Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus claimed he would not taste of the vine again until his return- mentioning of the everlasting water as well.

That is not quite what he said. He said this before his crucifixion:

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." -- Mk 14:25

"For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." -- Lk 22:18

"And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

And this happened shortly after his resurrection:

"And while they [the disciples] yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." -- Lk 24:41-43

What the scripture says is the Kingdom of God began no later than shortly after the resurrection of Christ, since the prophecy of him eating was fulfilled in the presence of his disciples shortly after his resurection.
.
 
Upvote 0

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It is all symbolic, exactly like it is in the old testament. How do you reconcile life going on after all green grass is burned up? Shouldn't all life die in a very short time after that?

Literalism always fails.



No, the scripture says, "Behold I make all things new!" It does not say it will create the earth from scratch. The scriptures also says, over and over again, in many different ways, that the earth will be here forever, and that Jesus came to save the earth, not destroy it.

Answer this: if God will destroy this earth and create a new one, who is he destroying here?

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." -- Rev 11:18

Does God destroy himself for destroying the earth?

There is a lot packed in that single verse, Revelation 11:18.

In case you didn't catch it the first time, literalism always fails.

We've covered the grass- it's the great tribulation, man is suppose to suffer- famines,droughts, yes DEATH( if it's possible to die at that time). Guess I also have to point out food reserves and mark of the beast to purchase the limited amount of food and water here as well. Literal grass burning up, decaying, dead, or if you choose literal fire from bombs, sun or whatever else tickles your fancy for literal and not symbolic.

The rest of your refute is agreeing with the point I had just got done making in post #739. The earth as we know "3rd rock from the sun", will remain, it will get remade as new. It will get destroyed as in not recognizable from the 7vials, seals, trump events.

An again, literalism does not fail, and you've yet come close to proving it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That is not quite what he said. He said this before his crucifixion:

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." -- Mk 14:25

"For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." -- Lk 22:18

"And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

And this happened shortly after his resurrection:

"And while they [the disciples] yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." -- Lk 24:41-43

What the scripture says is the Kingdom of God began no later than shortly after the resurrection of Christ, since the prophecy of him eating was fulfilled in the presence of his disciples shortly after his resurection.
.

Correct that he said "drink" not taste, that was my error.

Though I think it's more clear that would G his last feast until his death, or if you even wanted, his last meal until his death. So him eating meat and honeycomb is not an issue.
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
Rev20 said in post 741:

What the scripture says is the Kingdom of God began no later than shortly after the resurrection of Christ . . .

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Correct that he said "drink" not taste, that was my error.

Though I think it's more clear that would G his last feast until his death, or if you even wanted, his last meal until his death. So him eating meat and honeycomb is not an issue.

You stated previously that he would not drink again until his return. I was pointing out that you misquoted Jesus. He never mentioned "returning" in that context; only that the next time he ate and drank it would be in the "kingdom of God."

This is the sequence:

1) Jesus ate a meal before his crucifixion, and he said this:

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

2) Shortly after his resurrection, with his disciples, there was the fulfillment:

"And while they [the disciples] yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." -- Lk 24:41-43

Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of eating in the kingdom of God; which can only mean that the kingdom of God existed before his ascension to the Father in Acts 1:9. That was the point I was trying to make: the kingdom of God has existed since the first century.
.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We've covered the grass- it's the great tribulation, man is suppose to suffer- famines,droughts, yes DEATH( if it's possible to die at that time).

You don't seem to understand that if all green grass burnt up, worldwide, everything would die. There would be no food chain.

But everything did not die because the great tribulation was a local event, covering a length of land about 1,600 furlongs (Rev 14:20), or about 200 miles. The Greek word for earth (Strong's 1093) in the "green grass" chapter of Revelation 8 means "soil; by extension a region". Some of the many verses that use that same Greek word for local land areas are as follows:

Mt 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land <1093> of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Mt 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land <1093> of Israel.

Mt 9:26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land <1093>.

