Are Gentiles God's chosen people?

HannibalFlavius said:

You just quoted the scriptures that prove it's not to all men who believe in Christ.

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No, I do not see the scriptures saying that at all.

HannibalFlavius said:

The covenant is for the house of Judah and the house of Israel alone.

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I think you might be reading things backwards.
The covenant for Israel and Judah alone is made old. Making a covenant with Gentiles will not make the covenant with Israel old. So why would they be mentioned in the passage? There is no need for that, because the passage concerns the effect the new covenant has upon the covenant made with Israel. The passage is not strictly about who the covenant is made with.

Also it is pretty clear he found fault with those under the old covenant. Gentiles were not under the old covenant. That is the reason He made a new one with Israel and Judah. The passage concerns the term new, making the first old. The new testament teachers do teach it is also made with the uncircumcision in Christ.

annier said:

Also it is pretty clear he found fault with those under the old covenant. Gentiles were not under the old covenant. That is the reason He made a new one with Israel and Judah. .

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What does this mean?









Do you think Jesus came to abolish the law?



If he finds fault with those under the old covenant, does that mean people should stop keeping the laws of Moses?



Do you have the covenant at hand so I can ask you specific questions about what it contains?


WE know what is contained in the old, and all I see is Jesus bringing the secrets of the old to show what they really mean.

The law of murder is not thrown out the window, it is tweaked, because not only is a murderer guilty of murder, but he who is angry at his brother is guilty of Murder, is this what it says in the new covenant?

Please look it up, I mean, do you have that new covenant to copy and paste?

I want to see it.


Jesus told us that we had better keep the law better than Jews, do you think he meant this?



We are shown righteous people in Revelation who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.


Did they forget that somebody has done away with the old?

HannibalFlavius said:

What does this mean?

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Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

It means the passage concerns the effects of the covenants as they relate to each other, and the cause and effect of the old covenant on the people on the people under it and Judged by it.

HannibalFlavius said:

Do you think Jesus came to abolish the law?

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No, I believe He came to fulfill it. The works of the law which he did were works which were given no other to do.

HannibalFlavius said:

If he finds fault with those under the old covenant, does that mean people should stop keeping the laws of Moses?

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People are not keeping the law of Moses already.

HannibalFlavius said:

Do you have the covenant at hand so I can ask you specific questions about what it contains?


WE know what is contained in the old, and all I see is Jesus bringing the secrets of the old to show what they really mean.

The law of murder is not thrown out the window, it is tweaked, because not only is a murderer guilty of murder, but he who is angry at his brother is guilty of Murder, is this what it says in the new covenant?

Please look it up, I mean, do you have that new covenant to copy and paste?

I want to see it.


Jesus told us that we had better keep the law better than Jews, do you think he meant this?



We are shown righteous people in Revelation who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.


Did they forget that somebody has done away with the old?

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Are you keeping the old?

Lion King said:

How about the countless wars Israel has lost throughout the centuries?

Is this another form of "prosperity gospel" (only this time based on ethnicity)?

This is incorrect.

Even the Jews are adopted through Christ. In other words, only those who believe in Christ will be considered God's children, whether Jew or Gentile.

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Not one scripture about the Jews being adopted into Christ. Several about us being adopted.

Check out the scriptures I posted. It's pretty clear. Post 122- http://www.christianforums.com/t7825727/#post65866285

Several scriptures about "Jew first" and then Gentile.

Christ is a Jew, not a gentile. Jews are the people through whom the Messiah came.

SALVATION comes through Yeshua, to the natural born Jew first, and 2nd to the gentile who's adopted into the family of G-d through Christ.

We need to be respectful of our Jewish brothers 1st place with the LORD.

We're loved EQUALLY because G-d is love, and has more than enough power and blessing to take care of us all.

But we can't erase who our Jewish brothers are to the LORD.

We also can't deny how successful the LORD makes them.

We need to put off that Ishmaelite jealousy and love our Jewish brothers (CHRIST'S kinsmen) and the land of Israel (CHRIST'S birthplace).

Being adopted into CHRIST'S Jewish family is good. No downside.

MORE scriptures about our Jewish brothers:

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew." - Romans 11:1-2

"You, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." - Romans 11:17-18

"Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." - Romans 11:28-29

annier said:

Are you keeping the old?

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Is there two?


I only hear of a supposed list of Jesus commands, having never seen a list. I only hear of a new covenant as if there were really two, but where is the other?


Please show us what other covenant you are speaking from.



Are these lies?

What does forever mean to you? And if we can't put a time limit on it, let's use the course of the sun and moon, let's just say that it will be as long as the sun and moon are seen from Earth, that is the course of the law. I din't make this time limit.

Psalm 78:7
That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:


Psalm 89:31
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;


Psalm 103:18
To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


Psalm 119:60
I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.


Psalm 119:115
Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

Proverbs 3:1
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:



Proverbs 4:4
He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.



Proverbs 7:1
My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.


Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;



Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

True or false?


Exodus 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.


Exodus 16:28
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?


Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Leviticus 22:31
Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:3
If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;


Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.



Deuteronomy 4:40
Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!


Deuteronomy 6
That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 6:17
Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.


Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 7:11
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.


Deuteronomy 8:6
Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Deuteronomy 8:11
Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:


Deuteronomy 10:13
To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?


Deuteronomy 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 11:8
Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;

Deuteronomy 11
For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:

Deuteronomy 26:17
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:

And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;

And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day.

The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.


Deuteronomy 28:45
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Deuteronomy 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Joshua 22:5
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.


