Why Are Christians Losing America?

I think in many respects that America is in someways more Christian in actions. More people care for the homeless than in times past. More charities are available to donate money and time to. More churches are sending more people overseas for missions. More Churches are becoming more adaptable to the people around them than making people adapt to the church so that more people can hear the gospel. Churches are less segregated today than in the past.

In many ways, America is no different today than back in the early 1800's. Now, America just sees its problems more frequent instead of hiding them somewhere.

This is nothing new. Read Petronius.

This sort of doom pronouncement is nothing new, nor is it specific to America or Christianity. If you look at almost any time period you can find people who say it used to be better. Japanese and Chinese buddhism has been saying we are in the final degenerate age for over a thousand years. The Greeks wrote about the decline of society due to the profligate youth of their day.

-Chris

Yesterday at 10:44 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #6

What a ridiculous hate-filled rant which distorts the message of Christ to advance the author's political agenda.

America (and the rest of the world) was never the property of "Christianity Inc." It is a much better country today than it was in the 1950s and the 1850s.

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Shhh, genocide against American Indians, Slavery and all that aren't really a part of History.     Real History is a real pain in the behind when all your trying to remember is a "Leave it to Beaver" 1950's fantasy.
 

Today at 07:34 AM Rae said this in Post #17

Hm....I don't know that even replacing it with "Republicans" works, Notto, given that they are allegedly now in control of the Federal Government...

Neo-Pagans, by the largest estimate I have heard from the Pagans themselves, number 5 million worldwide. How is it that we're taking over here in the US, then? None of us are in Congress, none of us are on Capitol Hill, none of us are governors or hold any other high political office. There are more Muslim believers in the US (9 million, according to an article I read in the Chicago Tribune) than Pagans. Why are we getting all the blame here? For goodness' sake.

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It's pretty difficult to estimate the number of Neo-Pagans when most practice thier religion in a solitary environement.  It's not really Neo-Pagans themselves that conservatives are ranting about however, it's what they imagine to be Neo-Pagan values in modern society.  Wiccans are the largest subgroup of Neo-Pagans and I'm attaching a link to a website that lists Wiccan values. If someone is going to accuse American society of adopting Neo-Pagan values they should at least know what Neo-Pagan values are....   
  

 

Today at 07:31 AM Texas Lynn said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657928#post657928)

So in your view, theocracy works, but democracy does not?  That view is rather reprehensible.  You are in no position to judge the moral fitness of your fellow citizens.

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Lynn, You misunderstand my position. Theocracy is not a viable solution for so many reasons. However, with a reverent separation of church and state as our country was at it's inception, the balace between faith and Government is achieved.

Additionally, you point to Europe in an attempt to deflect the issue of the degredation of american society. Europe's social successes and/or failures are irrelevant. However, your position that morality is indeed subject to popular opinion further illustrates my point. You look at our society where the family is destroyed and our grade school children flush their classmates out of school with a fire alarm and use a high powered rifle to pick them off from a hilltop and say "good riddance" to the family? This is reprehensible. I'm not implying that the "subservant wife model" you abhor is the appropriate one. However, a parent (father or mother) needs to be instrumental in their children's development. Additionally, this is the educated position of countless sociologists and psychologists. At any rate, your blindness is no different than the blindness of the people before you.

Hey Gunny, what was the verse in Mt. where Jesus said "let them alone, they are blind" "If the blind lead the blind, they will both fall into a pit". I think it's certainly appropriate here...

I do not know if the U.S. was ever a Christian nation. At least I have to think otherwise because of the way we treated the african americans and especially the indians. I think of 1st John. They will know we are Christians by our love.

However I do believe more had a Christian worldview in the past which is chanigng. Today in regards to worldviews we live in a post Christian era in the U.S.. And I only point the blame at us Christians. I think many who have changed their worldview from a Christian have done so because the church has not loved them or they have seen how the church has not loved in the past.

Oh and I do not beleive a theocracy or a democracy really work. I think democracy is our best man made idea so far. However I beleive like Rich Mullins said. WE just have bad math. WE think that being ruled by one evil person is worse than being ruled by a whole countrty of evil and depraved people. Either way we lose.

I have lost all faith in our government and what it can and will do for our good. 

I don't think that Christians are losing America. They are a very powerful community with disparate beliefs and goals for the society they live in.

I also don't think that the 50's were better than modern times. Our old post office has three bathrooms--men, women, and colored. But there was prayer in schools! Black schools and white schools both had prayer. I'm sure that made them feel better when they were denied their rights.

--tibac

MT 24:3 And while he was seated on the Mountain of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Make clear to us, when will these things be? and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?

MT 24:4 And Jesus said to them in answer, Take care that you are not tricked.

MT 24:5 For people will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and a number will be turned from the true way through them.

MT 24:6 And news will come to you of wars and talk of wars: do not be troubled, for these things have to be; but it is still not the end.

MT 24:7 For nation will be moved against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and men will be without food, and the earth will be shaking in different places;

MT 24:8 But all these things are the first of the troubles.

MT 24:9 Then they will be cruel to you, and will put you to death: and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

MT 24:10 And numbers of people will be turned from the right way, and will give one another up and have hate for one another.

MT 24:11 And a number of false prophets will come, causing error.