Mt 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land <1093> of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth <1093>.

Mt 14:34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land <1093> of Gennesaret.

Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth <1093> stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

In the example above of kings of the earth, the only "kings" that were gathered against Christ were the kings, governors and leaders of Judaea. Rome was unconcerned with Christ. That statement actually meant, "the sovereigns of Jerusalem and Judaea gathered together against Christ," which is the way it was fulfilled.

There are over 200 verses in the new testament that contain Strong's 1093, and not once does it mean the entire earth. The words "the land", with no further identity, always meant the land of Israel in the old testament. When it meant any other land, it would identify it, as the land of Syria, land of Egypt, etc..

Guess I also have to point out food reserves and mark of the beast to purchase the limited amount of food and water here as well. Literal grass burning up, decaying, dead, or if you choose literal fire from bombs, sun or whatever else tickles your fancy for literal and not symbolic.

You can imagine all sorts of things from those symbolic statements in the Revelation. But who does God destroy for destroying the earth? (see Rev 11:18.) I mean, if God destroys the earth, and he destroys those who destroy the earth, does God destroy himself?

The rest of your refute is agreeing with the point I had just got done making in post #739. The earth as we know "3rd rock from the sun", will remain, it will get remade as new. It will get destroyed as in not recognizable from the 7vials, seals, trump events.

What happens to the nations and kings: the ones who will need healing on the new earth (Rev 22:2)? Does Jesus simply sweep them up into the air out of harms way, destroy and rebuild the earth, and then replant them back on the earth, as nations and kings? How does that work?
 
Upvote 0

shturt678s

Regular Member
Dec 11, 2013
2,733
118
✟18,297.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
The man of sin was already seated in the temple in Paul's time.

Thessalonians 2:3-4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

Paul said that the man of sin "has sat down" in the temple. He was already on the scene in Paul's time. Try again.

Only my two-bits, that is, good job BABerean2 and The Boxer!

Was already in the "temple" (IIThess.2:4), or per the YLT, in the "sanctuary," that is, makes a biggg difference grammatically and contextually???

Old Jack
 
Upvote 0

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

While I should have used drink instead of taste, his return is OBVIOUS and I wrongly figured it would get understood for what It meant. Is he or is he not returning as these verses show rev 1:7; 1 thess 4:16-17; John 14:3; zech 14:3-5; Matt 24:27-30; 1 thess 3:13; rev 22:12; Isaiah 2:17-19; rev 19:14; Joel 2:31-32; Titus 2:13; and Acts 1:11

If you'd like to argue the aspect my view of his return is the setting up of his kingdom/marriage supper then make that point concisely. You are failing horribly with your refutes-see your quote.
You stated previously that he would not drink again until his return. I was pointing out that you misquoted Jesus. He never mentioned "returning" in that context; only that the next time he ate and drank it would be in the "kingdom of God."

This is the sequence:

1) Jesus ate a meal before his crucifixion, and he said this:
"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16
2) Shortly after his resurrection, with his disciples, there was the fulfillment:
"And while they [the disciples] yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." -- Lk 24:41-43
Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of eating in the kingdom of God; which can only mean that the kingdom of God existed before his ascension to the Father in Acts 1:9. That was the point I was trying to make: the kingdom of God has existed since the first century.

****until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." - does not indicate AT ALL he won't eat until he enters the kingdom of God ( your words). What it indicates is it will G his LAST time eating with them until it G fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Until what is fulfilled- top 2 answers, his sacrifice on the cross, his marriage supper- also some venture to view it as the annual coming to the new Jeresulam( after judgment).

Though your stuck actually refuting what I said because neither of your verses indicate he drank fruit of the vine after his resurrection. Which was what I said, I did not mention eating.

which can only mean that the kingdom of God existed before his ascension to the Father in Acts 1:9

Well I'd surely hope so. If their were no kingdom of God where was Jesus ascending to in John 20:17. If their were no kingdom of God where was Gods throne. If their were no kingdom of God, from whence did lucifer stand before God in the book of Job? If their were no kingdom of God, what did God create in gen 1:1 besides earth?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You don't seem to understand that if all green grass burnt up, worldwide, everything would die. There would be no food chain.

