Hell

DrBubbaLove said:

LLoJ is there a way to reduce the size of the pics that come in every single post you make? - it tends to fill-up each page you contribute to and does not really add to your otherwise insightful comments.

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Do you mean the Devil picture?
It does not show as filling up the page for me.
But I will remove it.......


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He is tiny compared to the size of the other three pics. On my screen those three make your post almost seven times bigger than the text you just posted.

Thanks u2 I did not realize I could toggle display of those "signature" images on/off in my profile section (under view)

DrBubbaLove said:

He is tiny compared to the size of the other three pics. On my screen those three make your post almost seven times bigger than the text you just posted.

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Ahhhh.
Can you provide the links to them? thks

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Ahhhh.
Can you provide the links to them? thks

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The three large images in your signature, "He will crush your head," a scroll and sunlight shining through a window.

Der Alter said:

The three large images in your signature, "He will crush your head," a scroll and sunlight shining through a window.

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Didn't know that is what he was referring to....
I have show siggies turned off so I can't see mine or others....let me look at it.....


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gradyll said:

but when fire destroys the chaff still exists, so technically it's not annihilated or non existent. by your definition of destroyed.

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No, after the chaff is destroyed by fire it does not continue to exist. It has been consumed by fire.

gradyll said:

my car is destroyed at the junkyard (pick and pull) but it still exists.

just in pieces

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My hot dog fell off the stick and was consumed by the fire. Care to eat it?
You can't because it was burnt to ash.

Timothew said:

My hot dog fell off the stick and was consumed by the fire. Care to eat it?
You can't because it was burnt to ash.

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My father died. Care to explain to everyone how he no longer exists???

gradyll said:

the exact hebrew there was regarding a simile or poem. Poetry comes in literal and not literal forms, and parables so to, come in literal and not literal forms: Conclusion: So you are wrong in several ways here and are allegorizing a text not intended to be allegorical.

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H4912 משׁל mâshâl maw-shawl'
•1 masc. dec. 4a.—I. similitude, parable.—II. sentiment, sententious saying, maxim.—III. proverb.
—IV. by-word ; subject of a taunting proverb. משׁל.—I. to utter a comparison or similitude,
2 Joel 2. 17.—II. to use a proverb. Part.* similitudes, poets, Nu. 21. 27. Niph. to be or become like, similar, use a parable, Eze. 21.5. Hiph. to compare, Is. 46. 5. Hithp. to become like, similar, Job 30. 19. masc. something like, similar, Job 41. 25. masc. taunt, by-word, Job 17. 6.
Sources:THE ANALYTICAL Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon: CONSISTING OF AN ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT OF EVERY WORD AND INFLECTION CONTAINED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, PRECISELY AS THEY OCCUR IN THE SACRED TEXT, BY B. DAVIDSON, Page DXXII

to propose a riddle, problem. fem. dec. 10.—I. riddle, enigma.—II. proverb, parable ; hence, a sublime, spiritual discourse,
comp. Ps. 49. 5 ; 78. 2. Ch. fem. dec. 8a, riddle, enigma, Da. 5. 12.
THE ANALYTICAL Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon: CONSISTING OF AN ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT OF EVERY WORD AND INFLECTION CONTAINED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, PRECISELY AS THEY OCCUR IN THE SACRED TEXT, BY B. DAVIDSON, Page CCXLIX

Then what does Job literally say?
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

The answer is, these were God's doings, and not the adversary's. "Thou movest ME against him to destroy him without cause " Job 2:3

And the narrator, in concluding the book, says,
"Then came there unto him all his brethren . . . and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" Job 42:11

Can a satan/devil/serpent talk and be an adversary like the donkey?

Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, tha

Was the adversary of Balaam an angel of God or an angel of a satan?

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

What does Newton say?
Newton denied the orthodox doctrine of the immortality of the soul and rejected the existence of the demonic hordes and the Archfiend himself...against the tradition and the passionate rhetoric of orthodoxy.
James E. Force, “The God of Abraham and Isaac (Newton),”

In his “Language of the Prophets,” which dates from the latter half of the first decade of the eighteenth century, Newton glosses the relevant text from Revelation 12 in the following way:

And there appeared another wonder in heaven, & behold a great red Dragon [the Roman heathen Empire] having seven heads & ten horns & seven crowns upon his heads. This Dragon being the old serpent called the Devil & Satan, is that Devil who hath his seat in Pergamus, that is the Greek empire in the reign of the last horn of Daniel’s He Goat.
Newton, Keynes MS 5, fol. 48r.

Similarly, Newton identifies Lucifer in the prophetic dirge of Isaiah 14, another helpful litmus test for belief in the devil, not as Satan, or as Satan working through the King of Babylon, but simply as the King of Babylon A literal devil does not now appear in Newton’s apocalyptic system.
(Newton, Keynes MS 5, fol. 98r.)

The first reference to a serpent in the Bible is found in the account of the first human sin committed in the Garden of Eden, and it is to this account that Newton turns when tracing the origin of the serpentine imagery of the “spirit of error.”

Newton saw the serpent that tempted Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of the
Knowledge of Good and Evil as symbolic of the fleshly lust for her husband that filled her heart. The forbidden fruit itself stands for both the temptation and the temptation acted upon, for Eve “lusted first & tempted Adam . . . & . . . this is represented by her eating & giving him to eat, the eating signifying as well the lust as the external act.”

Eden was itself a graphic emblem of the “spirit of delusion.” The same spirit has been at work in mankind’s affairs—at both the personal and collective levels—since the beginning of human history.
Newton, Yahuda MS 9.1, fol. 19v.

