Is your forgiveness as objective as you may think it to be?

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2014

There's a story in the gospels about forgiveness and I wonder if it is something you have considered deeply or not. Consider what it says and ask yourself how forgiven am I?

Luke 11:1-13 NAB (1) He was praying in a certain place, and when he had finished, one of his disciples said to him, Lord, teach us to pray just as John taught his disciples. (2) He said to them, When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. (3) Give us each day our daily bread (4) and forgive us our sins for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test.

(5) And he said to them, Suppose one of you has a friend to whom he goes at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, (6) for a friend of mine has arrived at my house from a journey and I have nothing to offer him,' (7) and he says in reply from within, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been locked and my children and I are already in bed. I cannot get up to give you anything.' (8) I tell you, if he does not get up to give him the loaves because of their friendship, he will get up to give him whatever he needs because of his persistence. (9) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. (10) For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (11) What father among you would hand his son a snake when he asks for a fish? (12) Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg? (13) If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the holy Spirit to those who ask him?

If you do not forgive can you really expect to be forgiven by God?

Steeno7 · Jul 5, 2014

The cross changed everything.

squint · Jul 5, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
If you do not forgive can you really expect to be forgiven by God?

The absolute worst form of unforgiveness that exists on planet earth is from believers who think their enemies are going to burn alive forever.

A believer can have an enemy and not think that about them in their heart.

Herod was not the forgiven friend of any N.T. believer of his day OR they may have used forgiveness to speed up his death, but that can't be substantiated for him specifically.

Enemies of believers, for the most part, DO NOT KNOW what they are doing so there is no reason to hold anything against those enemies. They are merely being pawned. In a way it's a compliment from God.

s

~Anastasia~ · Jul 5, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
There's a story in the gospels about forgiveness and I wonder if it is something you have considered deeply or not. Consider what it says and ask yourself how forgiven am I?<snip>
If you do not forgive can you really expect to be forgiven by God?

I have thought about it deeply, and a number of times. Something about it still nags at me (that's just a "feeling" and not sure it's worth anything - it may come from the fact that I was never taught this before).

But on the other hand, there are passages that certainly seem to state it in no uncertain terms.

14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. (Matt 6)

Pair that with many passages that would cause us to seek reconciliation so that others may forgive us (and we are not the cause of someone else not being forgiven in that case). Even in the OT, God says He hates those who sow discord among the brethren and seems to desire we live in peace with one another.

I think God is serious about this. I see more and more the Body of believers (and to a degree, all people, and even all creation) as part of a "family" - I would say "community", but I think God counts it closer than that. He loves all, and I think it honors Him when we love others. Especially other believers, but other people, and even His creation.

If He is the Father, and all are His children in a sense, and creation is His, then He has a right to be concerned about it. Even more if He is love. And I think love we show for others honors Him.

Harboring unforgiveness is the opposite, imo, and a kind of hate. It stands as a wall between us and those we refuse to forgive, and also damages us on the inside. Such an attitude is also in direct contrast to God's will. He made the ultimate sacrifice so forgiveness was possible. For us to hold onto unforgiveness in the face of that - seems to be almost to spit in His face, making our own petty desire for revenge more important than His sacrifice.

I don't know. I see many reasons. It seems that unforgiveness is like a dark tree that spreads it's branches into many areas. I think God desires the tree to be cut down at its roots.

The Scriptures say what they say. So I spend time, searching my heart for unforgiveness, just as I do for sins I need to repent of. It needs to be rooted out. Sometimes of course we need God's help - some things are perhaps impossible for us to forgive on our own. But I believe it is what we are called to embrace.

Rick Otto · Jul 5, 2014

...on the other hand, does God ever choose not to be forgiving?

ChristsSoldier115 · Jul 5, 2014

I forgive, and the person continues to burn me. Does that make me a fool?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 5, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
I forgive, and the person continues to burn me. Does that make me a fool?

When that happened to me, I tried to consider it as an opportunity to learn even more to forgive.

However, God does not require us to allow people to continue to hurt us. Though sometimes circumstances do.

If we can't avoid it, we must continue to forgive, I think. Does your not forgiving somehow protect them from burning you again?

squint · Jul 5, 2014

God in Christ has guaranteed us hatred if we are following Him.

It is one of the most secure promises in the scriptures.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Shall is NOT a maybe.

Now, where is that heavenly TOOL called forgiveness? You will need this as a vital GARB in this world.

When the blind men nailed Jesus to the cross, what did He show you?

When Stephen was stoned, what did he show you?

When the Holy Spirit speaks, the world of evil reacts to KILL.

s

Albion · Jul 5, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
If you do not forgive can you really expect to be forgiven by God?

No, we do NOT earn salvation by our good deeds. We do them out of Faith, and if we do not have that Faith, we will most likely not feel the need to do them.

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2014

Kylissa said:
I have thought about it deeply, and a number of times. Something about it still nags at me (that's just a "feeling" and not sure it's worth anything - it may come from the fact that I was never taught this before).

But on the other hand, there are passages that certainly seem to state it in no uncertain terms.

14For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. (Matt 6)

Pair that with many passages that would cause us to seek reconciliation so that others may forgive us (and we are not the cause of someone else not being forgiven in that case). Even in the OT, God says He hates those who sow discord among the brethren and seems to desire we live in peace with one another.

