I'm a bit confused

Danny777 said:

When bowing is a cultural greeting it's different because everyone understands its a greeting. Buddhists are not "greeting" a plastic statue when they bow before it - they are paying homage to it..!

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Even so, paying homage doesn't deify someone or something.

It's just a public expression of respect.

MorkandMindy said:

Greetings Danny, Ian, Watchman, Nigel, Tywin, and Oopsy Daisy and thank you for taking an interest in what is still for me a very real ongoing problem.



What I discovered this morning in church as I looked around at the other very good people there, was that to become a better person I can not just think about the words I'm hearing in the sermon, or the Buddhist words I had listened to earlier that morning from Ajahn Brahm.

Words are essential but not sufficient.


What I discovered is I can change most effectively by becoming like a person, and that has to be a real person I've seen whether in real life or on video but enough to get a feeling that I really do know that person.

Nuns have a Mother Superior, monks an Abbot, churches have elders, and frankly there are examples we can choose to follow in many different places. It is easier even to try to become like the Dr. Who (among other things) actor David Tennant, or Carl Sagan than to copy something abstract.


There is a lot of mention of real human messengers in scripture. I just opened to an epistle and there were people going out into different parts of the World taking a message, it would have been simpler just to write it all out and give the scroll to a trader who was going out that way, but no, actual believers went.

I'm not interested in any kind of decision as to whether Buddhist or Christian is better, I suspect those who want that sort of face off don't have an adequate understanding of at least one of those traditions.

What I am interested in is being transformed into a better person.

And what I found today was having a real example to follow is to me far more effective than just listening to words.

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The ONLY example I try to follow is that of Jesus Christ - I can't see how anyone else come close to the sinless Son of God...

Tywin Lannister said:

Even so, paying homage doesn't deify someone or something.

It's just a public expression of respect.

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Maybe, but it still seems a bit odd to bow in front of a piece of plastic and express respect to it. I'm not saying that only Buddhists are guilty of this - many Christians bow to images and statues...the Bible is packed with warnings against this...

MorkandMindy said:

I was prodded into Christianity by the visit of two Campus Crusade for Christ missionaries at University over here in England. They were both American. That start seems to have coloured my whole Christian life. I was told that when I was in Christ I became a new creation, and the diagram I was shown was changing from being an non Christian with I at the centre to a Christian with Christ at the centre.

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It's funny how a diagram with Christ at the centre is still all about "me".

Have you looked at Virtue Reborn (Tom Wright)?

MorkandMindy said:

*snip*
I have tried the super-spiritual route as many here on CF have; accept the Holy Spirit and you become a new creation. For me it didn't work and that is the case with everyone with whom I've had a long term acquaintance. It all seems to work but 30 years later there is no improvement, usually the opposite.

*snip*

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Hiya Mork,

What is your understanding of the Biblical Term 'New Creation'?

I'm wondering if there lies your key, so to speak.

In my case for many years I did not understand what it meant to be a new creation in Christ. It's only been recently that I can appreciate it and I've become more laid back in my identity as a Christian.

I'll probably be back online again come weekend.

Here is a Story that I heard told by Catholic Apologist, Michael Voris:

'I was in the presence of Archbishop Fulton Sheen one day and he was talking to us about the Mass that had just happened. Suddenly, this man walked towards him clutching a Book. He said to the Archbishop:

"Archbishop Sheen, I've just returned from the Far East and I've written a Book combining the best of Catholicism with Far Eastern Mysticism. Would you like to have a look at it ?"

Before the man had got an Inch closer to him, Archbishop Sheen turned to him and shouted:

"Get out ! Get out ! The Catholic faith is a gift from Almighty God and I will not have you polluting it ! Get out !"

The man promptly left.'

Christianity is already perfect. We don't need to supplement it with anything else.

MorkandMindy said:

I think you have it there, also, that is you have the origin of the problem.


'17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'



I understood it as a statement in the past tense: 'old things have passed away and all things are now new'

And the Campus Crusade evangelists (a type of salesmen) who were evangelising me insisted that was correct. But then they also insisted the Earth was less than 10,000 years old, so they really didn't know very much at all about anything.



I now see the same text as meaning that the old things are - in the present - passing away and already all things are becoming new.

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Got you, I think. (still battling some kind of cold)

So instead of a thing which is done away with are you thinking now that it's like a work in progress? I can see how you would see that.

The other thing I was wondering is your understanding of "the things" used in the verse together with the phrase "new creature". Do you consider them as being the same or two different things?

Sorry for so many questions - I don't like to assume and with my foggy head I don't want to misunderstand you.

I cross referenced 2 Cor 5:17 with a few other Bible translations below:

Amplified Bible said:

17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!

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CJB said:

17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation — the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new!

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1599 Geneva Bible said:

17 [a]Therefore if any man be in Christ, let him be a new creature. Old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new.

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There are some footnotes from the Geneva Bible which were somewhat useful:

a. 2 Corinthians 5:17 An exhortation for every man which is renewed with the spirit of Christ, to meditate heavenly things, and not earthly.

b. 2 Corinthians 5:17 As a thing made anew of God, for though a man be not newly created when God giveth him the spirit of regeneration, but only his qualities are changed, yet notwithstanding it pleased the holy Ghost to speak so, to teach us, that we must attribute all things to the glory of God: not that we are as stocks or blocks: but because God creates in us, both the will to will well, and the power to do well.