MT 24:12 And because wrongdoing will be increased, the love of most people will become cold.

MT 24:13 But he who goes through to the end will get salvation.

MT 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be given through all the world for a witness to all nations; and then the end will come.

Today at 01:20 PM notto said this in Post #16

I think that every reference to "Christians" needs to be replaced with "Fundamentalist Christians" or "Republicans" in order for the OP to be a statement of fact.

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The first would work, the second would not.  It would exclude Republicans like:

1.  Former Senator and Defense Secretary William Cohen, the only Republican in Clinton's Cabinet, a Unitarian-Universalist

2. Rep. Ben Gilman, Jewish

3. Former Congressman and Baptist Minister John Buchanan who headed People for the American Way

4. Senator Olympia Snowe, Greek Orthodox

5. Rep. Jim Kolbe, openly gay Republican Congressman

6. Former Mayor and federal prosecutor Rudy Guilani,who lives with two gay men he calls his 'mommies'

And many more...

Wildernesse,

I am sure prayer in school demonstrated God was there, even though blacks were tormented.

Yes, but let's not be self-centered -- ask an African-American if he thinks this country has improved since the 19th century and let's see what he says.

-Chris

Today at 02:07 PM geocajun said this in Post #20

oh? who is?

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God alone.

are you in a position then to judge him as you are?

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No.  Are you?

Today at 02:35 PM geocajun said this in Post #21

the fact that you have "met countless people who have never met their father" only serves to support A_B_lievers point that the "family" is all but destroyed.

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No, that it was never nearly as prominent as social conservatives imagine it was.  The whole I-Like-Ike-50s-Leave-It-To-Beaver world never was anything but a fantasy

 Modern suburban family life consists of mother/father (*maybe* father), and 2 children (pref boy and girl). The children are born when the cost benefit analysis says its prudent, and children are overall considered a financial burden rather than a gift from God.

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OTOH children are not needed to provide hard labor in an agricultural economy.  The preferences for mixed genders among siblings comes directly from the Bible.  With the end of sons following fathers into sole propietorship type businesses, it is necessary for families to be prepared economically for childrearing.

People have always been free to make their own destiny, but I think you mean "free from social constraints" which is another sign of bad times...

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Certain imposed constraints, yes, not all.  Times are good compared to 50 and 150 years ago.

 society has lessened the social stigma from child abandonment and crimes against the family.

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This seems to be a misconception on your part.  I'd have to hear specific examples of what you mean to determine if I could agree to it to any extent.

What "cathing up to do" do you see us as having to do with the quality of life?

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I was referring to fewer teen pregnancies in Europe than here.

your argument seems circular. "the state isn't doing the parents roles, if the parents did their job, the state wouldn't have to do it for them"

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Perhaps.  I still think hyperbole in stating the magnitude of state intervention in family life is a favorite exagerration by social conservatives.

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Falling Away
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith. Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness (see Is Anyone Free Of Sin?) - it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
Apostasy, or rather, never committing it, is a very serious matter. Once one knows better, he or she is expected to do better. Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is The Unpardonable Sin (see also What Is Sin?)

What does The Bible have to say about apostasy? What does Bible Prophecy say about it in the end-time?

"In Later Times"

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:1-5 RSV)

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 RSV)

"Thorns and Thistles"

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8 RSV)

Fact Finder: In the Olivet Prophecy (named after The Mount Of Olives from which it was spoken), how did Jesus Christ describe world conditions just prior to His Return?
Matthew 24:3-35





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Texas Lynn -

I was referring to fewer teen pregnancies in Europe than here.

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Excellent point.

Of course, the Europeans have the added advantage of sex education.

gunny -

Falling Away
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith. Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness (see Is Anyone Free Of Sin?) - it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.

Apostasy, or rather, never committing it, is a very serious matter. Once one knows better, he or she is expected to do better. Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is The Unpardonable Sin (see also What Is Sin?)

What does The Bible have to say about apostasy? What does Bible Prophecy say about it in the end-time?

"In Later Times"

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:1-5 RSV)

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 RSV)

"Thorns and Thistles"

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8 RSV)

Fact Finder: In the Olivet Prophecy (named after The Mount Of Olives from which it was spoken), how did Jesus Christ describe world conditions just prior to His Return?
Matthew 24:3-35

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Astonishing as it may sound, I actually agree with this 100%.

That was a great post.

Today at 07:16 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #27 Additionally, you point to Europe in an attempt to deflect the issue of the degredation of american society. Europe's social successes and/or failures are irrelevant.

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Not at all.  We can learn by analyzing others.

However, your position that morality is indeed subject to popular opinion further illustrates my point.

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That's not my position.  I never said it was.

You look at our society where the family is destroyed and our grade school children flush their classmates out of school with a fire alarm and use a high powered rifle to pick them off from a hilltop and say "good riddance" to the family? 

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You're trying to use isolated incidents like the school shootings to justify your position.  But look where they occurred:  Paducah, Kentucky;  Jonesboro, Arkansas;  Pearl, Mississippi, etc.---THE VALUES THAT THE SCHOOL SHOOTERS LEARNED THAT LED TO THEIR ACTIONS DID NOT COME FROM HOLLYWOOD!  THOSE VALUES CAME FROM RIGHT INSIDE THEIR OWN HOMES!