Who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians?

shturt678s said:

Was in the process of posting on this thread, and Fox news blurted it out this morning - only watch the headlines then off the T.V. (I preach watch the T.V. less than the nominal 2.5 hours daily for Christians thus cannot be that much of a hypocrit). Don't know the rest or even a link? Enjoyed your referenced link. Thank you again my brother.

Old tea tottler Jack

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Thanks for posting about that.
I created a thread on this board over here. It's a board that both Christians and the Heathens can post on ehehe.......should be interesting.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828664/
New Pope opposes legalization of marijuana


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random person said:

Amen, only three nations or cities have ever had a covenant with God, only three cities or nations were ever called "harlot", "harlot", or accused of "whoredoms" in the prophet books from Isaiah to Malachi.

Nineveh's covenant with God - Jonah 3:5-10
Nineveh - "whoredoms" & "harlot" (Nahum 3:4, 1 VERSE!)

Tyre's covenant with God - 1 Kings 5:1-12; 9:13; Amos 1:9
Tyre - "harlot" (Isaiah 23:15-16, 2 VERSES!)

ISRAEL/JERUSALEM - "harlot"; "harlot"; "whoredoms" (57 VERSES!!!!)
Isaiah 1:21

Jeremiah 2:20; 3:1-3,6,8; 5:7

Ezekiel 6:9; 16:15-17,22,25-26,28,30-31,33-36,41; 20:30; 23:5,7-8,11,14,17-19,27,29-30,35,43-44; 43:7,9

Hosea 1:2; 2:2,4-5; 3:3; 4:10-15,18; 5:3-4; 6:10; 9:1

Might I make a suggestion to all board members, jot this down in your notes at the back of your bibles's for further reference.

And yes, no other nation or city were labeled a harlot or harlot or charged with whoredom in all the books between Isaiah through to Malachi. You wont find even ONE!

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Israel's covenant still stands .. God law is not abolished yet.. Gods law will yet judge sinners who break it's laws.. Because people still keep to the law.. They have not put aside the law for whatever reason

Mystery Babylon may have ties to Talmud and Torah laws ..she is the harlot to rise over the 10 kingdoms

Babylon is just one of many cities that will put themselves under the Talmud laws in the future .. Many cities will fall in the last days because of this

And the religion aspect called mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the 10 kingdoms


They will serve for a season .. But when the man of sin comes.. They will turn on her

dfw69 said:

Israel's covenant still stands .. God law is not abolished yet.. Gods law will yet judge sinners who break it's laws.. Because people still keep to the law.. They have not put aside the law for whatever reason

Mystery Babylon may have ties to Talmud and Torah laws ..she is the harlot to rise over the 10 kingdoms

Babylon is just one of many cities that will put themselves under the Talmud laws in the future .. Many cities will fall in the last days because of this

And the religion aspect called mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the 10 kingdoms


They will serve for a season .. But when the man of sin comes.. They will turn on her

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What are you rambling about?

We live by the righteousness of faith now, Christ took the law and nailed it to His cross.

Do you want to live by the Law? Think again, Galatians 5:1-6!


Jesus came to fulfill the whole law (moral and ceremonial) and that none of the law would be abolished until it was ALL fulfilled... IN CHRIST!

dfw69 said:

Israel's covenant still stands .. God law is not abolished yet.. Gods law will yet judge sinners who break it's laws.. Because people still keep to the law..
They have not put aside the law for whatever reason

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Please, do not let this turn into an OC Law thread. Discuss it over on this other board. Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/f1131/
Sabbath and The Law The Sabbath and the Law forum is for discussing a variety of topics related to Sabbath day worship and keeping the law

http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-60/#post58074068
The law is for dead people.







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LittleLambofJesus said:

Please, do not let this turn into an OC Law thread. Discuss it over on this other board. Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/f1131/
Sabbath and The Law The Sabbath and the Law forum is for discussing a variety of topics related to Sabbath day worship and keeping the law

http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-60/#post58074068
The law is for dead people.

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I ain't trying to lloj


Tell you what ..if anyone wants to debate the law with me..I'm just gonna ignore .. Settles that ..cool?