1 Kings 2:3
And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:


1 Kings 3:14
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.



1 Kings 6:12
Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:


1 Kings 8:58
That he may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers.


1 Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.



1 Kings 9:6
But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

1 Kings 11:38
And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.


2 Kings 17:13
Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.



2 Kings 23:3
And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

1 Chronicles 28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever

1 Chronicles 29:19
And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book.


Nehemiah 1:5
And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

chunkofcoal said:

My point was more that Jesus was an emanation from God, not about the sephirot.

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I know, and my point was that he isn't, and the ancient Jewish Kabbalists did not teach anything like that.

Lion King said:

Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. Deuteronomy 22:11

Do you keep this command?

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I don’t know about HannibalFlavius, but I keep it.

Lion King said:

Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. Deuteronomy 22:11

Do you keep this command?

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Maybe you have me mistaken.

I don't keep much of the little laws at all, but I do not teach others not to keep it.

I do not rationalize my sin, I know what sin is, and I know what love is.


I don't tell people they have to go up to Jerusalem to keep the Tabernacles each year, but I would tell them to keep it in truth and in spirit, and above that, I would tell them that if they don't keep the tabernacles at all, Please do not bring the Pagan holy days and traditions of pagan Gods to then say they are of Jesus.


The majority of people use some sort of perverted mentality to do away with the law in order to justify their not keeping it, and to practice the worship of other gods in their traditions.


The majority use some sort of perverted mentality in order to separate themselves from God's chosen people, and the way they do this is to show the law in a bad light, so as to separate themselves from the Jews.


I would very much like to be a person who actually did keep all the little laws, and in some ways, It does make me smile to keep what I can.

I would love to get a tattoo, but I will never get one because it's against the law.

But if I did get a tattoo, I would have no fear of losing my salvation from it, It just tickles me that I can keep something.


I look at the change in the law as a curse was taken away for not keeping it all, and a spirit was given to help us keep it, not to not keep it.


But I pay no attention to the way I dress, or the food I eat, and I look into the truth of what these things really point to.



I still wouldn't dare to instruct anyone not to keep any of it.

I still have great respect for it, and the person who has brought respect back to the law has a great reward.





All this debate about the law is nothing, only one things matter.


And that is the fact that people's perception of the law has been altered by anti-semites who seek to isolate the children of Israel from the rest of the world.

It is a stumbling block to everyone who would cross back over.


Whatever the law is or isn't, it cannot get in the way of making Jews one with the believers of Jesus, and that's exactly what it does.

It is still a vehicle to separate Jews and gentiles, and the only people who can fix this is the gentiles.


They either come back to respect of the Torah, or they remain separated by their own choice.

Lion King said:

Originally Posted by Lion King
Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. Deuteronomy 22:11
Do you keep this command?

Originally Posted by Aryeh Jay
I don’t know about HannibalFlavius, but I keep it.

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So, you don't wear a garment made of two different material?

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But does the command mean only those 2 specific materials; or is it not mixing animal and vegetation; or does it mean ANY 2 different materials like Cotton - Polyester blends?

Lion King said:

So, you don't wear a garment made of two different material?

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Is the law that you do not mix fabrics, or to not mix wool and linen?
I know Josephus made clear, to wear the mixture was a privilege only given the priestly garments, that were holy. Similar in kind to the holy anointing oil. The common people were not to make that particular smell for themselves nor pour it on themselves. It was reserved for the holy priests. Are other perfumes forbidden under the law?

annier said:

Is the law that you do not mix fabrics, or to not mix wool and linen?

I know Josephus made clear....

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I'm just curious, Annier, but why would you turn to an Hellenized Jewish historian on matters of Torah & mitzvot? Again, just curious.

Lion King said:

Why are you contradicting yourself there?

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I don't contradict myself, I only know the difference between Life, and abundant life.


Abundant life is ,'' Zoe'' life.


Salvation is not abundant life, it is not the Zoe life.


We can see this in many scriptures, we can see it when all the works of men are tested, and many people will suffer loss, but THEY THEMSELVES SAVED, but only as one who goes through a fire.

Many people will come up and say,'' But we taught your name in the streets, we did miracles in your name.'' but it will be said to them,'' Depart from me, you worker of iniquity.''


Many people will enter the kingdom of heaven and seek to recline with Abraham, Isaac , and Jacob, but they will be turned around and shown the door.


The Temple had to be built in the exact deign because it's design is the pattern of heaven, and there is an outer court of darkness that stands as the outer court of gentiles.


I have no doubt that pretty much everyone is saved, But this is no to be an overcomer.

Many people are saved, but we see the true witnesses of the Lord who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus standing above all people, called out.

Very, very few people are overcomers and I don't claim to be one of them, but I have no fear of my salvation.

I know my works will be tested as all men, and while I have no fear for my salvation, I do have fear of suffering loss.

Interesting. I went to the Tikkun America website where Rabbis Dan Juster and Mike Rudolph are working on a Book of Mitzvot; examining how to walk out the 613 commands in the light of New Covenant.

The command to not mix wool and flax is listed as Maimonides RN42. But they had little on that one (at least so far - it is a work in progress) and put in a comment requesting more clarification on how they view that command.

Since I know Dan and Mike both fairly well, I expect a response. (Mike is rabbi of my congregation and my wife used to work for Dan in his office)

David Ben Yosef said:

I'm just curious, Annier, but why would you turn to an Hellenized Jewish historian on matters of Torah & mitzvot? Again, just curious.

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Do you deny that certain of the priests garments were made of wool and linen?