I KNOW THIS, AND HAVE ALREADY AGREED THAT THIS IS WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE FUTURE GREAT TRIBULATION.

It is you not understanding. I acknowledge great suffering world wide, pain, droughts, famines, death of animals and marine life, mark of the beast. It's Gods judgment for all the wickedness on earth that has ensued since Cain killed Abel, with the allowance of satan being able to truly run rampant with almost zero restraints. By the way it's called food reserves, many nations have them, in times of things like DROUGHTS, FAMINES.

What happens to the nations and kings: the ones who will need healing on the new earth (Rev 22:2)? Does Jesus simply sweep them up into the air out of harms way, destroy and rebuild the earth, and then replant them back on the earth, as nations and kings? How does that work?

Did you not just get done pointing out my error of taste instead of drink?

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I don't see a mentioning of kings. Rebuilding of nations to their true glory as in growing of grass, trees, wildlife, marine life, how is that hard to understand possible with our new selves here?

But who does God destroy for destroying the earth? (see Rev 11:18.) I mean, if God destroys the earth, and he destroys those who destroy the earth, does God destroy himself?

No God isn't going to destroy himself, and it's nonsense your spewing asking that. We as man have destroyed and desecrated the earth from how God originally made and rebuilt.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is you not understanding. I acknowledge great suffering world wide, pain, droughts, famines, death of animals and marine life, mark of the beast. It's Gods judgment for all the wickedness on earth that has ensued since Cain killed Abel, with the allowance of satan being able to truly run rampant with almost zero restraints. By the way it's called food reserves, many nations have them, in times of things like DROUGHTS, FAMINES.

I see all that happening in a local area, the land of Israel, between 67 and 70 AD. There is nothing in the Revelation that indicates a world-wide anything.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I don't see a mentioning of kings. Rebuilding of nations to their true glory as in growing of grass, trees, wildlife, marine life, how is that hard to understand possible with our new selves here?

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." -- Rev 21:24-26

Yep, there are still kings.

No God isn't going to destroy himself, and it's nonsense your spewing asking that. We as man have destroyed and desecrated the earth from how God originally made and rebuilt.

LOL! That is too much.
.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While I should have used drink instead of taste, his return is OBVIOUS and I wrongly figured it would get understood for what It meant. Is he or is he not returning as these verses show rev 1:7; 1 thess 4:16-17; John 14:3; zech 14:3-5; Matt 24:27-30; 1 thess 3:13; rev 22:12; Isaiah 2:17-19; rev 19:14; Joel 2:31-32; Titus 2:13; and Acts 1:11

If you'd like to argue the aspect my view of his return is the setting up of his kingdom/marriage supper then make that point concisely. You are failing horribly with your refutes-see your quote.

All the scripture is saying is, the Kingdom of God/heaven was established on earth before Jesus ascended to the Father.

****until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." - does not indicate AT ALL he won't eat until he enters the kingdom of God.

This is exactly what he said:

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

What it indicates is it will G his LAST time eating with them until it G fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Until what is fulfilled- top 2 answers, his sacrifice on the cross, his marriage supper- also some venture to view it as the annual coming to the new Jeresulam( after judgment).

That is not what he said. This is what he said:
"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

Though your stuck actually refuting what I said because neither of your verses indicate he drank fruit of the vine after his resurrection. Which was what I said, I did not mention eating.

It doesn't matter. He "ate". That fulfilled the prophecy. You can argue all day long whether he ate with or without wine or juice. But it changes nothing. Jesus ate a meal with the disciples, on earth, in the kingdom of God. And that occurred prior to this ascension to the Father, which was prior to the day of Pentecost.

