Paul considered that Christ's resurrection was of universal salvific benefit (2)

heymikey80 · Jun 15, 2014

janxharris said:
I'm not following much of this.

Hm. Okay, what is Christ looking forward to that leads Him to endure the Cross? The people who reject Him, which He knows with omniscience, or the people who receive Him, or what othe category can you think of?

Scripture says Jesus' motivation was this joy set before Him. What is this joy?

janxharris · Jun 15, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Hm. Okay, what is Christ looking forward to that leads Him to endure the Cross? The people who reject Him, which He knows with omniscience, or the people who receive Him, or what othe category can you think of?

Scripture says Jesus' motivation was this joy set before Him. What is this joy?

Yes, Jesus looked forward to the fulfilment of the promise which believers inherit. The omniscience of God is based on a complete foreknowledge of events in the universe. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

For whom did Christ rise from the dead for? Does his resurrection have any relevance to the non-elect? If so, what?

janxharris · Jun 16, 2014

Romans 10:6-9 (KJV - my emphasis)
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ibidem vv.14-15
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!

In view of the fact that Paul preaches (and we are to preach) belief in Christ's resurrection, I ask:

For whom did Christ rise from the dead for? If He did not die for you, then He didn't rise for you, surely? Does his resurrection have any relevance at all for the non-elect? If so, what?

For the Calvinist preacher there is an anomaly here, for he preaches belief in the resurrection to the non-elect for whom (apparently) Christ did not die.

janxharris · Jun 16, 2014

I have started a new thread with the above post as the OP in order to open it out to others:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7827988/#post65826553

Hammster · Jun 16, 2014

janxharris said:
No, I'm not leaving the OP. Of course those questions relate to Romans 10.

Why? Because Paul preached faith in the resurrected Christ. If Christ did not die for you then what relevance has His resurrection?

I asked:
Did Christ's resurrection pertain to all men? In what way is Christ's resurrection significant or of benefit for those He did not die for? Does it have any relevance at all for such men?

Actually, you are leaving the OP, and I've explained why. What did Paul say was a requirement for salvation, belief that God raised Christ from the dead, or that Christ was raised for you?

janxharris · Jun 16, 2014

Hammster said:
Actually, you are leaving the OP, and I've explained why. What did Paul say was a requirement for salvation, belief that God raised Christ from the dead, or that Christ was raised for you?

You are dodging the question. Paul preached faith in Christ's resurrection BECAUSE it relates to every human being's life. Asking someone to believe in something that was not intended for them, indeed, WOULD NOT benefit them is incongruous.

Paul did not specify belief in Christ's resurrection by saying specifically, 'for you,' because that this was the case, that he died for every individual, and therefore, rose for every individual was not, and is not in question.

Hammster · Jun 16, 2014

janxharris said:
You are dodging the question. Paul preached faith in Christ's resurrection BECAUSE it relates to every human being's life. Asking someone to believe in something that was not intended for them, indeed, WOULD NOT benefit them is incongruous.

Paul did not specify belief in Christ's resurrection by saying specifically, 'for you,' because that this was the case, that he died for every individual, and therefore, rose for every individual was not, and is not in question.

The only thing I'm dodging is your contrived anomaly. There's no point in dealing with something that's not based in reality.

janxharris · Jun 16, 2014

Hammster said:
The only thing I'm dodging is your contrived anomaly. There's no point in dealing with something that's not based in reality.

Are you going to answer the question or not? Whom did Christ rise from the dead for? It is a simple question.

Hammster · Jun 16, 2014

janxharris said:
Are you going to answer the question or not? Whom did Christ rise from the dead for? It is a simple.

The question is not relative to the discussion. I've already explained this.

EmSw · Jun 16, 2014

Hammster said:
The question is not relative to the discussion. I've already explained this.

I vote that it is relative.

janxharris · Jun 16, 2014

Hammster said:
The question is not relative to the discussion. I've already explained this.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827988-2/#post65830991

heymikey80 · Jun 20, 2014

janxharris said:
Yes, Jesus looked forward to the fulfilment of the promise which believers inherit. The omniscience of God is based on a complete foreknowledge of events in the universe. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

For whom did Christ rise from the dead for? Does his resurrection have any relevance to the non-elect? If so, what?

If Jesus is looking forward to fulfillment He must be disappointed by His foreknowledge what happens to who He is dying for.

Jesus resurrection is a declaration to all evil powers that their time is nearing its end. Dread on the part of evil men is not itself evil.

janxharris · Jun 20, 2014

heymikey80 said:
If Jesus is looking forward to fulfillment He must be disappointed by His foreknowledge what happens to who He is dying for.

Since He has know all eternally then your point is moot.

Jesus resurrection is a declaration to all evil powers that their time is nearing its end. Dread on the part of evil men is not itself evil.

Not sure what this has to do with the context of salvation that is Romans 10.

heymikey80 · Jun 22, 2014

janxharris said:
Since He has know all eternally then your point is moot.

Then your point is defeated about limited atonement. At least in limited atonement "God knows who are His." His joy is directed toward their salvation.

"Does God derive any joy in the death of the wicked?" If not, then Hebrews 12:2 expressly states it -- "for the joy set before Him, endured the Cross" -- no dying for the wicked, there. Jesus' intent is thus toward those He saves, and not toward those He does not save.

