Could Theism simply be a human response to the instinctual fear of death?

Gladius · Jun 25, 2014

Is there a theistic religion which doesnt include an afterlife, or other method to cheat natural death (e.g. reincarnation)?
Why is the thought that this human existence on earth is the only one there is, so hard to accept?
Many believe it to be the case for every other living thing on earth. Why (if you accept evolution) are humans to be the exception?
Ill answer my own question here, were the only species (accepted at present) to be able to devise supernatural mental constructs (called theologies) on how to cheat death.

Philothei · Jun 26, 2014

But the very fact that we are able to "construct" these theologies proves that there must be such "constructs"

We all believe in something whether it is ourselves or this or that that is what it makes us human. And we do not cheat death.... Earthly death even for scientists does not mean end of life but maybe as we know life as it is now... For example our bodies die but our spirit could live on. Our afterlife is not exactly like this life; it is life transformed as a we know it. It is not cheating but changed into a life of true living in a place that is so much different that what we experience now.

PsychoSarah · Jun 26, 2014

Philothei said:
But the very fact that we are able to "construct" these theologies proves that there must be such "constructs"
We all believe in something whether it is ourselves or this or that that is what it makes us human. And we do not cheat death.... Earthly death even for scientists does not mean end of life but maybe as we know life as it is now... For example our bodies die but our spirit could live on. Our afterlife is not exactly like this life; it is life transformed as a we know it. It is not cheating but changed into a life of true living in a place that is so much different that what we experience now.

You see, you are assuming an afterlife exists.

Paul of Eugene OR · Jun 26, 2014

Gladius said:
Is there a theistic religion which doesnt include an afterlife, or other method to cheat natural death (e.g. reincarnation)?
Why is the thought that this human existence on earth is the only one there is, so hard to accept?
Many believe it to be the case for every other living thing on earth. Why (if you accept evolution) are humans to be the exception?
Ill answer my own question here, were the only species (accepted at present) to be able to devise supernatural mental constructs (called theologies) on how to cheat death.

One could make the case that those humans who believed in an afterlife were more willing to do things like die for the group as a whole than those who did not and therefore it might be an evolved trait.

However, even if it is an evolved trait, it is a separate issue to decide whether or not the belief is true.

Ana the Ist · Jun 26, 2014

Philothei said:
But the very fact that we are able to "construct" these theologies proves that there must be such "constructs"
We all believe in something whether it is ourselves or this or that that is what it makes us human. And we do not cheat death.... Earthly death even for scientists does not mean end of life but maybe as we know life as it is now... For example our bodies die but our spirit could live on. Our afterlife is not exactly like this life; it is life transformed as a we know it. It is not cheating but changed into a life of true living in a place that is so much different that what we experience now.

Why would imagining an afterlife mean that an afterlife must exist?

This is the second time I've come across this reasoning in a week and it didn't make any more sense then either...

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2014

According to anthropological evidence, animism and belief in life after death predates theism. Also, belief in animism probably has more to do with the human propensity to ascribe agency to events, than it does to a fear of death.

The earliest Jewish religious ideas were not very concerned with the afterlife. This is a reflection of Mesopotamian religion in general. They did believe in ghosts, but the purpose of religion was for the living, not the dead. Immortality was secured through having children or through fame, not through religion.

BL2KTN · Jun 26, 2014

There are plenty of theistic beliefs that don't include an afterlife, early Judaism being just one. There are also atheistic beliefs that do include an afterlife.

Received · Jun 26, 2014

OP:

It could be. But that doesn't mean that theism is just a cheap way out. It could mean that death is simply incomprehensible without a sense of the afterlife. Theism could also be a way out of nihilism, or a way to live life with the most meaning, regardless of concerns for an afterlife.

Cearbhall · Jun 26, 2014

Gladius said:
Is there a theistic religion which doesn’t include an afterlife, or other method to cheat natural death (e.g. reincarnation)?

It's my understanding that Judaism originally had no concept of an afterlife. I believe it arose in an attempt to reconcile the lifelong oppression that they faced with their belief that God is just.

PsychoSarah · Jun 26, 2014

Received said:
OP:

It could be. But that doesn't mean that theism is just a cheap way out. It could mean that death is simply incomprehensible without a sense of the afterlife. Theism could also be a way out of nihilism, or a way to live life with the most meaning, regardless of concerns for an afterlife.

Doesn't not having an afterlife make the short life we have all the more precious though?

Received · Jun 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Doesn't not having an afterlife make the short life we have all the more precious though?

Absolutely! It adds more weight to Heidegger's comment that, "though the physicality of death may destroy us, the idea of life saves us."

At the same time, the present moment is the present moment. Dying won't really take away the present moment, given that the moment you're dead there is no present moment. So to me, death isn't the only motivator for living. Knowing that really living is better than not living is as well. Which is compatible with theism.