I think God is serious about this. I see more and more the Body of believers (and to a degree, all people, and even all creation) as part of a "family" - I would say "community", but I think God counts it closer than that. He loves all, and I think it honors Him when we love others. Especially other believers, but other people, and even His creation.

If He is the Father, and all are His children in a sense, and creation is His, then He has a right to be concerned about it. Even more if He is love. And I think love we show for others honors Him.

Harboring unforgiveness is the opposite, imo, and a kind of hate. It stands as a wall between us and those we refuse to forgive, and also damages us on the inside. Such an attitude is also in direct contrast to God's will. He made the ultimate sacrifice so forgiveness was possible. For us to hold onto unforgiveness in the face of that - seems to be almost to spit in His face, making our own petty desire for revenge more important than His sacrifice.

I don't know. I see many reasons. It seems that unforgiveness is like a dark tree that spreads it's branches into many areas. I think God desires the tree to be cut down at its roots.

The Scriptures say what they say. So I spend time, searching my heart for unforgiveness, just as I do for sins I need to repent of. It needs to be rooted out. Sometimes of course we need God's help - some things are perhaps impossible for us to forgive on our own. But I believe it is what we are called to embrace.

Do you remember the parable about the unforgiving servant? It has a lesson to teach us about our own state before God.

Matthew 18:23-35 KJV
(23) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
(24) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
(25) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
(26) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(27) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
(28) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
(29) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(30) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
(31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 5, 2014

Kylissa said:
......I see more and more the Body of believers (and to a degree, all people, and even all creation) as part of a "family" - I would say "community", but I think God counts it closer than that. He loves all, and I think it honors Him when we love others. Especially other believers, but other people, and even His creation.

If He is the Father, and all are His children in a sense, and creation is His, then He has a right to be concerned about it. Even more if He is love. And I think love we show for others honors Him. ...

Click to expand...

I like to read your posts and this is no exception. Being in the family of God doesn't guarantee easy sailing anymore than any family of siblings. But God in His family creates a love for each other that isn't found anywhere else. To deny that and be unforgiving would be like lying to God.

ChristsSoldier115 · Jul 5, 2014

Kylissa said:
When that happened to me, I tried to consider it as an opportunity to learn even more to forgive.

However, God does not require us to allow people to continue to hurt us. Though sometimes circumstances do.

If we can't avoid it, we must continue to forgive, I think. Does your not forgiving somehow protect them from burning you again?

It was sort of a rhetorical question against those who do not forgive or reasons why people do not forgive. Why should I forgive Joe Snuffy if the last two times he cheated me? Whats to stop him this time as I am so gullible? Whats to say he won't this time?

I forgive with hope on the third question. Because that means that this time my christian love and prayers, guided by the Holy Spirit, cracked His or hers hardened heart. All that time and money was not wasted at all. Another soul for Christ to reclaim.

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
It was sort of a rhetorical question against those who do not forgive or reasons why people do not forgive. Why should I forgive Joe Snuffy if the last two times he cheated me? Whats to stop him this time as I am so gullible? Whats to say he won't this time?

I forgive with hope on the third question. Because that means that this time my christian love and prayers, guided by the Holy Spirit, cracked His or hers hardened heart. All that time and money was not wasted at all. Another soul for Christ to reclaim.

Do you think that forgiveness means being open to the cheat's cheating ways again?

I have a person in my life who has always asked and wanted and taken but has never repaid even when wealth and opportunity allowed it. I forgive them their debts yet I decline to lend again. When need is great I will give but not lend to them. I know your example was given for illustrative purposes so it may not have represented a real situation in your life. So you needn't try to answer my question if you don't think you've gained the wisdom needed to answer.

For myself I am inclined to think that if I cannot forgive another person for the comparatively small sins they can commit against me wouldn't it be odd for me to expect God to forgive me for all the things I've done to harm others and God?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 5, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
It was sort of a rhetorical question against those who do not forgive or reasons why people do not forgive. Why should I forgive Joe Snuffy if the last two times he cheated me? Whats to stop him this time as I am so gullible? Whats to say he won't this time?

I forgive with hope on the third question. Because that means that this time my christian love and prayers, guided by the Holy Spirit, cracked His or hers hardened heart. All that time and money was not wasted at all. Another soul for Christ to reclaim.

Ah, I see what you mean then.

Forgive, yes. Trust someone yet again after burning you several times? Only you can answer that question. I think that not to trust them is not necessarily indicating a lack of forgiveness though. It can even be considered an act of mercy if you prevent them from gaining an occasion to sin against you once again. I think examining our own hearts is essential. God surely knows them better than we do, and I pray not to be hypocritical or fooling myself as to my motives (not that I'm perfect - I only try).

Yes, forgiveness and prayer may crack a hard exterior one day. God be praised!

There is one that I have prayed for over the course of years of persecution. Their hard exterior was never "cracked" yet (I do still pray for them sometimes) but after 7 or 8 years, God at least protected me from them having much opportunity to hurt me anymore. And they have been the source of a great deal of growth in my life so I should be thankful to them.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 5, 2014

There's a difference between putting oneself repeatedly in harms way and learning from the circumstances that are presented in our lives.Those things that used to vex me completely don't bother me like they used to. And because of that the same situation with the same people doesn't have the same outcome. I think removing people and not allowing God to work His lessons isn't the right thing for personal growth. God has a way of tearing down before He builds up. The person that needs forgiveness the most in our lives may be the one person that is giving things to us that are more valuable than can be known.

Is your forgiveness as objective as you may think it to be?

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