LISTEN:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said , It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

he-man said:

What does Newton say?
Newton denied the orthodox doctrine of the immortality of the soul and rejected the existence of the demonic hordes and the Archfiend himself...against the tradition and the passionate rhetoric of orthodoxy.
James E. Force, “The God of Abraham and Isaac (Newton),”

In his “Language of the Prophets,” which dates from the latter half of the first decade of the eighteenth century, Newton glosses the relevant text from Revelation 12 in the following way:

And there appeared another wonder in heaven, & behold a great red Dragon [the Roman heathen Empire] having seven heads & ten horns & seven crowns upon his heads. This Dragon being the old serpent called the Devil & Satan, is that Devil who hath his seat in Pergamus, that is the Greek empire in the reign of the last horn of Daniel’s He Goat.
Newton, Keynes MS 5, fol. 48r.

Similarly, Newton identifies Lucifer in the prophetic dirge of Isaiah 14, another helpful litmus test for belief in the devil, not as Satan, or as Satan working through the King of Babylon, but simply as the King of Babylon A literal devil does not now appear in Newton’s apocalyptic system.
(Newton, Keynes MS 5, fol. 98r.)

The first reference to a serpent in the Bible is found in the account of the first human sin committed in the Garden of Eden, and it is to this account that Newton turns when tracing the origin of the serpentine imagery of the “spirit of error.”

Newton saw the serpent that tempted Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of the
Knowledge of Good and Evil as symbolic of the fleshly lust for her husband that filled her heart. The forbidden fruit itself stands for both the temptation and the temptation acted upon, for Eve “lusted first & tempted Adam . . . & . . . this is represented by her eating & giving him to eat, the eating signifying as well the lust as the external act.”

Eden was itself a graphic emblem of the “spirit of delusion.” The same spirit has been at work in mankind’s affairs—at both the personal and collective levels—since the beginning of human history.
Newton, Yahuda MS 9.1, fol. 19v.

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Newton was a very powerful thinker, however not perfect. Newton also rejected the trinity:

some info found here:
Drafts on the history of the Church (Section 3) (Normalized Version)

Timothew said:

My hot dog fell off the stick and was consumed by the fire. Care to eat it?
You can't because it was burnt to ash.

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the hotdog is therefore not annihilated, as ash from the hotdog still exists. Thank you for proving my point.

Timothew said:

No, after the chaff is destroyed by fire it does not continue to exist. It has been consumed by fire.

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very good, so yes there is a byproduct of the fires, namely ashes. So the chaff is not annihilated. So again you prove my point.

And it is not like the Bible does not have examples of things NOT being "consumed by fire" as in unchanged. But I do agree with many theologians going long before any of us that the suffering in Hell will change a person, physically and mentally. Just as suffering here in this life can.

This fire and burning in misery is imagery, eternal torment is what is being stated with it, those in rebellion who Yahweh made to last really face that.

gradyll said:

very good, so yes there is a byproduct of the fires, namely ashes. So the chaff is not annihilated. So again you prove my point.

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If a body is buried or just layed out, it turns to dust.
If a body is cremated/burned, it turns into ashes.

Gen 18:27
Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord:

Eze 27:30
They will make their voice heard because of you;
They will cry bitterly and cast dust on their heads;
They will roll about in ashes;

Mal 4:3
You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust/coun <5522> upon their heads
and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying "Woe! Woe! the City, the Great, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness! that in one hour She was desolated.

Kansas - Dust in the Wind - YouTube

gradyll said:

very good, so yes there is a byproduct of the fires, namely ashes. So the chaff is not annihilated. So again you prove my point.

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Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

gradyll said:

very good, so yes there is a byproduct of the fires, namely ashes. So the chaff is not annihilated. So again you prove my point.

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So just as ash "survives" after the chaff is burnt up, people survive as ash after they have been destroyed in Gehenna?

No, I do not prove your point. Ash has no consciousness, so people can't be conscious of eternal conscious torment because their "ash" remains. Honestly that is just about the worst argument for eternal conscious torment in hell that I have ever heard.

Timothew said:

So just as ash "survives" after the chaff is burnt up, people survive as ash after they have been destroyed in Gehenna?

No, I do not prove your point. Ash has no consciousness, so people can't be conscious of eternal conscious torment because their "ash" remains. Honestly that is just about the worst argument for eternal conscious torment in hell that I have ever heard.

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The point was not that the ash of chaff had "consciousness", the point (which this reply does not address) was that something remains. Which is precisely the idea put forth by theologiians (CS Lewis - "what remains") as to what occurs to the damned in Hell. That such could not be considered "death" or "utter destruction" is only possible in the minds of those who limit those words to a very narrow meaning.

And again, my father died - so is the thought (which one supports) that he no longer exists suppose to comfort me?

DrBubbaLove said:

The point was not that the ash of chaff had "consciousness", the point (which this reply does not address) was that something remains. Which is precisely the idea put forth by theologiians (CS Lewis - "what remains") as to what occurs to the damned in Hell. That such could not be considered "death" or "utter destruction" is only possible in the minds of those who limit those words to a very narrow meaning.

And again, my father died - so is the thought (which one supports) that he no longer exists suppose to comfort me?

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None of us are saying that when the lost are destroyed there will not possibly be a little ash that remains. The ash is not proof that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell when they die.

I'm sorry that your father died, but you can take comfort in the fact that your father will live again when he is resurrected from the dead when Jesus Christ returns. You don't need to grieve as others do who have no hope of the resurrection. Jesus will return and raise the dead and all of us who have put our faith in Jesus Christ will be together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Our hope is in Christ, our hope is for resurrection from death to eternal life when Jesus returns. Our hope is sure, because He is the Lord. I hope that you can take comfort and be encouraged by these words. Jesus Christ is able to make the dead alive again. There are many examples in the Gospels of this. He is willing and able to bring your father back to life when He returns. May God bless you forever.