) like those teaching that sinning is ok and that while the body sins, the spirit doesn't (demonic doctrines).

(1 John 1:8) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The fact is that I'm still a sinner, but boy do I fight it and God has erradicated some devilish garbage outta me. My sins of today are nothing compared to my sins of the past, but sins nevertheless.

Now I don't think God will take his people prior to the moment of tribulation. I don't remember God telling their children to retreat because it was going to get ugly, but has always give them strenght, courage and supernatural help to overcome anything. I would like to see God's light shine on me on those last days, and while those will be terrible days to endure, I can't imagine any other time I wish I can live in. As for what happens after the tribulation, whatever God wants is good to me!

I agree that sleep is sleep. Otherwise the verse doesn't make any sense. Now, I would love for someone to post the verse in greek. If the greek word for sleep remains the same through the verse, there will be no doubt that were talking sleep. Otherwise we will have to check the meaning if a different one is used in conjunction.

God bless you all and peace,
028

The passage posted is not about the rapture; it is a clear warning to christians to stay alert in Christ and not fall alseep because of this world: the word 'sleep" is used in other passages:

Mark13:36
Luke22:45,46
1Cor11:30
1Cor15:18
1Thess4:13
2Peter3:4

It is a state of ones mind: notice that these passages warn against Christians falling into temptation. When we are numbed against Christ because of sorrow, distraction, and the cares of this life, we are spiritually "asleep".

Wildfire

Yesterday at 01:54 PM luigi028 said this in Post #15

Last time I checked we were ALL sinners. So in essence sinners are the ones who get to go to heaven. Let's not kid ourselves here, we sin. And sin. And sin. Now this is NOT justification for sin as many deviated doctrines teach, but the fact remains that we sin. The ones who DON'T get to go to heaven are people who walk in the darkness (1 John 1:6) like those teaching that sinning is ok and that while the body sins, the spirit doesn't (demonic doctrines).

(1 John 1:8) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The fact is that I'm still a sinner, but boy do I fight it and God has erradicated some devilish garbage outta me. My sins of today are nothing compared to my sins of the past, but sins nevertheless.

Now I don't think God will take his people prior to the moment of tribulation. I don't remember God telling their children to retreat because it was going to get ugly, but has always give them strenght, courage and supernatural help to overcome anything. I would like to see God's light shine on me on those last days, and while those will be terrible days to endure, I can't imagine any other time I wish I can live in. As for what happens after the tribulation, whatever God wants is good to me!

I agree that sleep is sleep. Otherwise the verse doesn't make any sense. Now, I would love for someone to post the verse in greek. If the greek word for sleep remains the same through the verse, there will be no doubt that were talking sleep. Otherwise we will have to check the meaning if a different one is used in conjunction.

God bless you all and peace,
028

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The Greek word does remain the same throughout (and it does mean sleep).

But Paul defines "those who sleep" as those who aren't "awake" (to the truth).  And at other times, those who "sleep in Christ", or simple believers who "are asleep" as those who have died (in Christ).

We see Jesus doing the same thing because when he resurrected the dead, he often said that the dead were merely sleeping.

Wildfire, I must emphatically disagree with you. 

Clearly, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is talking about the rapture (or the resurrection).

Then in chapter 5 (remember the original writings did not have chapter numbers), Paul begins as if he is answering a specific question.  Di the Thessalonians write a letter to him with a question to which he is now responding?  Or is he answering a natural question that arises when one talks about the resurrection?  Or both?

Either way, the unspoken question is clearly, "when will this occur?" (the question is, does "this" refer to the resurrection/rapture, the day of the Lord or both?  I believe that 2 Thess 2:1-2 clearly demonstrates that Paul is referring to both here).

So the answer to the question, "when will the "gathering" (2 Thess 2:1-2) and the coming of the Lord (the day of the Lord 2 Thess 2:1-2) occur" is that it will come like a thief in the night. 

Thus, the message that Paul began in 1 Thess 4:13 ends in 1 Thess 5:11 and the material at the opening of chapter 5 most certainly does refer to the rapture.