I think I am revising my views about prayer ...

I think I am revising my views about prayer. I have come to believe that I cause nothing; God causes everything. The way I have approached prayer seems to be (although I would never have admitted it) that God is in heaven, arms folded, helpless (or worse, unconcerned) about healing the sick, helping the poor, protecting his children, until we get busy praying—so, if I/we do not pray then God will not heal or rescue us. Which makes the answer to prayer really all the pray-ers efforts, not so much the Lord’s. Our prayer becomes the deliverance tool.

I know that God allows our freewill and the problems/benefits it brings—without freewill we would all be preprogrammed robots, unable to love one another or resolve any of our dilemmas. So, I cannot conceive of God allowing suffering in someone else … until I pray. Prayer does not change God’s mind; it changes me. God allows prayer so that we can participate with him in the work of the Kingdom and our “joy be full.”

I do not recommend this, but when I was a toddler my Dad would sit me in his lap and let me “drive” the car. Of course, his hand was near the steering wheel and his foot near the brake and I only thought I was driving, Dad was still in control. But I was ecstatic. So it is with us, God is going to get us to our destination with or without me, and allows me/us to help him (although I sometimes wonder how much help I really am), but all the glory belongs to him, not me. Jesus said, “Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive. Then your joy will be full” (John 16.24). Sometimes we receive a ‘Yes;’ sometimes a ‘No;’ sometimes a ‘Not now,’ but we always receive, not because we have initiated anything, but so that our “joy will be full.”

What do you think?

OldDogDiver said:

I like how Paul Billheimer says it in his book, Destined for the Throne:

"All apparently unanswered prayer that is ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL may be explained by Satan's deception, bluff and opposition PLUS the blindness, ignorance, timidity, personal character defects and failure to persist in undaunted, unwavering faith of individual believers and the Church as a whole."

Unlike the OP, I believe our prayers cause much - if we are praying according to His will.

James 5:16 says it well:
KJV
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

NLT
The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

Click to expand...

I think we are saying the same thing (sort of). You said our prayers are granted “If we are praying according to his will.” What if we pray and it is not according to his will? Will he grant our wishes? Of course not—no good parent would give his child a serpent instead of a fish or a scorpion instead of an egg. So, God has a will and, if we are to be in the kingdom, we must do things his way. Unfortunately, a lot of the time we insist on our way and wind up in a ditch. But when God puts us in his lap and tells us to drive the car it is he that is in control, not us. If it were us, we would wind up in the ditch or, worse, collide with oncoming traffic. I think I said that. I am just glad he allows me to participate with him in building the kingdom, but it is HIS kingdom, not mine. The only "effectual" prayer is the prayer according to his will.

michaelmynameIs said:

Not our every wish... but he is love.. therfore he is easily untreated.
We see times when the lord states through his prophets that he will do a certain thing... then,when the people or person cries to the lord,the lord relented and does not do it.
Hezakiah is an interesting example for us of how our heavenly father is easily untreated.
The Lord says..you are going to die.Hezakiah turns his face to the wall and weeps ...
Before the prophet has left the courtyard the Lord is untreated and responds,sending the prophet back to tell Hezakiah he will not die now but live 15 more years.
-all very interesting.
We pray the will of the father...
And...
Sometimes we change the fathers will...
But have faith that he knows best.....

Click to expand...

I do not believe we can change God’s will; if we could we could not say he is perfect. As for God “repenting,” God does “change his mind” when we pray but only as it appears to us. When I was a kid and Dad let me “drive the car” while sitting in his lap he was still in control, though it appeared to me that I was. IMO, scripture was written in the language understood by the people contemporary with the events. So, when the KJV says “the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people” (Exod. 32.14) he was not repenting of evil, for the Lord does not commit evil. He simply revised his plan because the people prayed but, IMO, he knew what they would do before they did it. He was still in the driver’s seat; he was still in control of his creation.

michaelmynameIs said:

We cannot change his will in the sense that he can be moved away from doing that which ultimatly works toward the greatest expression of love toward all creation.
But certainly situational change of his will is changed by prayer .
I think we should be cautious .we must not fall into thinking our heavenly father is like the false Islamic god,whose will is absolute unchangeable and impossible to entreat.

Click to expand...

Since I believe that God is not subject to time as we are (he is, after all, Alpha and Omega … and all points in between), it is difficult for me to see this. My conviction is God knows everything that has happened or will happen. He knows every prayer that has or ever will be prayed and he knows the outcome of the prayer. He knows it because he exists in Eternity, in the eternal “Now.” He foreknew all that is and predestined it, that is to say he knew beforehand all the decisions and prayers we would make and their outcome and predestined it, i.e. he said, “So be it.” So, the prayers we pray and their resolution were foreknown/foreordained by God before the creation of the world—God knew if we would pray or not even before we ever fell to our knees. Anyhow, that’s how I see it.

michaelmynameIs said:

I see it that way also in regard to God and time.
But don't limit him there either .

Click to expand...

.

Optimax said:

Do prayers change things?

Ask Hezekiah.

Isa 38:1-6
38:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the Lord,

3 And said, Remember now, O Lord, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

4 Then came the word of the Lord to Isaiah, saying,

5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

6 And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city. KJV

Click to expand...

But my contention is that God foreknew and predestined this before Hezekiah ever prayed his prayer. It was already a done deal. But Hezekiah and Isaiah did not know this and so, for them, it was a matter of freewill.

We can make it as difficult as we want if our objective is to muddy the water. If you want to see it that way, then that's your CHOICE, but I think our freewill is the deciding factor. God gives us a CHOICE and has simply okayed (i.e., foreknew, predestined) what we have chosen.