PsychoSarah · Jun 26, 2014

Received said:
Absolutely! It adds more weight to Heidegger's comment that, "though the physicality of death may destroy us, the idea of life saves us."

At the same time, the present moment is the present moment. Dying won't really take away the present moment, given that the moment you're dead there is no present moment. So to me, death isn't the only motivator for living. Knowing that really living is better than not living is as well. Which is compatible with theism.

I find it so interesting though that people assume that if a deity exists there would also be an afterlife, but that there are plenty of people who don't think a deity has to exist for an afterlife to exist.

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Doesn't not having an afterlife make the short life we have all the more precious though?

I think you misunderstand the Christian teaching about the afterlife. Christianity doesn't necessarily deny the reality that life is short or precious, just because we believe in "eternal life". If it were not so, you wouldn't find a profound Christian spirituality linked with mortality, for instance : Santa Maria della Concezione dei Cappuccini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gladius · Jun 26, 2014

Received said:
Absolutely! It adds more weight to Heidegger's comment that, "though the physicality of death may destroy us, the idea of life saves us."

At the same time, the present moment is the present moment. Dying won't really take away the present moment, given that the moment you're dead there is no present moment. So to me, death isn't the only motivator for living. Knowing that really living is better than not living is as well. Which is compatible with theism.

Very Zen.
If you don't mind me asking, if afterlife is not important to you, what is it that compels you to be a Christian (rather than a Buddhist for example).

Gladius · Jun 26, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
There are plenty of theistic beliefs that don't include an afterlife, early Judaism being just one. There are also atheistic beliefs that do include an afterlife.

Cearbhall said:
It's my understanding that Judaism originally had no concept of an afterlife. I believe it arose in an attempt to reconcile the lifelong oppression that they faced with their belief that God is just.

I'm not sure 'early' anything counts, as I was inferring a current idealogy. However it does validate my premise i.e. even against their own original theologies, some humans obviously had to create an afterlife to cheat death.

I also mentioned in my first post that there were other non-theistic beliefs in life after death i.e. reincarnation of the Buddhists.

Has anyone got anything other than the 'early' Jews, to evidence that theism always requires the promise of eternal life?

Received · Jun 26, 2014

Gladius said:
Very Zen.
If you don't mind me asking, if afterlife is not important to you, what is it that compels you to be a Christian (rather than a Buddhist for example).

The afterlife is somewhat important to me, but what keeps me Christian is the ontology behind the theology. E.g., Christ as the logos, which can be seen as the driving force of conscience and salvation, etc.

PsychoSarah · Jun 26, 2014

Received said:
The afterlife is somewhat important to me, but what keeps me Christian is the ontology behind the theology. E.g., Christ as the logos, which can be seen as the driving force of conscience and salvation, etc.

But if there was no afterlife, what would that salvation be for?

SaphireOwl · Jun 26, 2014

In answer to the primary question, yes. Compounded with the ego-centric nature of the human psyche that must posit an understanding to its own satisfaction, be it arrived at by hard science or surmised through fable and myth, that we do know the answer to what awaits after we leave this flesh.

Even if it is not true, we are happily satisfied to imagine we know enough, even in our delusion as such, to think we'll be OK once we get there.

Gladius said:
Is there a theistic religion which doesnt include an afterlife, or other method to cheat natural death (e.g. reincarnation)?
Why is the thought that this human existence on earth is the only one there is, so hard to accept?
Many believe it to be the case for every other living thing on earth. Why (if you accept evolution) are humans to be the exception?
Ill answer my own question here, were the only species (accepted at present) to be able to devise supernatural mental constructs (called theologies) on how to cheat death.

jacks · Jun 26, 2014

I've never given much thought to the after life. If it exists, wonderful. If not I feel I am still "saved" from an incorrect assumption about the nature of the universe. In my mind that incorrect assumption is that we are capable of knowing its true nature without including the metaphysical. The reason I'm a Christian is because of all the philosophies I've studied it seems the most advanced. I know that could be hotly debated, but in essence Christ got it right when he said love is the key.

Gladius · Jun 26, 2014

jacks said:
I've never given much thought to the after life. If it exists, wonderful. If not I feel I am still "saved" from an incorrect assumption about the nature of the universe. In my mind that incorrect assumption is that we are capable of knowing its true nature without including the metaphysical. The reason I'm a Christian is because of all the philosophies I've studied it seems the most advanced. I know that could be hotly debated, but in essence Christ got it right when he said love is the key.

Not that I (nor anyone) has a right to question your personal belief (as opposed to the entire organisation's) but if you don't mind, could you please explain how it is possible to be (in your case) a Methodist and not be particularly concerned with the voluminous theology concerning the afterlife, in particular the entire (and somewhat particular Christian) notion of being judged/saved/redeemed/etc by Jesus only after one's mortal death.

Or asked another way, if you are only concerned with 'Love', why is it necessary to restrict that belief/concept to a (very) specific Christian definition?

Could Theism simply be a human response to the instinctual fear of death?

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