IIThess.2:7, "get out of the way....." The relative clause: ".....whom the Lord Jesus shall make away with . . .and shall abolish," should not lead us to think that the moment the lawless one is revealed he will also at once be destroyed. This clause states only the final fate of the Antichrist.

Old Jack's opinion

shturt678s said:

IIThess.2:7, "get out of the way....." The relative clause: ".....whom the Lord Jesus shall make away with . . .and shall abolish," should not lead us to think that the moment the lawless one is revealed he will also at once be destroyed. This clause states only the final fate of the Antichrist.

Old Jack's opinion

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I agree, Daniel's prophecy personifies the antichrist as the "Little Horn" which arose among the ten, which saw the rise of them immediately after the fall of the fourth beast, the Roman Empire, according to the testimony of the ECF. This, of course, was one of the two pillars of the whole Protestant Reformation, the second pillar being "salvation by grace through faith alone." They interpreted these prophecies as stating that the rise of the "man of sin" would take place among the nations that arose out of the fallen Roman Empire and then would continue down the stream of time until the destruction of it "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

I haven't read this entire thread but I have to say that I think that the restrainer is the bottomless pit. Revelation 11 clearly says that the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. Therefore, the only thing that can be restraining him is the bottomless pit, in my opinion.

The question, however, is why it's taking him so long to get here. Or is it?

Phoneman777 said:

Very good question. The idea that the "Holy Spirit" or the "Holy Spirit in the Church" is the Restrainer was virtually unknown to the early church and most certainly not found among the Reformers during the Protestant Reformation. It is a relatively new idea that has gained much acceptance as of late b/c modern prophecy teachers willfully ignore what the ECFs said. England's greatest prophecy teacher, H. Grattan Guinness, reveals who Paul identified to them as the Restrainer in his book, Romanism and the Reformation:

"Paul distinctly tells us that he knew, and that the Thessalonians knew, what that hindrance was, and that it was then in existence. The early Church, through the writings of the Fathers, tells us what it knew upon the subject, and with remarkable unanimity affirms that this "let," or hindrance, was the ROMAN EMPIRE as governed by the Caesars; that while the Caesars held imperial power, it was impossible for the predicted antichrist to arise, and that on the fall of the Caesars he would arise. Here we have a point on which Paul affirms the existence of knowledge in the Christian Church. The early Church knew, he says, what this hindrance was. The early Church tells us what it did know upon the subject, and no one in these days can be in a position to contradict its testimony as to what Paul had, by word of mouth only, told the Thessalonians. It is a point on which ancient tradition ALONE can have any authority. Modern speculation is POSTIVELY IMPERTINENT on such a subject."

ECF writings identify the Restrainer as the Roman Empire, which paints an entirely different picture of endtime prophecy than what is being popularly taught today. For a detailed list of what the ECF wrote on this subject, Google "Church Fathers Were Historicist – H. Grattan Guinness" and it should provide a link to it.

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Good info and thanks.


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LittleLambofJesus said:

Since this is a rather controversial verse among Christians today, I thought I would make a thread on it since this other one was closed for inactivity

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restrainer ?

in the OT the law was the restrainer

proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

However .... according to Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


question is what is this better hope ? what did OT saints look for?

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us ... He was promise to be with us. Till JC comes for us!

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

Restrain - To hold back or keep in check; control; prevent; to limit or restrict.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 refers to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. This must occur and there must be a temple for it to be fulfilled. So who is holding back that revealing of the son of perdition "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" but is the work of Satan? Who fights Satan? Daniel tells you all of this in Daniel 12.

Can not an angel of the Lord hold Satan back until he is taken away?


1 Chronicles 21:15 (NKJV) - "And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the LORD looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

Isaiah 48:9 (NKJV) - "“For My name’s sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off."

Daniel 4:35 (NKJV) - "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NKJV) - "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV) -
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness.
Like the stars forever and ever."

Revelation 22:8-11 (NKJV) - "8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Notice that the angel said "...I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets...". Angels have appeared to mankind as men themselves. Read Genesis concerning the two men who appeared with the Lord before Abraham and then were referred to as two angels when they went to Sodom.