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I'm feeling as though I'm about to waffle but I'll try to keep it concise.

When I pondered about this I couldn't get my head around what I asked you above.

So I dug around a few different translations to see what was being said here. From 2 Cor 5:17 I concluded what the evangelists had said in that when we are saved we are a completely new creation (not our physiological body but our spirit). In 2012 I did a study on it but it is too big to post here. A verse that helped me see this:

Romans 8:10 - "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Our mind/behaviour/learned life experience logic needs to catch up with this fact but we do not need to seek a solution for this catchup in another person/or philosophy but in God's Word e.g. Gal 5:22, or in my case James 3:10 whenever a white-van-man cuts me up in the car, plus God directly (James 1:5-6). I guess on some issues it's a case of unlearning bad habits and relearning good habits. It is the catchup process which is a lifetime of learning but it does not detract from the fact that you are a still new creation.

Does that help a little?

As to the other matter as to the earth being less than 10,000 years old, I'd keep that separate to the Bible verses and let the various theories fight it out with each other.

MorkandMindy said:

Not a problem. I had a good long think about it over the vacation driving long hours and having sleepless nights, and realised what the clear distinction is between Western / Christian thinking and Eastern / Buddhist, Jainist thinking.

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I spent some time in the east, I was in a book shop, and these westerners were going on about eastern religion, and the Indian guy had to listen to these people with nothing better to do than sit in a second hand bookshop talking about the merits of all the various eastern religions - and I thought, out here, people are interested in scraping up enough dough to make ends meet - its the rich westerners who are interested in all that religion.

MorkandMindy said:

Yes, that is exactly what I concluded - it hadn't worked so give it more time and eventually it will.

b. 2 Corinthians 5:17 As a thing made anew of God, for though a man be not newly created when God giveth him the spirit of regeneration, but only his qualities are changed, yet notwithstanding it pleased the holy Ghost to speak so, to teach us, that we must attribute all things to the glory of God: not that we are as stocks or blocks: but because God creates in us, both the will to will well, and the power to do well.

[*]The footnote makes the crucial point, that God produces in the regenerate both the will and the ability to be regenerated.

[*]But I'm not sure how to fit this in with scripture for example:

Romans 7.19: I don’t do the good that I want to do, but I do the evil that I don’t want to do.
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Gotcha!

Because we are a new creation it bothers us when we mess up hence Rom 7:19 but I love this chapter because our answers are in the subsequent verses especially:

Rom 7:24-25 said:

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

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It takes a while but eventually I'd gotten to a point where in prayer I would address those occasions when I mess up, but when I confess what I have done I also ask Him directly to assist me in changing what is learned behaviour that is within me to conform to the new creation that He has rebuilt in me.

Basically there is a clash between the two - our learnt behaviour and this "new us".

A loose analogy I saw recently was the changeover I had to do with an old laptop I've got.

Ever since we purchased this laptop 10 years ago, we had Win XP with all the device drivers attached to it. As you know Win XP became obsolete and MS ceased doing the security updates in April. Those who continue using this OS will probably be vulnerable to system attacks. I recently installed Ubuntu which imvho is far far superior to any Win operating system. However I am still tweaking the current devices so that they can match up with this different operating system. Example, I had to hunt around for a sound driver which would match up with the sound card etc.

So using the above - we say our prayer of salvation, in our heart we mean it and believe it (re: Rom 10:9). We now have the 'new OS'.

However some of our devices (mindset/habits) are accustomed to the old operating system and there are occasions where we behave/carry out actions in line with that (references in the Bible to 'the flesh') old system purely on the basis that we are unaware of the expectations of the new OS. We basically have to unlearn this and re-learn new habits.

Solution - 1) Prov 4:23 i.e. watch what we expose ourselves to. In some translations it says that we must jealously guard our heart because it influences our thoughts and processes/decisions. Having small kids has restricted what I play and what I watch to the degree that I am now unable to watch any cert 15 movies let alone any cert 18. It shocks me lol! So this is 11 years of being restricted to CBBC, CBeebies etc. But...in a way it has served to act as an involuntary information detox for me. Things before that I wouldn't even notice, like what I see on the news, I now notice - it's like I see it through more innocent eyes. So without the clutter of Eastenders and other grey-matter killing programs I am retraining myself by restricting such drivel.

2) James 1:21 (which is I think the stage that you're working through now). As well as making that decision to not do what we've done before, we resolve to find out how we can attempt to live more Godly lives, the source of which is the Bible. Constantly contemplating, digging, studying what we read. Questioning what we read, looking into the original languages to establish deeper understanding. This contributes to changing our current mindsets.

3) Challenging and questioning our current beliefs and adjusting whenever we cement any new concepts - as an athiest this was the hardest thing for me to do . I was very comfortable with my knowledge and current understanding based on my school/college life experiences, but I was very challenged to change it. I had to - on occasions - swallow my pride and entertain new concepts.

Son is currently recording selfies where he is screaming into my tablet. Lost what else I was going to say

But I hope this also helps, Mork (not the screaming selfies which I will have to delete when I can prise the tablet from his hands).

God bless - it's exciting to see that you are looking into this.