Oh, and by the way, that's a lack of universality in the intent of the Gospel, in the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

janxharris said:
Not sure what this has to do with the context of salvation that is Romans 10.

"Does his resurrection have any relevance to the non-elect? If so, what?"

You asked a question that was outside Romans 10, you got an answer that was outside Romans 10. Any surprise there? No? Good.

EmSw · Jun 22, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Then your point is defeated about limited atonement. At least in limited atonement "God knows who are His." His joy is directed toward their salvation.

Is man really trying to limit God's atonement? What a shameless act of futility!
What is man, but a speck blowing in the wind.
Does man think he knows God's unlimited, undefinable wisdom and love, and pretend he can limit God with his impertinent, sinful ways and thoughts?

heymikey80 · Jun 22, 2014

EmSw said:
Is man really trying to limit God's atonement? What a shameless act of futility!
What is man, but a speck blowing in the wind.
Does man think he knows God's unlimited, undefinable wisdom and love, and pretend he can limit God with his impertinent, sinful ways and thoughts?

I take God at His Word that He does not save everyone.

A limited atonement actually means nothing more than that.

Arminians are fond of "unlimited" though and so you define an atonement that doesn't atone. But that limits your atonement's power.

I don't think we should limit God's power to atone.

EmSw · Jun 22, 2014

heymikey80 said:
I take God at His Word that He does not save everyone.

And why isn't everyone saved? In every instance it is on account of man's sin, not God condemning beforehand. In fact, Zechariah tells us that God determines, purposes, and deals with man according to his ways and deeds.

His atonement is available to everyone, but man, with his stubborn and proud heart will not listen and obey God truth in His word. It is man's sinful ways which limit the atonement and salvation, not God.

heymikey80 said:
A limited atonement actually means nothing more than that.

RT puts the crux of the limit on God; God's word put the crux of the limit on man's ways and deeds.

heymikey80 said:
Arminians are fond of "unlimited" though and so you define an atonement that doesn't atone. But that limits your atonement's power.

Aren't you fond of 'unlimited' for a sovereign God? Or do you limit His sovereignty with your belief of atonement?

What would keep atonement away from a man who obeys God's word and keeps His laws within his heart and meditates on them day and night?

As I said above, it is man's wicked ways and deeds which limit God's atonement, not God Himself.

heymikey80 said:
I don't think we should limit God's power to atone.

Yet, RT does limit God's power to atone with their beliefs.

heymikey80 · Jun 22, 2014

EmSw said:
And why isn't everyone saved?

You're jumping to why of two limited views, but your view remains limited in effect.

It's strange: Jesus doesn't say this is beyond His capacity to forgive.

EmSw said:
In every instance it is on account of man's sin, not God condemning beforehand.

And of course this is a really poor distinction. Romans 3:9-20 already states everyone has already been condemned on this basis.

No distinction between saved & unsaved.

EmSw said:
In fact, Zechariah tells us that God determines, purposes, and deals with man according to his ways and deeds.

Without grace there is no salvation.

EmSw said:
His atonement is available to everyone, but man, with his stubborn and proud heart will not listen and obey God truth in His word. It is man's sinful ways which limit the atonement and salvation, not God.

If we're looking for human sin to condemn, all have already been condemned. In the past. By the Law. In the Old Testament.

This ain't rocket science. Paul already stated this whole thing in Romans 3:9-20.

EmSw said:
RT puts the crux of the limit on God; God's word put the crux of the limit on man's ways and deeds.

Crux? How ironic.

What sin is beyond the Cross? That's the Crux of the matter. You, not God's word, are putting the crux of the limit on man. Scripture says nothing of the sort, instead it says the opposite.

EmSw said:
Aren't you fond of 'unlimited' for a sovereign God? Or do you limit His sovereignty with your belief of atonement?

I think God's atonement is unlimited in power. But it is applied as God wishes, and so it is not unlimited on all people. Scripture confirms this limit.

EmSw said:
What would keep atonement away from a man who obeys God's word and keeps His laws within his heart and meditates on them day and night?

Where is this person, according to Scripture? Apply Romans 3:9-20, and tell me which of these people you are referring to.

EmSw said:
As I said above, it is man's wicked ways and deeds which limit God's atonement, not God Himself.

If so, then everyone is dead. "There is none righteous, not one."

EmSw said:
Yet, RT does limit God's power to atone with their beliefs.

Nope. God can atone anyone. He has simply said He does not. Or, do you think Scripture is God's words of what He does and how His provisions work?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 23, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Nope. God can atone anyone. He has simply said He does not.

Please provide Scripture that actually says this.

1 Jn 2:2 refutes your claim.

AndOne · Jul 28, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
Please provide Scripture that actually says this.

1 Jn 2:2 refutes your claim.

John 6:64-65 says it.

Also 1 Jn 2:2 does not refute his claim - because as has been clearly established on these boards in the past - the word "world" in that passage refers to all the people groups of the world not all people. If it referred to all people then the onus is on you to explain why all people in the world aren't saved and in fact most reject Jesus.

Paul considered that Christ's resurrection was of universal salvific benefit (2)

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