Revelation 22:16 (NKJV) - "16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

The angel of the Lord! Michael fights Satan...on earth as it is in Heaven!

Revelation 12:7-9 (NKJV) - "7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

What does everyone think about the bottomless pit being the restrainer?

Nope ... Holy Spirit which has marching orders to Help us .. Jn 14-17

Paul says he told the Thessalonians who the Restrainer was, and that they knew exactly what was preventing the rise of Antichrist.

A simple consultation of the writings of the ECF will tell us precisely what Paul told them, so finding out the Restrainer's identity is not the problem. The problem is when people find out that what Paul told the ECF doesn't match up with their view of eschatology, well, we can't have that, can we? So, we throw what the ECF said Paul told them in the garbage and revert back to our cherished charts and graphs and what this writer or that preacher says today INSTEAD of throwing all THAT out and just accepting what Paul told the ECF.

Paul told the ECF that the ROMAN EMPIRE (Western) was the Restrainer and when the it fell, the Antichrist would rise soon after. Can you guess who it is?

Phoneman777 said:

Paul says he told the Thessalonians who the Restrainer was, and that they knew exactly what was preventing the rise of Antichrist.

A simple consultation of the writings of the ECF will tell us precisely what Paul told them, so finding out the Restrainer's identity is not the problem. The problem is when people find out that what Paul told the ECF doesn't match up with their view of eschatology, well, we can't have that, can we? So, we throw what the ECF said Paul told them in the garbage and revert back to our cherished charts and graphs and what this writer or that preacher says today INSTEAD of throwing all THAT out and just accepting what Paul told the ECF.

Paul told the ECF that the ROMAN EMPIRE (Western) was the Restrainer and when the it fell, the Antichrist would rise soon after. Can you guess who it is?

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Where can we find that in the ECF?

Rev20 said:

Where can we find that in the ECF?

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Pretty much everywhere. Pkease search "Early Church Fathers Were Historists - H Grattan Guinness". and start reading at point 5. The ECF couldn't agree on hardly anything, but remarkably, with one voice, with one consent, with spectacular unanimity, and without a shred of disputation, they declare this to be so. But because it strikes at the heart of Futurism, which says the restrainer is even yet restraining, and it is difficult for people to give up cherished beliefs, most refuse to accept the ECF testimony.

Phoneman777 said:

Pretty much everywhere. Pkease search "Early Church Fathers Were Historists - H Grattan Guinness". and start reading at point 5. The ECF couldn't agree on hardly anything, but remarkably, with one voice, with one consent, with spectacular unanimity, and without a shred of disputation, they declare this to be so. But because it strikes at the heart of Futurism, which says the restrainer is even yet restraining, and it is difficult for people to give up cherished beliefs, most refuse to accept the ECF testimony.

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Thanks, I'll check that out. I have believed for quite a while that the so-called "man of sin" was a first century apostate, living in the last days, and was destroyed around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

This link lists some of Guinness' books for download:

https://archive.org/advancedsearch.php

To get a complete list, search only for "Guinness" and sift through those that are found.

LittleLambOfJesus said:

Since this is a rather controversial verse among Christians today, I thought I would make a thread on it since this other one was closed for inactivity.

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Bro in Christ said:

restrainer ?

in the OT the law was the restrainer

proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

However .... according to Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


question is what is this better hope ? what did OT saints look for?

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us ... He was promise to be with us. Till JC comes for us!

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

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It is the Church, the Body of Christ, that is the restrainer. Once it is taken out of the way, via the rapture, the Holy Spirit will still be on the earth to draw men to Christ. God's sending of the Holy Spirit was not temporary.

Dispy said:

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It is the Church, the Body of Christ, that is the restrainer. Once it is taken out of the way, via the rapture, the Holy Spirit will still be on the earth to draw men to Christ. God's sending of the Holy Spirit was not temporary.

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Yet when we are raptures the holy spirit is in heaven with us.... Rev 4

The father takes that job like he did with Peter in Matt