Well I'd surely hope so. If their were no kingdom of God where was Jesus ascending to in John 20:17. If their were no kingdom of God where was Gods throne. If their were no kingdom of God, from whence did lucifer stand before God in the book of Job? If their were no kingdom of God, what did God create in gen 1:1 besides earth?

I give up.
 
Upvote 0

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." -- Rev 21:24-26

Yep, there are still kings.
.

An Jesus won't drink of the vine until his return, as I had mentioned. Even though it wasn't said it was imposed, which is the same as your attempting to do with your kings.
 
Upvote 0

shturt678s

Regular Member
Dec 11, 2013
2,733
118
✟18,297.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
All the scripture is saying is, the Kingdom of God/heaven was established on earth before Jesus ascended to the Father.



This is exactly what he said:

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16



That is not what he said. This is what he said:
"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16



It doesn't matter. He "ate". That fulfilled the prophecy. You can argue all day long whether he ate with or without wine or juice. But it changes nothing. Jesus ate a meal with the disciples, on earth, in the kingdom of God. And that occurred prior to this ascension to the Father, which was prior to the day of Pentecost.



I give up.

So the Kingdom of God goes back to Adam ruling the world until the consummation, ie, and divided being the Kingdom before Christ and after.

Old Jack's opinion
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
An Jesus won't drink of the vine until his return, as I had mentioned.
Even though it wasn't said it was imposed, which is the same as your attempting to do with your kings.
Interesting.
Wouldn't He have to bring the Apostels back with Him? And where does Revelation show Him coming back?

Mat 26:29
“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.”
Mar 14:25
“Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luk 22:18
“for I say to you,I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”


.
 
Upvote 0

KrAZeD

Newbie
Apr 13, 2014
391
14
✟15,602.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
All the scripture is saying is, the Kingdom of God/heaven was established on earth before Jesus ascended to the Father.



This is exactly what he said:

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

That is not what he said. This is what he said:
"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." -- Lk 22:15-16

It doesn't matter. He "ate". That fulfilled the prophecy. You can argue all day long whether he ate with or without wine or juice. But it changes nothing. Jesus ate a meal with the disciples, on earth, in the kingdom of God. And that occurred prior to this ascension to the Father, which was prior to the day of Pentecost.

I give up.

You should give up with your Luke 22:15-16 aspect. It is not saying he will not eat until he's in the kingdom of God. He says UNTIL IT G Fulfilled in the kingdom of GOD. Something MUST get fulfilled prior to him eating. Their is a huge difference in that understanding. Basically your false belief.

Also you are severally mistaken. John 20:17 he ascends to his Father which is prior to Luke 24:41-43.

Also, unlike your view a prophecy is not complete till it's 100%. If he hasn't drank the fruit of the vine, then Matt 26:29 mentioning of the fathers kingdom indicates it's not currently here yet.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
An Jesus won't drink of the vine until his return, as I had mentioned. Even though it wasn't said it was imposed, which is the same as your attempting to do with your kings.

Jesus never said what you said, nor did he "impose" it. You, personally, added the word "return" to the Word of God.

Jesus simply showed us, by eating with his disciples, that the kingdom of God has existed on this earth since before the day of Pentecost. I challenge you to prove otherwise with scripture.

I have imposed nothing. I quoted the Word of God exactly as written. This is the context of the "kings of the earth" passage:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." -- Rev 21:1-2

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," -- Rev 21:10

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." -- Rev 21:22-27

Like I said, after the so-called "new heaven and earth" are created, there will still be nations, and there will still be kings! If you know any verses from the Word of God that dispute that, then by all means present them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by shturt678s
So the Kingdom of God goes back to Adam ruling the world until the consummation, ie, and divided being the Kingdom before Christ and after.

Old Jack's opinion
Old Jack, I don't understand what you mean. Help me out :)
Datz cuz he iz ole skool Lutheran ;) :p

3d91a2b8b8f644111c6b935b6aefcb15.jpg
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.